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22-24 - Eos Appreciates

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    2009.07.22 01:00 - Me & the Birds

    http://playasbeing.wik.is/index.php?title=Chat_Logs/2009/07/2009.07.22_-_01:00_-_Me_%26_the_Birds 


    No one came, no one left, no one wept and no one laughed. All in all a very quiet night, apart from the rain falling outside my balcony door!  - Tarmel



    2009.07.22 07:00 - Languages & Cultures of Kindness

    http://playasbeing.wik.is/index.php?title=Chat_Logs/2009/07/2009.07.22_-_Languages_%26_Cultures_of_Kindness 

    Eliza Madrigal: Usually I wake up thinking about something... a theme for the day. Today it is kindness :) 

    Eliza Madrigal: The reason I thought about kindness this morning, is that in the Harry Potter film (cant remember if the line was in the book), 
    sophia Placebo: i was really angry , then i played with a kid and angry feelings fade away 
    Eliza Madrigal: That will do it :) 
    Eliza Madrigal: At one point in the film Dumbledore tells Harry that he is unfailingly kind, and remarks that it is a quality not appreciated by most... 
    Eliza Madrigal: And this morning I read an article to the same effect.

    The article itself is interesting in a few places, but mostly common sense.   http://www.thesmartset.com/article/article07080901.aspx 

               

    Eliza Madrigal: The article mentioned that people, especially on the internet, can get used to an echo chamber of sorts, and fail to hear or tolerate other ideas 
    sophia Placebo: one saying here is - who would need to opress except the weak 
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, like that! 
    Eliza Madrigal: So bullying is born of insecurity and a feeling of weakness 
    sophia Placebo: i liked the echo chamber image 
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, because we think of the internet as being this 'open' slate.... 
    Eliza Madrigal: but people make it what they want, in a sense 
    Eliza Madrigal: we all do 
    sophia Placebo: true 
    Eliza Madrigal: So it seems there needs to be an intention toward openness, which does seem to require something like kindness to operate 
    Eliza Madrigal: Otherwise we end up with a more rude society, which would be ironic considering the vast potential of the internet 

               

    Sophia Placebo: newtin said that for each act there is a counter act , equal in maltitude oppiste in direction right ? 
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, eys cause and effect 
    Eliza Madrigal: *yes 
    sophia Placebo: kindess is the same , it is an act and its effect is a counter act to you or to thers 
    Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes. So you believe it has effects even if they are not immediately seen? 
    sophia Placebo: sure 
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I do too 
    Eliza Madrigal: At least that is the way I try to live... 
    sophia Placebo: but i wouldnt wait or look for that effect 
    Eliza Madrigal smiles 
    sophia Placebo: i wouldnt even expect a pay back kind of thing 

              

    Eliza Madrigal: Sophia made an interesting point : i think kindness if applied as a mean for social openness it would become like a manner or tradition , but if kindness perceived as philosophy or as concept accepted and appreciated individually then yes it would make a diffrence 
    sophia Placebo: and eliza asked :[7:32] Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes. Anytime we try to capture something and set it up as a 'standard' it can lose some value? 

              

    Pema Pera: yes, I can see that -- it is much better if everyone (or even some people) would try to be personally engaged rather than following rules 
    Eliza Madrigal nods 
    Pema Pera: but even so, rules can have a very positive influence 
    Pema Pera: I'm always reminded of that, when I visit Japan 
    Eliza Madrigal: yes? 
    Eliza Madrigal: As in manners and a general expectation? 
    Pema Pera: In a Starbucks in Japan, the people behind the cash register look you in the eye, they smile, they pay attention, they really are there and willing to communicate 
    Eliza Madrigal: That makes a difference, I'd imagine, in the whole day 
    Pema Pera: and when I go back to New York, half the time those people in the same role are looking at their co-workers and continuing their conversation while ignoring their client even though they are counting out the money for them 
    Pema Pera: always a shock that lasts a few days before I get used to it again . . . . 
       
    sophia Placebo: the spirit of that joy is still living in Japanese culture ? 
    Pema Pera: problems that go very deep . . . . 
    Pema Pera: oh yes, Sophia, very much so 
    sophia Placebo: wonderfull! 
    Pema Pera: appreciation for details, in everything, from electronic manifacturing to wrapping a present 
    Pema Pera: and receiving a little present: they actually use chakras, probably without being aware of it 
    Pema Pera: when receiving a present you bow slightly and bring the present to your forehead, and then you straighten and hold the present in from of your heart 
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh! Nice!! 
    Pema Pera: clearly connected with chi/prana energy centers 
    Pema Pera: you can feel it 
    sophia Placebo: so higly appreciation gesture 
    Pema Pera: but it's part of their gestures, like shaking hands, I'm sure they don't think about it, but I'm equally sure they do feel it  
     Eliza Madrigal: The little things. Our life is full of them and yet we rush by 

    sophia Placebo: ok :)) 
    Pema Pera: unless forced to, or willing to adapt to foreigners; normally they bow 
    Pema Pera: the connections are energetic, through gestures, not physical

    Shared a little moment here which sticks out to my memory as strongly as a significant holiday might! :)


    Eliza Madrigal: I was paying my son's fees one day at his school, and the lady behind the counter and I bowed kind of instinctively. It was such a sweet moment... out of nowhere. I hardly knew her :)

    Pema Pera: ... in Japan "watch out" or "take care" literally is said as "use your chi" -- chi is not an exotic word, it's as ordinary as water or stone :) 
    Pema Pera: so they're quite good at pinning it down, traditionally, to a large extent :-) 
    Pema Pera: to begin to feel an affection for someone is in Japanese to let someone into your chi -- many expressions like that 
    Pema Pera: ("chi" is the Chinese word; in Japanese it is "ki") 

           

    Pema Pera: oh, I'm not implying that Japanese as a whole are more kind; rather that their language offers them a tool to talk/think/work with energy 
    Pema Pera: and that their training forces them to pay a lot more attention to each other than in most other countries, which is a condition for the possibility of appreciation -- not a cause, but it sure helps 

           

    2009.07.22 13:00 - You Say Yes, I Say No

    http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/07/2009.07.22_13%3a00_-_You_Say_Yes%2c_I_Say_No 

    Questa Blackheart: How about "change" as a topic?
    Fefonz Quan: please take it on Queasta
    Questa Blackheart: I have just been told I will likely be made redundant.
    Questa Blackheart: The thing I find quite amusing is that most people look sympathetic and ask me if I'm OK.
    Fox Monacular: from my experience with immigrants I find that women seem to tolerate change better than men...?
    Fefonz Quan: somehow women tend to be more emotionally flexible than Men. maybe they are not expected to be 'tough' all teh time

    Fox Monacular: perhaps it has something to do with the fact that women go through intense physical changes... when have babies for example

    Mickorod Renard: men build their castles of security,,if u know what i mean,,and dont like having to recalculate the risks all over again
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fefonz Quan: yes, moving a castle is harder than a tent :)

    Fox Monacular: it's also cultural.. for men sometimes it's seen as weakness to express emotions
    Fefonz Quan: right.
    Fefonz Quan: but then, when the wind blows hard, the tough trees break while the flexible ones bend till it is over
    Mickorod Renard: expresing emotions of anger are expected of men,,and when they do, they are critisized for it
    Fox Monacular: yes, so resistance is futile really
    Eliza Madrigal: So women are Palm trees?

    Eliza Madrigal: we were talking a little this morning about how language affects culture, etc. also. So a word like 'kindness' is thought to be weak' or a female quality when it takes much strength inwardly/security to be kind.

    Mickorod Renard: I came to realise that the regular person I had debate with was happy to become aggressive with me,,now I record the situation and for some reason they dont want to carry on with the debate..weird


    2009.07.22 19:00 - Architects and Scientists and labels

    http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/07/2009.07.22_19%3a00_-_Architects_and_Scientists 

    stevenaia Michinaga: I was just finishing leftovers from dinner with Adams, Wol, and Fefonz last night
    Pema Pera: It was such a pleasure to meet Wol in Germany, last month
    stevenaia Michinaga: the most interesting thing I have found is accents don't make themselves evident in Sl w/o voice
    stevenaia Michinaga: it adds so much to hear someone
    stevenaia Michinaga: aside from leaving your avatar in sl
    Pema Pera: yes, it is like final meeting the poet, after having read some of her poetry
    stevenaia Michinaga: or hearing them read their own work
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: each PaB session is in some sense a joint piece of poetry
    stevenaia Michinaga: it was strike the similarities amongst us, all work in some kind of visual field and each has an appreciation for complex databases


    2009.07.23 01:00

    <not yet available>


    2009.07.23 07:00 - The "If" Koan

    http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/07/2009.07.23_07%3a00_-_The_%22If%22_Koan 

    genesis Zhangsun: so my tendency is to get a bit obsessive
    genesis Zhangsun: I take an idea and my mind chews on it
    genesis Zhangsun: far too long
    genesis Zhangsun: perhaps even until it has turned to dust :)
    genesis Zhangsun: so meditation allows me to let go of that usual thinking pattern
    genesis Zhangsun: I drop it
    genesis Zhangsun: but it also continues to work in the background
    genesis Zhangsun: but in a slower way
    genesis Zhangsun: more space for thoughts
    genesis Zhangsun: less pressured
    genesis Zhangsun: so while I don't focus on "insight:
    genesis Zhangsun: in my meditation
    genesis Zhangsun: and more "calm"
    genesis Zhangsun: I notice that towards the end
    genesis Zhangsun: sometimes in a very shocking way
    genesis Zhangsun: a little piece of processed information comes to the surface
    genesis Zhangsun: in a very neat, beautiful kind of symbolic way
    genesis Zhangsun: much more understandable than the garble in my head when I believe I am working on something by thinking about it logically/rationally
    genesis Zhangsun: the symbol is very complete
    genesis Zhangsun: capturing all of kinds of things I could never put into words
    genesis Zhangsun: except maybe in poetry
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: these symbols feel very intimate
    genesis Zhangsun: only I could hold them up to myself
    genesis Zhangsun: a therapist could never do it for me
    genesis Zhangsun: the self exploration also has something so relaxed about it
    genesis Zhangsun: I feel trust
    genesis Zhangsun: for the process, for myself, in Being
    Pema Pera: that's a beautiful summary!

    genesis Zhangsun: I suppose the idea is to bring the sitting mentality with you in the movement

    Pema Pera: so how do you "stick with it" without getting too tense?
    Pema Pera: playing without "practicing" and without getting sloppy?
    genesis Zhangsun: I try to think of it like brushing my teeth
    genesis Zhangsun: it is something I do for maintenance
    genesis Zhangsun: I don't try to "add" any extra dimension
    genesis Zhangsun: of ambition
    genesis Zhangsun: or hard discipline

    Pema Pera: can you say more about the notion of "maintenance"? You mean this as opposed to reaching/adding/perfecting, right?
    genesis Zhangsun: I once described it as starting with something as coarse and overblown like a bat to hit a marble
    genesis Zhangsun: eventually you are playing ping pong
    genesis Zhangsun: and then just a flick of your finger
    genesis Zhangsun: than no finger at all

    Pema Pera: what you have just outlined, this whole path from bat to ping pong to flicking to nothing -- all that still has a flavor of a path, a process, a program, a kind of agenda
    Pema Pera: do you think it would be possible to drop EVEN THAT ?

        

    The "if" koan something Pema and I have been discussing.  "If" you see then it is enough...what about dropping the "if" the condition, what happens? 

    Pema Pera: that's the "if" we have been talking about
    genesis Zhangsun: yes it is
    genesis Zhangsun: the elusive if
    Pema Pera: any path glorifies an "if" -- if you don't take this path it won't work
    Pema Pera: you'll be doomed
    Pema Pera: not enlightened
    Pema Pera: but if you don't take any path, then what -- most likely you're even more stuck
    Pema Pera: so what gives?
    genesis Zhangsun: hmm yes tricky koan
    genesis Zhangsun: still pondering it
    Pema Pera: Stim and I have given it a code name : "Namkhai Norbu's if"

    Pema Pera: If Namkhai Norbu would walk into this room (we were sitting in my office in Princeton)
    Pema Pera: and would join the conversation, the he would likely say something in response to the Time, Space, Knowledge vision
    Pema Pera: "sure, IF you can see what TSK points to, THEN that would be equivalent to chan/zen or dzogchen"
    Pema Pera: meaning that the essence is similar, and that it is all a question of whether or to what extent you get it
    Pema Pera: Now Stim added, cautiously as you know his way:
    Pema Pera: maybe TSK is different. Maybe there is no "if"
    Pema Pera: . . . . . . . . . . . .
    genesis Zhangsun: play as being seems to build off of that precisely

    If we are at the end why practice?
    genesis Zhangsun: why do we practice, why explore using these methods?
    Pema Pera: no reason
    genesis Zhangsun: so if they are not to see better
    genesis Zhangsun: they are to celebrate the seeing?
    Pema Pera: that's the koan


    2009.07.23 13:00 - Remain in Light

    http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/07/2009.07.23_13%3a00_-_Remain_in_Light 

     

    Pila captures the IF Koan by the tail, knowingly or not, and rides the tiger home


      

        Shyama Sheryffe: may i ask what is ur approach Pila
        Pila Mulligan: my approach to huna?
        Shyama Sheryffe: to life..lol
        Pila Mulligan: :)
        Pila Mulligan: ah, i am happy :)
        Shyama Sheryffe: lol
        Pila Mulligan: seems the easiest thing to do

       Pila Mulligan: i ching is attributed to Fu Xi, maybe 5000 years ago
        Pila Mulligan: it is an excellent teaching tool
        Pila Mulligan: I do not use it as an oracle, that is a lesser role if you ask me
        Shyama Sheryffe: i have tried it sometimes and it was so fitting
        Pila Mulligan: yes, it has that element of being timely
        Shyama Sheryffe: how do u use it then ?
        Pila Mulligan: I begin my day (usually at 4:00 am) with a silent meditation, then an i ching meditation, then tai chi -- takes about an hour
        Pila Mulligan: so I use it as a daily meditation
        Pila Mulligan: and it keeps its timeliness each day, it seems :)

       Shyama Sheryffe: wu wei ?
        Pila Mulligan: wu wei is a popular expression often interpreted as non-action
        Pila Mulligan: it is a little deeper than that however
        Pila Mulligan: it is closer to being in harmony with nature
        Pila Mulligan: not acting, as an alternative to acting
        Pila Mulligan: sometimes it is appropriate not to act, and that is more often than we may think
        Shyama Sheryffe: hm..witnessing
        Pila Mulligan: more going with the flow, letting events happen
        Shyama Sheryffe: nods
        Pila Mulligan: but this involves a much lesser known idea called the dao of i, or the way of change
        Pila Mulligan: the flow of events is described by the dao of i

       Eos Amaterasu: Since we come out of nature, perhaps one approach is to rest in nature's lap
        Pila Mulligan: nature is full of reality, and as Eos just said, it is not just a simple place
        Eos Amaterasu: which is kind of resting in the question
        Pila Mulligan: yes, that is kind of the idea of wu wei, lap resting

       Eos Amaterasu: I think the 9 secs practice is a bit of letting go, not immediately grasping on, answers or intentions or anything
        Pila Mulligan: a lap pause :)
        Eos Amaterasu wonders how far this metaphor (?) will be taken
        Pila Mulligan: several laps at least
        Eos Amaterasu: argh!
        Pila Mulligan: :)
        Eos Amaterasu: actually that is a lovely image used in the Dzogchen and Mahamudra traditions:
        Eos Amaterasu: that realization is like the child luminosity returning to the mother luminosity
        Eos Amaterasu: like a child jumping back into its mother's lap

        Eos Amaterasu: how do you find wu wei in your life, PIla?
        Pila Mulligan: this was what we talked about earlier
        Pila Mulligan: wu wei is deeper for me than just non-action
        Eos Amaterasu: non-action is probably as full of surprises as resting in we wei's lap
        Pila Mulligan: yes, it is a dynamic idea -- it requires consciousness as a consistent activity :)

        Eos Amaterasu: Finding non-action in action is the thing
        Pila Mulligan: yes, the harmonious moment
        Eos Amaterasu: it probably helps to be coming from non-action to the extent there is contrast
        Pila Mulligan: well, there is a lot of contrast, for most people, in our cultures
        Eos Amaterasu: so that as things arise they do so from empty/fullness
        Eos Amaterasu: you think you're falling into the gaps
        Eos Amaterasu: but sometimes you find things rising out of the gaps

        Eos Amaterasu: sudden turns are also in there (witness Gretzky, Zidane, Bird....)
        Pila Mulligan: [Michael Jordan] could tell when the nature of the game shifted and he surfed it with strong chi
        Pila Mulligan: there is a chinese term 'dragging your wheels'
        Pila Mulligan: that is to avoid letting the ground get out form under you :)
        Eos Amaterasu: nice image!
        Pila Mulligan: yes, a good leader needs timing
        Pila Mulligan: so MJ would drag his wheels when the flow was contrary, then let them loose when the time came

        Eos Amaterasu: so you churn into your actual experience, rather than trying to avoid it
        Eos Amaterasu: and if you churn with empty hands/wheels
        Eos Amaterasu: you get into the whole field
        Pila Mulligan: yes, that is where wu wei likes to stay, in the whole field

        Pila Mulligan: and a great deal of it is done with breathing :)
        Eos Amaterasu: What would you suggest re breathing in terms of the 9 secs, if anything?
        Pila Mulligan: a deep breath takes me about 20 seconds
        Pila Mulligan: so do a full breath, however long it takes
        Eos Amaterasu: You also kind of perceive with your breath (especially the "per" part)
        Pila Mulligan: yes
        Pila Mulligan: that is the light of the breath
        Pila Mulligan: it is the connection to the interrelatedness, the light


    2009.07.24 13:00

    <not yet available>




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