13-15 - Dancing conversation

The scribe for this period was Wester Kiranov. The order of quoted conversations may have been altered for more clarity, and typos were corrected.

The loveliest thing about these conversations is not what is said exactly, but how the conversation flows, dances, from one person back to another and another. Of course there are rough patches, misunderstandings, conversations that go nowhere, but very often it just works. Serious sometimes, playful at others, until the playfulness and the seriousness merge and everyone is smiling.

So, what did we talk about?

ropes
Pema Pera: . . . there is no way to get back on
Pema Pera: since there is no way to fall off
Pema Pera: but we think often that we have fallen off
Eliza Madrigal: :) since there is no rope
Pema Pera: and no us either :)
Eliza Madrigal: nothing at all
Pema Pera: yet we have to see that -- declaring it to be so would be abstract and not really useful

group dynamics
Pema Pera: it seems that PaB as a whole is going through a wave of new energy
Pema Pera: interesting, isn't it, how groups have moods like individuals have

muddy waters
Wester Kiranov: I think we all are here to help each other unmuddy our waters
Corvuscorva Nightfire: or..to listen as we each unmuddy our own!
Wester Kiranov: or find that there isn't any difference between our own and others'
Fefonz Quan: (or throw mud across the pool :))

spiritual encounters
Mickorod Renard: If one has a spiritual encounter, it is deeply personal and no doubt individual
Fefonz Quan: encounter suggests someone else is involved
Wol Euler: God perhaps? or Being?
Fefonz Quan: well God is not on my list, and Being is not someone (and surely not else ;-))

Seeing the world as fiction
Pema Pera: would anyone like to comment about the pros and cons of "seeing the world as a fiction" ?
Pila Mulligan: my usual reaction to describing reality as a fiction is to disagree, as I see reality as being exactly what it seems to be -- but in this context it seems to serve a valuable purpose.
Stim Morane: Yes, Pila. We turn ourselves into fictions by being caught up in representations beyond what's useful. But we are not in fact fictions.
Storm Nordwind: A danger of seeing it as a fiction, especially for story-tellers, is that you may try to create your own fiction in the belief that it harms no one else. That could be catastrophic.
Stim Morane: Yes, Storm, I agree. This trap is commonly sprung.
Qt Core: another danger if reality is fiction.... why should I involve myself in it, it is not worth the pain. Even if reality is real some (and myself too sometimes) wonder if getting involved in it have some sense.
Fefonz Quan: or it can just get meaningless
aurel Miles: maybe because fiction is often at least as true as "fact"
Stim Morane: Yes, Aurel. "Fiction" is an ambiguous term here. It can refer to some of humanity's best attempts to express and experience many essential aspects of existence, and is much more revealing than many matters of ordinary fact.
Fefonz Quan: I would like to say about this Doing, that my main concern with this fiction/non fiction, is because when I practice appearances, sometimes it leads me to feel very distanced from things and people, like they are part of a movie (including my body at times).
Stim Morane: Yes, that was part of my concern too.
Fefonz Quan: and it shows that the feeling of 'everything is unreal' can be experienced in our practices and I guess there is something wrong with it.
Stim Morane: Better to go the other way. Being more fully engaged.

Openness
Stim Morane: in higher time, there is no "existence", but rather openness.
Stim Morane: it is boundless, in a way that also welcomes boundaries.
Stim Morane: true openness is not picky.
Stim Morane: we don't need to see things as appearances in order to lighten things up
Stim Morane: the things themselves are light, open

Debate itself
Resting Thor: we'd have to pretend to disagree to debate it
Pila Mulligan: :)
Threedee Shepherd: :)
Eos Amaterasu: It's way too easy to disagree - words are slippery

Maturation
Threedee Shepherd: When I was a young reductionist (by training) I thought Varela's writings were crazy if not irrelevant. he has become much better since then ;>
Pila Mulligan: how so Threedee?
Eos Amaterasu: Like wine
Pila Mulligan: ahh, matured :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Threedee Shepherd: Yes, I hope I did ^.^

Logos vs. dharma
How PaB fits in with Bönpo
Islam vs Buddhism
Whether to have a PaB retreat center, and where to have it
Landowning in SL
What we did at Easter
Australian weather
Facebook settings

and of course we've been trying on bunny ears.