19-21 - Play as Being Cafe

The woman walks from the windy street into the bright, warm café; she hears the bells hanging on the door handle bang as the glass door is pushed shut behind her by the wind. She walks up to the shining display counter, “What would you like today?” asks the friendly server standing behind it. The servers face shifts to resemble many people that the woman vaguely recognizes, but the woman is aware that she will not be able to say later what the server looked like. “What do you recommend?” asks the woman, hungrily eyeing the huge display of juicy-looking pies and cakes above and below the counters. “Well, they’re all delicious.” the server says, “but it depends on what you have a taste for, it depends on what you need”. The woman makes her selection, and then turns to the large room and looks for a free table to sit down. She becomes conscious for the first time of the  many conversational threads swirling around her. The murmurs and laughter, both loud and soft, create a gentle kaleidoscope of sound. She sits down, picks up her fork, and sighs before she takes a big bite of a slice of pie…

2009.11.19 01:00 - Just me and me and me....

Tarmel was there...

2009.11.19 07:00 - Tiny Flames and Morning Glories

Pema Pera: is there a topic you'd like to talk about?
Eliza Madrigal: I've come in a bit of a blank slate this morning actually, though I did wake up thinking about grace/letting go...
Eliza Madrigal: and somehow had the idea that when we're letting go of roles, that it is more than that... it is like entire lives

Pema Pera: yes, Eliza, letting go of roles can feel like dying . . . in some sense, sometimes in a very real sense

Pema Pera: we are used to identify so much with our roles that it can literally feel as if our life depended on them . . .

Eliza Madrigal: That the idea of Grace being that there is no more to 'do'... in a sense...

Eliza Madrigal: that Love has accomplished everything
Eliza Madrigal: So then what? What is one 'left with'?

Pema Pera: we associate living with needs, a living creature is a needy creature, needing all kinds of things; when we hear that we don't need anything at all, the first reaction is that it feels like death!

Pema Pera: yes, more and more, the more we find ways to drop hope and fear, including fear of death
Eliza Madrigal considers
Pema Pera: to the extent that we can drop identifying with our needs, we can be free . . . but it's not so easy to find that spot

Pema Pera: a radical way to practice going beyond needs is to consider how each moment everything disappears, everything dies, and to be okay with that; and then to accept the next moment, if it arises, as a whole new world, a new gift from the universe, fresh, something you did not have any right to. Rather than focusing on future needs, all we have to do then is to accept that next moment in gratitude, as a newly created world, for that moment.

2009.11.19 13:00 - Regularity

Storm Nordwind: How do people feel about integrating the 9 second practice in their daily lives? I find it makes me more relaxed to do the practice (at a simple level) but I guess it's possible to get unrelaxed about the regularity of it or about intruding impressions. What does anyone think?
Zon Quar: it makes me calmer
Wol Euler: I found it frustrating and annoying until I stopped trying to do it by the clock

Zon Quar: just watch
Zon Quar: and it relaxes
Zon Quar: by itself

Zon Quar: and i try to remind me not to control the situation

Calvino Rabeni: You can arrange other reminders besides the timer

Storm Nordwind: What have you found works in that way Calvino?

Calvino Rabeni: it is arbitrary, but during transitions between different activities, mostly.

Calvino Rabeni: Those transitions are less well defined in terms of habits, so they are kind of natural junctures between different clusters of habits. (That sounds complicated I guess, but the experience is simple)
Calvino Rabeni: I mean, thos times are when a kind of identity shift happens
Calvino Rabeni: You put on a different face

2009.11.19 19:00 - Lucid Dreaming

Paradise Tennant: had a nice chat with pila last night on lucid dreaming ..ended up with a very long reading list ..fascinating topic :)

Calvino Rabeni: THere seem to be degrees of lucidity
Calvino Rabeni: The most subtle one is just a sense of presence as dreamer.

Paradise Tennant: i wonder if we could bring that kind of lucidity to our "real life dream reality" .. if it would take away the fear :)
Calvino Rabeni: pNot if it is premised on "escape"
stevenaia Michinaga: fear as a lucid dream?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, about certain kinds of fear.

Calvino Rabeni: Lucidity is a bit like being awake in the dream state
Calvino Rabeni: but the other direction is interesting - dreaming while awake.

2009.11.20 01:00 - The mind is massively parallel

Calvino Rabeni: I think I'd like you to understand, I'm not resistent to the awareness-oriented effort of this group - but I focus on that level as well as on a conceptual level. I've done a lot of the awareness stuff in the past so it does not need my complete focus.

Tarmel Udimo: what's the difference between being aware and being conceptual?

Wol Euler: to be aware of something is a stage before having an abstract conception of what it is/does/means
Wol Euler: (perhaps this is just about words ...)
Calvino Rabeni: If you think things are in stages, that is kind of true.
Calvino Rabeni: Suppose people have limited "bandwidth" or conscious capacity.
Calvino Rabeni: Then they have to forget stuff from stage 1 to go to stage 2.
Calvino Rabeni: Then abstraction becomes (and is defined as) loss of information.

Calvino Rabeni: And loss of presence
Wol Euler: I meant "stage" in the sense of thought-process, not a door to pass through
Wol Euler: but I think moving from aware to abstract does involve a loss of presence, as I see those three words

Wol Euler: if I think "this experience I'm having now is like that day in 1971 when Aunt Lucy came by", then I am not really in the moment any more, I am at laest partially in memory

Calvino Rabeni: Sure. I think the notion of "memory" is kind of limiting.
Tarmel Udimo: what is your notion of memory?
Calvino Rabeni: If you deconstruct it, there are aspects that (to me at least) bear scrutiny

Calvino Rabeni: About memory, a folk idea is that it is a recording or representation of something that happened in the past.
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Calvino Rabeni: That is a poor copy.
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow
Calvino Rabeni: So with that view it starts to seem like "being present" would have a better representation of "what really is" than would memory.
Wol Euler: for certain values of "is" :)

Calvino Rabeni: In the sense that, even with access to "current information" in the present, that perceptual "input" is a small part of the mental process, of what it it to be human.

Calvino Rabeni: And we're always being tested, but the particular tests emphasize certain culturally defined values.
Wol Euler: ok, I can see that. You mean that we "see" through filters of memory and ideation

Calvino Rabeni: One interesting perspective is that of "confabulation" as a type of mental process. Have you heard of it?

Calvino Rabeni: In a nutshell, the mind is massively parallel, but we don't observe it.
Wol Euler: absolutely.
Calvino Rabeni: There are different theories, it's not generally settled as a paradigm, but the different approaches are converging.
Calvino Rabeni: It challenges folk philosophy about mind.
Calvino Rabeni: Including, perhaps some views of nonwestern mind theory.

2009.11.20 07:00 - Struggle 3

Gaya Ethaniel: How strange to realise exercising the will is a struggle ... how our world is setup in some ways working against us.

sophia Placebo: and we sometimes work against the world around us ?
Gaya Ethaniel: That too yes ...
Gaya Ethaniel: I guess if asked the relevance ... practices help one to see situations, workings of the world and how we respond etc better.
Eliza Madrigal: When reading the little intention story on the note, it again makes me think of overlaps in traditions and not being distracted by surface level things...

Eliza Madrigal: Sophia, I am wondering if you might elaborate a tiny bit more on 'hawa', and on using desires as tools not aims?

Gaya Ethaniel: But please sophia on hawa ... :)
sophia Placebo: well desires are basically things we need , and we seek them many times subcouncously or with urge hmm easiest is eating , during ramadan it is not unusual to find yourself eating or drinking though you know you are fasting , we desire things we need , no one need to teach us we need food , desire work by itself here towards food , in this sense desire is a tool not an aim ,my aim of eating food isnt food and isnt feeling full but keeping alive and healthy
Gaya Ethaniel nods. In some sense, I find desires easier to see through than hawa.
sophia Placebo: Hawa is not easy to explain with one word , but hawa is about self oriented decision being superior to another not self oriented decision
Eliza Madrigal: so relational? situational?

Gaya Ethaniel: So ... jihad struggle is encouraged to 'say no' to selfish decisions?

sophia Placebo: hmm no big no gaya , jihad is a process of purification , not reactive no , sometimes you meet some muslims who do some non islamic things and they admit it i s not islamic but they are still working on it , why i should not do it why no and how
Gaya Ethaniel: Please say a bit more about purification?
Eliza Madrigal: there is a biblical line that says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"... implies a kind of struggle/wrestling to shed what is in the way of wholeness, in a sense

sophia Placebo: ok this is a verse of Quran where hawa was translated to passion : O ye who believe! Be ye staunch in justice, witnesses for Allah, even though it be against yourselves or (your) parents or (your) kindred, whether (the case be of) a rich man or a poor man, for Allah is nearer unto both (them ye are). So follow not passion lest ye lapse (from truth) and if ye lapse or fall away, then lo! Allah is ever Informed of what ye do.

Eliza Madrigal: I'm synthesizing various sessions this morning ... so interesting.. considering Allah seeing intentions, which makes one aware of them too... if that light is on, it is a kind of purifying...

Gaya Ethaniel: I guess it's difficult to see such intentions clearly if pressed down by sense of self.
Gaya Ethaniel: So I see what you mean by light Eliza :)

2009.11.20 2009 13:00 - Missing

2009.11.20 19:00 - Almost Anything Will Do

Calvino Rabeni: Will the tantrics describe Being as a state of pure play

Eliza Madrigal smiles...and wonders what 'pure' means...

Calvino Rabeni: "Pure" - we can guess about it.
Calvino Rabeni: I think one thing it means is there is no trace of an intention to become a specific form.
Eliza Madrigal: yes maybe it has to do with examining intentions
Eliza Madrigal: Oh...specific form? releasing expectations?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it is prior to intention
Eliza Madrigal: That's an interesting idea... prior to intention... choiceless?
Calvino Rabeni: Like activity, but without a trace of intention towards form.
Calvino Rabeni: For instance, sometimes introspection reveals a subtle flavor of intention and directionality to nearly any thought
Calvino Rabeni: Or to what comes before thought.
Eliza Madrigal: hmm.. yes I can see that...
Calvino Rabeni: Like it is already predetermined, in some subtle way
Eliza Madrigal: determination by the very thought?
Eliza Madrigal: Well it seems how we function
Eliza Madrigal: By the time we think... we're on our way somewhere

doug Sosa: i continually learn from the transition from pre 90 into the 90 (or the 9).
Eliza Madrigal: yes I think that is a really good tension point, doug... those transitions...
Eliza Madrigal: we're constantly moving from one 'place' to another, but not noticing how

doug Sosa: good. and maybe that gets back to the possibility of seeing where intention comes in.

Eliza Madrigal: I guess part of my fear of letting go into the pause was that... that the intention wouldn't be there to report... to move forward, in a sense
Eliza Madrigal: we can be so irrational, good when we get a glimpse of that :)
doug Sosa: catching the intention is very hard. even trying is an advance.

Eliza Madrigal: there are so many things in our environment that can be tools and portals for awareness... things we carry around all the time but don't see
Eliza Madrigal: tired, in someone's voice, for instance
Eliza Madrigal: or a dull ache in a shoulder... a sticky key on a keyboard

Eden Haiku: ys, little things that can open worlds of understanding, recognition, awareness, insights.
Calvino Rabeni: Eliza, that is nice - almost anything will do.
Eliza Madrigal smiles... we're overrun with riches

2009.11.21 01:00 - Knowledge

Scathach Rhiadra: so, has anybody a topic they would like to discuss?
Calvino Rabeni: Well, perhaps. Is this about spiritual?
Calvino Rabeni: THis group and endeavor.
Calvino Rabeni: And how do you hold it?
Archmage Atlantis: I suppose, retaining practice when RL is difficult, and that is indeed spiritual

Calvino Rabeni: Is it scientific (also)?
Calvino Rabeni: Do you have a goal or quest?

Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, I suppose that depends on the person, some approach the practice scientifically, some in a more spiritual manner?
Calvino Rabeni: Scath, are certain objectives implied in those two approaches?

Qt Core: don't know, calvino, never really tried to define myself (to be honest even if i can grasp the meaning of the term i can't understand it in this context)
Calvino Rabeni: those words dont define us as much as point to a quality or mode of knowing
Qt Core: an interesting question, ignorance or knowledge is the biggest source of concerns/trouble/pain

Scathach Rhiadra: I think there must be some goal, even very subtle, otherwise how would anyone start on this path, whether scientific or spiritual?
Calvino Rabeni: Like, are you inside the knowledge, or are you looking at it from the outside as a structure.

Calvino Rabeni: so would the traveler be changed by the journey?

Calvino Rabeni: But then it is an act of faith that the "total path" exists.
Archmage Atlantis: Agree, it is an act of faith/belief.......and not the only one possible

Calvino Rabeni: When you do the method, do you forego the "ultimate" in order to apprehend the "ordinary"?

Scathach Rhiadra: is that not assuming a difference between ultimate and ordinary, Calvino?
Calvino Rabeni: Many people assume that. And if they do, it would affect their practice.
Scathach Rhiadra: knowledge of the true nature of the ordinary may be knowledge of the ultimate?
Calvino Rabeni: That makes sense to me.
Calvino Rabeni: But every day we make zillions of choices about what to attend to.
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Calvino Rabeni: And it doesn't hae a neutral effect, so it kind of matters
Calvino Rabeni: I mean, the attending structures the objects that are seen.
Archmage Atlantis: So for me, this practice says "take a brief moment to see outside the normal choices one makes"

2009.11.21 07:00 - Anger

Fael Illyar: one of the things he said during the teaching that I felt noteworthy is "anger comes from thinking the fault lie entirely within someone else"

Eliza Madrigal: Anger seems to come from a feeling of powerless to affect something or someone... to make something happen or unhappen...

sophia Placebo: anger comes sometimes when you face a new problem you have no experiance with and you feel you are under pressure of the situation to solve it in short time now better than later

Pema Pera: I think the ultimate cause is that we identify with being a small and needy creature
Pema Pera: and when our needs (physically, emotionally) are crossed we panic

Pema Pera: and anger is the result

Eos Amaterasu: having no needs avoids the issue -w e all have needs

Eos Amaterasu: even elementary, such as food

Pema Pera: (and Eos, just to respond, we can leave it for later: yes, we all have needs, as relative truth, but also we have no needs, as absolute truth; both are true, we have to choose in what context we speak)

Eos Amaterasu: anger flash can happen when communication is blocked
Eos Amaterasu: just the flash alone can be "enlightening"
Eos Amaterasu: what follows usually is not

Eos Amaterasu: Anger can also come from feeling you have no voice, cannot communicate - and so can be a speech act
Eos Amaterasu: Some political anger feels like that - people feel they are not allowed to "use your words"

Paradise Tennant: sometimes I think we underestimate the nature of energy and the nuturing it requires .. tax ourselve with too much activiity ..too little sleep and the like

Fael Illyar: one thing that causes lot of anger is wanting things and seeing those not happen. When tired, it happens more.

Pema Pera: if I may come back briefly to my "no needs" notion, I don't think Eos and I disagreed there -- PaB can be seen as a 9 seconds time out from the relative world of needs, into the absolute words of no needs: two sides of the coin of what appears, what is

Yakuzza Lethecus: i think alot about the ,,no needs" vs what motivates myself issue, what makes me angry and what is supposed to make myself angry or unhappy is obviously related to that

Widget Whiteberry: in recent times, my thought is more often to position myself to find out more and to look from a different perspective

2009.11.21 13:00 - Things in Boxes

Mickorod Renard: I moved recently but only temporarily

Mickorod Renard: I am still in boxes,,seems a shame to unpack for a limited period

Eliza Madrigal nods... and yet living with packed boxes can feel strange...
Eliza Madrigal: especially if for a long time

Mickorod Renard: I find it unsettling in the mind to be in this state

Mickorod Renard: but this is a funny battle in the head,,this always wishing for a future outcome
Mickorod Renard: it goes against what we want to learn here
Mickorod Renard: about how now is important
Eliza Madrigal: Well, maybe the feeling of wanting can be opened up :)

2009.11.21 19:00 - What is the Something Else?

Pema Pera: the big challenge of any more radical form of practice is to keep in mind that nothing needs to be done, while still caring very much about anything you do
Pema Pera: it would be wrong, of course, to deny our needs
Pema Pera: for sleep, food, emotional shelter, etc
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Pema Pera: but it also would be wrong to totally identify with those needs
Pema Pera: so how to juggle both? do you have a suggestion?
Eliza Madrigal: Well I think I can only point to instances where that 'both' seems natural
Eliza Madrigal: But I do see how much pressure it takes off of one to think in that way...
Pema Pera: do you have an example from your own experience?
Eliza Madrigal: So no worry about not having needs and being spiritual, and no worry about not being spiritual and caught in needs
Pema Pera: yes, that's the ideal balance!