2019.06.11 11:30 - Dreams - Taking a Break?

 

The guardian for this meeting was Zen. Aggers did the log.

 

                     

 

Riddle Sideways: I have a quick question on dreams tho

Tura Brezoianu listens

Riddle Sideways: have had a lot of replaying of life events and not sure if those are dreams?

Riddle Sideways: they seem to be exact replays

Riddle Sideways: without illogics

Zen (zen.arado): but what else could they be?

Alma di Masala (almadi.masala): if they are occurring in REM sleep, I'd say they are dreams

Tura Brezoianu: If you're asleep, they're dreams, I'd say

Riddle Sideways: thinking those would not be "Dreams". well can't really tell if was asleep

Zen (zen.arado): Unless you're just sitting replaying Old events in your mind but you would know that wouldn't you?

Riddle Sideways: during daytime yes

Zen (zen.arado): if you are having a nap during the day you can get into that hypnagogic state where it is hard to tell reality from dreams

Riddle Sideways: and even wakeful times of night, know it is not dreaming

Tura Brezoianu: Is this recent events, or things from a long time ago?

Zen (zen.arado): good question Riddle

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): hi Agatha

Agatha Macbeth: Evening all

Zen (Zen Arado): Hi Agatha

Zen (Zen Arado): I suppose it can hinge on how close REM and waking states are to each other

Riddle Sideways: back, Hey Aggers, more chaos in RL

Agatha Macbeth wonders if Rid has a sore bottom

Riddle Sideways: time to go,

Riddle Sideways: by All dreamers

Riddle Sideways is offline.

Agatha Macbeth: Did i come an hour late?

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): no

Tura Brezoianu: Riddle had RL business crop up

Agatha Macbeth looks puzzled

Agatha Macbeth: Oh

Zen (Zen Arado): Should we have a break soon?

Zen (Zen Arado): I think we did last year?

Agatha Macbeth: I only just arrived!

Zen (Zen Arado): People going on holidays and things like that

Agatha Macbeth: Dunno

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): there might be some Tuesdays when I can't be here over the summer, but not too many

Ari (Arisia Vita) is online.

Tura Brezoianu: My holidays are likely to be mid-August to mid-September. I'm not expecting to be away before then.

Zen (Zen Arado): I can be here most Tuesdays but just feel it would be nice to have a break and come back in September

Agatha Macbeth: Starting when?

Zen (Zen Arado): I don't know

Zen (Zen Arado): I'm just asking the rest of you to see how you feel

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): There's one Tuesday in late Aug. when I know I can't be here

Zen (Zen Arado): if you wanted a break or not

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I'm OK with taking a summer break

Zen (Zen Arado): perhaps we could miss July and August?

Agatha Macbeth: If you want

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): it would give me more time to spend outdoors, which is nice during the summer

Zen (Zen Arado): I started a book by Montague Ullman

Agatha Macbeth: Tracy's brother?

Zen (Zen Arado): yes Alma

Zen (Zen Arado): :-) he was the teacher of the guy in the video I posted, William R Stimson

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): that was a good video

Zen (Zen Arado): so perhaps we could take a slightly different direction

Agatha Macbeth: Oh thanks Zen

Zen (Zen Arado): he has some great advice about running dream groups

Zen (Zen Arado): I only started the book today

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): what is the book title?

Bruce (Bruce Mowbray) is online.

Zen (Zen Arado): ' appreciating dreams'

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): nice title

Zen (Zen Arado): I see he has books about dreaming and telepathy

Zen (Zen Arado): Stimson's book isn't on Kindle unfortunately but I might buy it too

Zen (Zen Arado): it makes it difficult to quote then though

Zen (Zen Arado): can I give you a quote from Ullman about safety in groups?

Zen (Zen Arado): I think it is quite important

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): yes

Tura Brezoianu: go ahead

 

Zen (Zen Arado): A dreamer who shares a dream is diving into water the depth of which is not known in advance. Thus, there are two reasons why safety (hereafter referred to as the safety factor) is so important. First, the content often touches on deeply personal matters that in the ordinary course of events we would prefer to keep private. Second, it is necessary to minimize the risk involved in that there is no way of knowing in advance where the initial disclosure might lead. In a later section, attention will be called to the way in which this safety factor is built into each stage. In a general way it rests on three important guidelines:

Zen (Zen Arado): 1. The dreamer always has the option of sharing or not sharing the dream. That decision is his and his alone. No outside pressure from any source or for any reason should try to influence that decision. When a decision is made on this basis to share the dream, it signifies that for the dreamer the risk of self-exposure is less than the desire to discover what the dream has to say.

Zen (Zen Arado): 2. The dreamer controls the level of self-exposure. There is no pressure by anyone at any time on the dreamer to go any further in sharing his personal life than he feels comfortable with. It is the dreamer’s responsibility to set his own limits and to monitor them accordingly.

Zen (Zen Arado): 3. The process is subject to the dreamer’s control and can be stopped by the dreamer at any point, with or without any explanation to the group. The group is there as a helping agency only to the extent that the dreamer wants that help. The dreamer is not there to satisfy the curiosity of the members of the group or to meet their concern about their skills at dream work. Caution is essential in dream work, and that caution must be exercised by all concerned—the dreamer, the leader, and the group.

 

Ullman, Montague. Appreciating Dreams (p. 7). Cosimo, Inc.. Kindle Edition.

Zen (Zen Arado): done

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): very sensible guidelines

Zen (Zen Arado): yes I think so

Zen (Zen Arado): this idea about sharing personal life is important I think

Tura Brezoianu: yes

Zen (Zen Arado): I feel a bit uncomfortable doing that when I know everyone can read it online

Zen (Zen Arado): and I wonder if it stops people revealing anything but pretty standard dreams

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): yes, I always try to remind myself of that fact

Zen (Zen Arado): what do you think? I

Tura Brezoianu: Not recording the sessions? I think in the beginning the dream sessions weren't recorded.

Zen (Zen Arado): yes

Agatha Macbeth: I can always take out anything anyone doesn't want published

Zen (Zen Arado): That's true I guess

Agatha Macbeth: (As is true with any log)

Zen (Zen Arado): but it wouldn't leave much if we didn't want our dreams published

Agatha Macbeth: There's the rub

Zen (Zen Arado): and the reader wouldn't know what we were talking about

Tura Brezoianu: I think if there's a general concern, it would be better to not record the dreams rather than it being up to people to say they don't want theirs recorded.

Zen (Zen Arado): or could guess from the comments

Zen (Zen Arado): yes

Zen (Zen Arado): it's just something that struck me lately

Tura Brezoianu: A general outline of topics discussed would be ok, relevant quotes from books etc.

Zen (Zen Arado): and from reading those guidelines

Zen (Zen Arado): yes I agree Tura

Zen (Zen Arado): we had this problem in the original face group

Zen (Zen Arado): and we also agreed not to reveal anything confided in the group

Zen (Zen Arado): so we could talk about deeper things in our lives

Zen (Zen Arado): how do you all feel about just having a summary as Tura suggests?

Tura Brezoianu: I think I recall seeing some old dream session logs that were like that

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): or maybe share the log with only regular members of this group, rather than posting on the wiki?

Zen (Zen Arado): Yes we could do that too Alma

Zen (Zen Arado): we did that quite a lot in the original face group

Zen (Zen Arado): somebody kept a log and sent it by email to the other members

Zen (Zen Arado): that way Eliza could get it

Zen (Zen Arado): maybe we can carry on as usual this week and think about it for next week?

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): ok

Zen (Zen Arado): Any dreams to report?

Agatha Macbeth: Seeing as how I never remember anything anyways this is all pretty irrelevant to me

Tura Brezoianu: I had a rather uneventful but lucid one.

Zen (Zen Arado): Okay want to share Tura?

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala) listens

Tura Brezoianu: I didn't manage to record much, but here it is.

 

Tura Brezoianu: I was in Norwich, out of doors. I realised I was dreaming. So I started looking really closely at things and at people. Deciding who I wanted to interact with and who I didn't. But I don't think I did interact with anyone, and I don't remember any of the visual details.

Tura Brezoianu: Then it seemed that in waking life I was one of a team of people doing research on dreaming.

Tura Brezoianu: Then I was looking around at the dream world, noticing that I wasn't looking with my real eyes at my bedroom.

 

Tura Brezoianu: And thats all I recorded.

Tura Brezoianu: done

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): cool! sounds like you really were lucid

Zen (Zen Arado): thanks Tura

Zen (Zen Arado): it reminds me of when I lived in Sydney Australia

Tura Brezoianu: And here I am, in a group of people studying dreams.

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): yes, we are sort of a research team :)

Zen (Zen Arado): I didn't have many friends at the time and you couldn't say hello to people or start a conversation easily unlike in Ireland

Zen (Zen Arado): yes we are dream pioneers :-)

Zen (Zen Arado): it can be pretty difficult to know who you want to interact with just by looking at them?

Zen (Zen Arado): You actually do have to interact before you know what they are like

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): as true in dreams as in waking life

Zen (Zen Arado): there is a risk there isn't there?

Zen (Zen Arado): Yes

Bruce (Bruce Mowbray) is offline.

Zen (Zen Arado): I don't get out enough now and find I don't have so many friends

Zen (Zen Arado): I seem to interact with people on a professional basis like careworkers, nurses, checkout operators, waitresses :-)

Zen (Zen Arado): it is so nice to have true friends come to visit

Zen (Zen Arado): sorry I'm talking too much

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): not at all

Zen (Zen Arado): well it's just what a dream brings up for me I don't know if it's helpful or not

Zen (Zen Arado): the dream

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): when the dream is lucid, then we have to make a conscious choice about who to interact with and how

Zen (Zen Arado): yes you can actually make decisions in a dream

Zen (Zen Arado): or know that you are making a decision?

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): if you don't know you are dreaming, then you automatically react the way you would if awake

Zen (Zen Arado): Interesting

Zen (Zen Arado): any other dreams?

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): nothing much

Zen (Zen Arado): Here's a short snippet I had

Alessa Tzal is online.

Zen (Zen Arado): I am in a big conference room sitting round a table with some guys who are sceptical of climate change. I have found some new considerations to put to them but they just groan as soon as I start. I don't know the outcome because I wake up

Zen (Zen Arado): done

Zen (Zen Arado): I am doing a course on climate change

Zen (Zen Arado): so it's obviously mostly from that

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): are there skeptics in the class?

Zen (Zen Arado): well it looks like it

Zen (Zen Arado): perhaps it is pointing out just how many people aren't interested

Zen (Zen Arado): or like me a bit apathetic

Zen (Zen Arado): some of the statistics are scary when you look at them

Zen (Zen Arado): just at 2° C rise in global temperature and my area will be underwater

Zen (Zen Arado): according to some projections

Zen (Zen Arado): this course doesn't let you off lightly

Alessa Tzal is offline.

Zen (Zen Arado): they ask you to make an action plan and implement it

Agatha Macbeth: Doesn't sound like it

Zen (Zen Arado): see it's okay until it comes to having to actually do something ourselves

Zen (Zen Arado): I didn't think about my consumption of electronic gadgets affecting the environment

Zen (Zen Arado): and I found my carbon footprint a lot higher than I thought it would be

Zen (Zen Arado): anyway, it won't affect me much but that's being selfish I guess

Agatha Macbeth: Just don't say we...

Zen (Zen Arado): how do you feel about climate change?

Agatha Macbeth: I'll vote against

Agatha Macbeth: The climate can change pretty well without any help from us, just look at ice ages

Tura Brezoianu: Seems real enough, but I don't actually do anything about it. It seems too big for any scrimping and saving on the individual level to matter.

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I think I'm kind of fatalistic

Zen (Zen Arado): Yes

Agatha Macbeth: I think pollution's a far more immediate problem

Agatha Macbeth: Not to mention overpopulation

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I don't see how human societies and governments can take bold enough action to make much difference at this point

Zen (Zen Arado): but those are part of the problem too

Zen (Zen Arado): I agree Alma

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): sad, but it will be the next generation that will have to grapple with the consequences

Tura Brezoianu: Switching to nuclear power would be the biggest saver of carbon emissions.

Zen (Zen Arado): it's good that they are switching to wind power and other renewables

Zen (Zen Arado): I am watching the series about Chernobyl at the moment

Zen (Zen Arado): it doesn't make me feel too confident about nuclear power!

Agatha Macbeth: Chernobyl drop off

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): one disaster or another, take your pick

Tura Brezoianu: You just have to operate the plants right. And not build them in tsunami territory,

Agatha Macbeth: What would Karen Silkwood say...

Zen (Zen Arado): It's just that human errors can be so catastrophic in this area

Agatha Macbeth: Or any area

Zen (Zen Arado): anyway careworkers are here

Zen (Zen Arado): thanks for sharing

Agatha Macbeth: Bless 'em

Zen (Zen Arado): byee

Agatha Macbeth: TC Zenny

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): bye all, see you next time :)

Zen (Zen Arado) is offline.

Tura Brezoianu: bye Zen

Agatha Macbeth waveth

Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): thanks for sharing, dreamers