19 -21- Dreams, Ego and Myth

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    Dreams, ego, myth, who we are --- what do these have in common? We are challenged to face the boundaries of normal human experience, and use various methods to share this information to others.

    “Your vision will become clear only when you look into your heart. Who looks outside, dreams. Who looks inside, awakens.” - Carl Gustav Jung


    2009.07.19 01:00 - Impressions of ego

    Moon Fargis: so it goes so far as you let it be affect from your experience

    Moon Fargis: no one else can tell you your right path
    Moon Fargis: and ego makes things appear
    Moon Fargis: but in different ways
    Moon Fargis: like sunglasses in front of your eyes
    sophia Placebo: how to remove those glasses

    Moon Fargis: that’s not 100% possible
    Moon Fargis: but there are ways to brighten up the sunglasses

    Moon Fargis: well just another word for the same as there is the practice to drop your thoughts like a stone that you drop to the ground from your hands


    2009.07.19 07:00 - Mary and Martha and Dream/Sleep Research

    Adams Rubble: I had a dream that I saw some movie that pulled together my SL and RLs

    Adams Rubble: but Pila and Pema were talking about living life on the superficial level

    Fael Illyar: SL is a part of RL ... if you ask me :)
    Adams Rubble: yes, I can't argue that one :)
    Adams Rubble: but still, I have different concerns in the two places
    Adams Rubble: my superficial lives are different. hehe
    Adams Rubble: but the spiritual life is the same

    Adams Rubble: I was thinking of Mary and Martha before I came this morning
    Adams Rubble: hard to say what Martha was doing was superficial
    Adams Rubble: but when the master is talking we need to listen

     Eliza Madrigal: Jesus said that Mary had chosen the more vital thing

    Adams Rubble: maybe superficiality is a bit relative
    Eliza Madrigal: Maybe, or perhaps the food might not have taken as long as Martha took with it...

     Adams Rubble: But an interesting parable when we consider living on a superficial level

    Eliza Madrigal: In buddhism also this is true... gratitude for the honor of hearing dharma
    Eliza Madrigal: feeling of privilege

    Eliza Madrigal: The thing is, Mary/Martha is such a good example for some, of the wrestling we go through day to day... giving place to spiritual lives amidst so many practical considerations
    Adams Rubble: about living life on a superficial level

    Fael Illyar: Martha put all her effort into fulfilling just one of the needs the guests possibly had.
    Adams Rubble: yes fael
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, it was her way of showing gratitude also
    Eliza Madrigal: her work

    Eliza Madrigal: I think it is about priorities and nothing more.... not saying that cooking and serving practically, is not vital...
    Eliza Madrigal: but making time for pauses/meditation the non-negotiable

    Fox Monacular: I think it's also about what you show to your teacher... you just sit and receive the teachings or you try to please and impress his senses
    Fox Monacular: so senses are superficial and easy

    Fox Monacular: but genuine attention and gratitude for something intangible requires much more work
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting, yes..even though the working 'looks' harder
    Fox Monacular: than just preparing food
    Adams Rubble: lots of levels to this :)
    Adams Rubble: It goes beyond superficiality

    Fox Monacular: yes, it is also about physical senses vs soul senses
    Fox Monacular: like buddha in a way

    Fox Monacular: yes, food for body vs food for soul...
    Eliza Madrigal nods... not much energy for study if one doesn't eat, too
    stevenaia Michinaga: service to others
    Fox Monacular: one creates a temporary satiety, the other accumulates and is never lost

    2009.07.19 13:00 - flowermaker

    Moon Fargis: do you want more flowers ?:)
    Lia Rikugun: hehe looks so nice
    Moon Fargis: ill take this as a yes *giggles*
    Lia Rikugun: WOW
    Lia Rikugun: the flowermaker!!!

    Moon Fargis: play as jungle

    Eos Amaterasu: slowly rezzing, hi
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello Eos :)
    Pila Mulligan: we'll send a scout out to guide you into the jungle
    Moon Fargis: yes lot to rezz today:)
    Pila Mulligan: Organic Sunday :)
    Lia Rikugun: so nice, in the middle of nature
    Eos Amaterasu: yeah, where's the jewel in the lotus?
    Pila Mulligan: there may be several of them in the pond
    Moon Fargis: ah those are waterlillies:)
    Pila Mulligan: have a seat, if you can fid on, Eos :)
    Eos Amaterasu: like being inside those Monet pigments

    Moon Fargis: soo is there a topic for today ?:)
    Pila Mulligan: or Padma as in asana
    Eos Amaterasu: effulgence of being
    Pila Mulligan: a term that may refer to the lotus, Moon

    Pila Mulligan: effulgence of being, Eos?
    Eos Amaterasu: indeed
    Pila Mulligan: can you elaborate, please?
    Eos Amaterasu: being as the cornucopia of the possibilities of itself

    Eos Amaterasu: rich juicy colorful feeling of summer being


    2009.07.19 19:00 - Myth

    Vajra Radikal: on the subject of myths the commonality probably arises from the fact that those symbols address
    Vajra Radikal: some very common needs in human nature

    Vajra Radikal: however i do find that myths are dealt with in different fashion in the orient than in the west
    Vajra Radikal: the east is happy looking at myths as metaphors and the west looks at them
    Vajra Radikal: in a more radical and literal way

    Pema Pera: I think that the very notion of "existence" takes on a quite different sense when you go deep into the kind of experiences that are relevant here . . . . and in Christian mysticism and Sufism, for example, the great mystics and Sufis have quite a different outlook on existence than what you normally read and hear about Christianity and Buddhism; much closer in fact.
    Pema Pera: I meant to say "Christianity and Islam", sorry

    Pema Pera: When they talk about God and the world, much of what they say is close to the way Buddhist talk about the world

    stevenaia Michinaga: and what can be found within the myth

    stevenaia Michinaga: a story, a lesson, a meaning
    jeena Cyberstar: so why myth?

    Eos Amaterasu: because it's the only way to tell the truth?
    stevenaia Michinaga: history comes in many forms, this may be one type of oral history with a cultural lesson
    Eos Amaterasu: it our own story

    Eos Amaterasu: to hit the point you have to myth the point
    Vajra Radikal: the prob with myth is that we immediately assume it as a fib or a lie

    Vajra Radikal: it's just a metaphor

    Eos Amaterasu: science looks to and from the myth
    stevenaia Michinaga: yet science used metaphor to explain itself often

    Vajra Radikal: however metaphor is great at attempting to describe the transcendent
    Eos Amaterasu: or the mundane


    2009.07.20 13:00 - Where is Aware?

    Pila Mulligan: science seems to almost tease us with ideas that sound just like ideas from old contemplaitve traditions -- e.g., entanglement, mirror neurons -- it may be that they are related or it may just be wishful thinking, I don't know
    Pila Mulligan: but it is interesting

    Eliza Madrigal: Interconnectedness as an idea seems to be a very accessible idea, in discussing the way we live our daily lives with other people.. a paradigm that sees individuals as fundamentally separate from each other/environment brings diff. actions than one that sees others as, in essence, oneself?

    Fox Monacular: I think science taking from contemplative traditions can also signify a shift in underlying ontologies

    Fox Monacular: I guess I'm thinking that science as a discipline has been seen as fairly separate from anything else, especially anything pertaining to religion or philosophy
    Fox Monacular: and now there is more movement towards interdisciplinarity
    Eliza Madrigal nods. Perhaps discoveries turn assumptions on their heads which brings about a new kind of humility and listening.

    Pila Mulligan: science seems to rely on a similar empirical/intuitive approach as an initial element, prior to proofs, while contemplative traditions did not seem to require proofs beyond personal experience
    Fox Monacular: personal experience can be a proof too
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Fox Monacular: in a phenomenological way
    Pila Mulligan: sufficient for the person at least

    Fox Monacular: yes, there has been a true explosion of brain scans of meditators
    Fefonz Quan: not sure about explosion, but there sure has been some.
    Eliza Madrigal: they've linked actual physiological changes to meditation, but can't say 'why' exactly
    Pila Mulligan: thinking of the Menninger Institute and Swami Rama, 40 years ago
    Fox Monacular: explosion for real :) every week in my pubmed notifications :)
    Fefonz Quan: though their point was to show the neurological influence of meditation, which is totally within the scientific region

    Fox Monacular: no, they can't say why because nobody has proposed a good model which would truly bring these things together in a meaningful way
    Fox Monacular: although there is the enactive approach
    Fox Monacular: from Varela and Thompson and Noe
    Fefonz Quan: what does it say?
    Fox Monacular: that our minds are not in our brains but rather consciousness can be seen as an interplay between brain, body and environment

    Pila Mulligan: to me it is interesting that contemplative traditions paid somewhat more attention to the spine than the cranium -- e.g., chakras, kundalini, acupuncture
    Pila Mulligan: so the body's whole sense spectrum was at play
    Pila Mulligan: not just brain stuff


    2009.07.21 19:00 - Avatars, gaps, buildings

    Eos Amaterasu: SL is to some extent a visualization practice, it seems
    Eos Amaterasu: Making it more apparent the extent to which RL is visualized as well
    Eos Amaterasu: & the nine secs can also be suspension within the ongoing visualization
    Threedee Shepherd: You mean it is visually based? The main communication is really this type chat
    Eos Amaterasu: I mean visualization in a more general sense: perhaps as "projection"
    Eos Amaterasu: with "grooming behavior" that helps create our appearance
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, that sounds appropriate
    Eos Amaterasu: Vajrayana buddhism uses visualization as a way to catch up with ourselves always visualizing anyway
    Eos Amaterasu: SL seems similar in that regard
    Eos Amaterasu: we play with idealized or whimsical versions of ourselves
    Eos Amaterasu: (interesting word :-) [idealized]
    Threedee Shepherd: I do not know very much about Vajrayana
    Eos Amaterasu: it more or less uses the phenomenal world and appearances as the path
    Eos Amaterasu: rather than pushing it away

    Eos Amaterasu: There seems to be a bit of a play between being "aware of something", and gaps in that, where there still might be sense of aware, awake
    Eos Amaterasu: touch and go
    Threedee Shepherd: We only take as much into awareness as is needed to make the moment of living sensible. Much is just happening that forms the context.

    Eos Amaterasu: awareness, appreciation, of presence of appearance is a kind of moment smeared out over appearance
    Threedee Shepherd: all is appearance and appearance is all, at the conscious level

    Threedee Shepherd: hmmm, now I back up a bit and ask if thoughts, ideas, concepts and even dreams, are "things"
    Eos Amaterasu: perhaps there is no experience of things without thought (thought including sensation)
    Eos Amaterasu: and thought includes experience of emotion, wish, intention, which are less "thingy" but still very real
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, but is there experience of thought without "things"
    Eos Amaterasu: Ah, yes, good question

    Eos Amaterasu: kind of subtle, too, since "experience" implies "experience of...", and so "experience of thingyness"
    Threedee Shepherd: All thought involves the body and its history of "thingy" experiences, even if that is virtual and not present in the moment, I believe.

    Eos Amaterasu: One classic buddhist et al recipe for realizing awareness itself is to attend to after the last thought, and before the next one
    Eos Amaterasu: eg, transitions, gaps
    Threedee Shepherd: I do not understand. If the gap is truly "empty" there is no-thing to attend to, only the emptyness.
    Eos Amaterasu: It's not so much that you can "catch" or "see" that gap , because then you thingify it
    Eos Amaterasu: but you kind of allow it
    Eos Amaterasu: something like that you and experience are already coming from that
    Threedee Shepherd: Why do you even assert there is a gap, as opposed to a continuum with subtle transitions
    Eos Amaterasu: Well, transitions says it: there is discontinuity (in the realm of things and thingification)
    Threedee Shepherd: There is a physical discontinuity between a rock and the tree it is next to. However, perhaps there is no discontinuity to thought/experience, other than one I invent for the purpose of sanity


    (typos fixed, for the most part)

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