22-24 - Eos Appreciates

2009.07.22 01:00 - Me & the Birds

http://playasbeing.wik.is/index.php?title=Chat_Logs/2009/07/2009.07.22_-_01:00_-_Me_%26_the_Birds 

No one came, no one left, no one wept and no one laughed. All in all a very quiet night, apart from the rain falling outside my balcony door!  - Tarmel

2009.07.22 07:00 - Languages & Cultures of Kindness

http://playasbeing.wik.is/index.php?title=Chat_Logs/2009/07/2009.07.22_-_Languages_%26_Cultures_of_Kindness 

Eliza Madrigal: Usually I wake up thinking about something... a theme for the day. Today it is kindness :) 

Eliza Madrigal: The reason I thought about kindness this morning, is that in the Harry Potter film (cant remember if the line was in the book), 
sophia Placebo: i was really angry , then i played with a kid and angry feelings fade away 
Eliza Madrigal: That will do it :) 
Eliza Madrigal: At one point in the film Dumbledore tells Harry that he is unfailingly kind, and remarks that it is a quality not appreciated by most... 
Eliza Madrigal: And this morning I read an article to the same effect.

The article itself is interesting in a few places, but mostly common sense.   http://www.thesmartset.com/article/article07080901.aspx 

Eliza Madrigal: The article mentioned that people, especially on the internet, can get used to an echo chamber of sorts, and fail to hear or tolerate other ideas 
sophia Placebo: one saying here is - who would need to opress except the weak 
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, like that! 
Eliza Madrigal: So bullying is born of insecurity and a feeling of weakness 
sophia Placebo: i liked the echo chamber image 
Eliza Madrigal: yes, because we think of the internet as being this 'open' slate.... 
Eliza Madrigal: but people make it what they want, in a sense 
Eliza Madrigal: we all do 
sophia Placebo: true 
Eliza Madrigal: So it seems there needs to be an intention toward openness, which does seem to require something like kindness to operate 
Eliza Madrigal: Otherwise we end up with a more rude society, which would be ironic considering the vast potential of the internet             

Sophia Placebo: newtin said that for each act there is a counter act , equal in maltitude oppiste in direction right ? 
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, eys cause and effect 
Eliza Madrigal: *yes 
sophia Placebo: kindess is the same , it is an act and its effect is a counter act to you or to thers 
Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes. So you believe it has effects even if they are not immediately seen? 
sophia Placebo: sure 
Eliza Madrigal: yes, I do too 
Eliza Madrigal: At least that is the way I try to live... 
sophia Placebo: but i wouldnt wait or look for that effect 
Eliza Madrigal smiles 
sophia Placebo: i wouldnt even expect a pay back kind of thing 

     

Eliza Madrigal: Sophia made an interesting point : i think kindness if applied as a mean for social openness it would become like a manner or tradition , but if kindness perceived as philosophy or as concept accepted and appreciated individually then yes it would make a diffrence 
sophia Placebo: and eliza asked :[7:32] Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes. Anytime we try to capture something and set it up as a 'standard' it can lose some value? 

Pema Pera: yes, I can see that -- it is much better if everyone (or even some people) would try to be personally engaged rather than following rules 
Eliza Madrigal nods 
Pema Pera: but even so, rules can have a very positive influence 
Pema Pera: I'm always reminded of that, when I visit Japan 
Eliza Madrigal: yes? 
Eliza Madrigal: As in manners and a general expectation? 
Pema Pera: In a Starbucks in Japan, the people behind the cash register look you in the eye, they smile, they pay attention, they really are there and willing to communicate 
Eliza Madrigal: That makes a difference, I'd imagine, in the whole day 
Pema Pera: and when I go back to New York, half the time those people in the same role are looking at their co-workers and continuing their conversation while ignoring their client even though they are counting out the money for them 
Pema Pera: always a shock that lasts a few days before I get used to it again . . . . 
   
sophia Placebo: the spirit of that joy is still living in Japanese culture ? 
Pema Pera: problems that go very deep . . . . 
Pema Pera: oh yes, Sophia, very much so 
sophia Placebo: wonderfull! 
Pema Pera: appreciation for details, in everything, from electronic manifacturing to wrapping a present 
Pema Pera: and receiving a little present: they actually use chakras, probably without being aware of it 
Pema Pera: when receiving a present you bow slightly and bring the present to your forehead, and then you straighten and hold the present in from of your heart 
Eliza Madrigal: Oh! Nice!! 
Pema Pera: clearly connected with chi/prana energy centers 
Pema Pera: you can feel it 
sophia Placebo: so higly appreciation gesture 
Pema Pera: but it's part of their gestures, like shaking hands, I'm sure they don't think about it, but I'm equally sure they do feel it  

 Eliza Madrigal: The little things. Our life is full of them and yet we rush by 

sophia Placebo: ok :)) 
Pema Pera: unless forced to, or willing to adapt to foreigners; normally they bow 
Pema Pera: the connections are energetic, through gestures, not physical

Shared a little moment here which sticks out to my memory as strongly as a significant holiday might! :)

Eliza Madrigal: I was paying my son's fees one day at his school, and the lady behind the counter and I bowed kind of instinctively. It was such a sweet moment... out of nowhere. I hardly knew her :)

Pema Pera: ... in Japan "watch out" or "take care" literally is said as "use your chi" -- chi is not an exotic word, it's as ordinary as water or stone :) 
Pema Pera: so they're quite good at pinning it down, traditionally, to a large extent :-) 
Pema Pera: to begin to feel an affection for someone is in Japanese to let someone into your chi -- many expressions like that 
Pema Pera: ("chi" is the Chinese word; in Japanese it is "ki") 

            

Pema Pera: oh, I'm not implying that Japanese as a whole are more kind; rather that their language offers them a tool to talk/think/work with energy 
Pema Pera: and that their training forces them to pay a lot more attention to each other than in most other countries, which is a condition for the possibility of appreciation -- not a cause, but it sure helps 

            

2009.07.22 13:00 - You Say Yes, I Say No

http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/07/2009.07.22_13%3a00_-_You_Say_Yes%2c_I_Say_No 

Questa Blackheart: How about "change" as a topic?
Fefonz Quan: please take it on Queasta
Questa Blackheart: I have just been told I will likely be made redundant.
Questa Blackheart: The thing I find quite amusing is that most people look sympathetic and ask me if I'm OK.
Fox Monacular: from my experience with immigrants I find that women seem to tolerate change better than men...?
Fefonz Quan: somehow women tend to be more emotionally flexible than Men. maybe they are not expected to be 'tough' all teh time

Fox Monacular: perhaps it has something to do with the fact that women go through intense physical changes... when have babies for example

Mickorod Renard: men build their castles of security,,if u know what i mean,,and dont like having to recalculate the risks all over again
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Fefonz Quan: yes, moving a castle is harder than a tent :)

Fox Monacular: it's also cultural.. for men sometimes it's seen as weakness to express emotions
Fefonz Quan: right.
Fefonz Quan: but then, when the wind blows hard, the tough trees break while the flexible ones bend till it is over
Mickorod Renard: expresing emotions of anger are expected of men,,and when they do, they are critisized for it
Fox Monacular: yes, so resistance is futile really
Eliza Madrigal: So women are Palm trees?

Eliza Madrigal: we were talking a little this morning about how language affects culture, etc. also. So a word like 'kindness' is thought to be weak' or a female quality when it takes much strength inwardly/security to be kind.

Mickorod Renard: I came to realise that the regular person I had debate with was happy to become aggressive with me,,now I record the situation and for some reason they dont want to carry on with the debate..weird

2009.07.22 19:00 - Architects and Scientists and labels

http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/07/2009.07.22_19%3a00_-_Architects_and_Scientists 

stevenaia Michinaga: I was just finishing leftovers from dinner with Adams, Wol, and Fefonz last night
Pema Pera: It was such a pleasure to meet Wol in Germany, last month
stevenaia Michinaga: the most interesting thing I have found is accents don't make themselves evident in Sl w/o voice
stevenaia Michinaga: it adds so much to hear someone
stevenaia Michinaga: aside from leaving your avatar in sl
Pema Pera: yes, it is like final meeting the poet, after having read some of her poetry
stevenaia Michinaga: or hearing them read their own work
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: each PaB session is in some sense a joint piece of poetry
stevenaia Michinaga: it was striking the similarities amongst us, all work in some kind of visual field and each has an appreciation for complex databases

2009.07.23 01:00

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2009.07.23 07:00 - The "If" Koan

http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/07/2009.07.23_07%3a00_-_The_%22If%22_Koan 

genesis Zhangsun: so my tendency is to get a bit obsessive
genesis Zhangsun: I take an idea and my mind chews on it
genesis Zhangsun: far too long
genesis Zhangsun: perhaps even until it has turned to dust :)
genesis Zhangsun: so meditation allows me to let go of that usual thinking pattern
genesis Zhangsun: I drop it
genesis Zhangsun: but it also continues to work in the background
genesis Zhangsun: but in a slower way
genesis Zhangsun: more space for thoughts
genesis Zhangsun: less pressured
genesis Zhangsun: so while I don't focus on "insight:
genesis Zhangsun: in my meditation
genesis Zhangsun: and more "calm"
genesis Zhangsun: I notice that towards the end
genesis Zhangsun: sometimes in a very shocking way
genesis Zhangsun: a little piece of processed information comes to the surface
genesis Zhangsun: in a very neat, beautiful kind of symbolic way
genesis Zhangsun: much more understandable than the garble in my head when I believe I am working on something by thinking about it logically/rationally
genesis Zhangsun: the symbol is very complete
genesis Zhangsun: capturing all of kinds of things I could never put into words
genesis Zhangsun: except maybe in poetry
genesis Zhangsun: :)
genesis Zhangsun: these symbols feel very intimate
genesis Zhangsun: only I could hold them up to myself
genesis Zhangsun: a therapist could never do it for me
genesis Zhangsun: the self exploration also has something so relaxed about it
genesis Zhangsun: I feel trust
genesis Zhangsun: for the process, for myself, in Being
Pema Pera: that's a beautiful summary!

genesis Zhangsun: I suppose the idea is to bring the sitting mentality with you in the movement

Pema Pera: so how do you "stick with it" without getting too tense?
Pema Pera: playing without "practicing" and without getting sloppy?
genesis Zhangsun: I try to think of it like brushing my teeth
genesis Zhangsun: it is something I do for maintenance
genesis Zhangsun: I don't try to "add" any extra dimension
genesis Zhangsun: of ambition
genesis Zhangsun: or hard discipline

Pema Pera: can you say more about the notion of "maintenance"? You mean this as opposed to reaching/adding/perfecting, right?
genesis Zhangsun: I once described it as starting with something as coarse and overblown like a bat to hit a marble
genesis Zhangsun: eventually you are playing ping pong
genesis Zhangsun: and then just a flick of your finger
genesis Zhangsun: than no finger at all

Pema Pera: what you have just outlined, this whole path from bat to ping pong to flicking to nothing -- all that still has a flavor of a path, a process, a program, a kind of agenda
Pema Pera: do you think it would be possible to drop EVEN THAT ?

The "if" koan something Pema and I have been discussing.  "If" you see then it is enough...what about dropping the "if" the condition, what happens? 

Pema Pera: that's the "if" we have been talking about
genesis Zhangsun: yes it is
genesis Zhangsun: the elusive if
Pema Pera: any path glorifies an "if" -- if you don't take this path it won't work
Pema Pera: you'll be doomed
Pema Pera: not enlightened
Pema Pera: but if you don't take any path, then what -- most likely you're even more stuck
Pema Pera: so what gives?
genesis Zhangsun: hmm yes tricky koan
genesis Zhangsun: still pondering it
Pema Pera: Stim and I have given it a code name : "Namkhai Norbu's if"

Pema Pera: If Namkhai Norbu would walk into this room (we were sitting in my office in Princeton)
Pema Pera: and would join the conversation, the he would likely say something in response to the Time, Space, Knowledge vision
Pema Pera: "sure, IF you can see what TSK points to, THEN that would be equivalent to chan/zen or dzogchen"
Pema Pera: meaning that the essence is similar, and that it is all a question of whether or to what extent you get it
Pema Pera: Now Stim added, cautiously as you know his way:
Pema Pera: maybe TSK is different. Maybe there is no "if"
Pema Pera: . . . . . . . . . . . .
genesis Zhangsun: play as being seems to build off of that precisely

If we are at the end why practice?
genesis Zhangsun: why do we practice, why explore using these methods?
Pema Pera: no reason
genesis Zhangsun: so if they are not to see better
genesis Zhangsun: they are to celebrate the seeing?
Pema Pera: that's the koan

2009.07.23 13:00 - Remain in Light

http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/07/2009.07.23_13%3a00_-_Remain_in_Light 

Pila captures the IF Koan by the tail, knowingly or not, and rides the tiger home

    Shyama Sheryffe: may i ask what is ur approach Pila
    Pila Mulligan: my approach to huna?
    Shyama Sheryffe: to life..lol
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: ah, i am happy :)
    Shyama Sheryffe: lol
    Pila Mulligan: seems the easiest thing to do

   Pila Mulligan: i ching is attributed to Fu Xi, maybe 5000 years ago
    Pila Mulligan: it is an excellent teaching tool
    Pila Mulligan: I do not use it as an oracle, that is a lesser role if you ask me
    Shyama Sheryffe: i have tried it sometimes and it was so fitting
    Pila Mulligan: yes, it has that element of being timely
    Shyama Sheryffe: how do u use it then ?
    Pila Mulligan: I begin my day (usually at 4:00 am) with a silent meditation, then an i ching meditation, then tai chi -- takes about an hour
    Pila Mulligan: so I use it as a daily meditation
    Pila Mulligan: and it keeps its timeliness each day, it seems :)

    Shyama Sheryffe: wu wei ?
    Pila Mulligan: wu wei is a popular expression often interpreted as non-action
    Pila Mulligan: it is a little deeper than that however
    Pila Mulligan: it is closer to being in harmony with nature
    Pila Mulligan: not acting, as an alternative to acting
    Pila Mulligan: sometimes it is appropriate not to act, and that is more often than we may think
    Shyama Sheryffe: hm..witnessing
    Pila Mulligan: more going with the flow, letting events happen
    Shyama Sheryffe: nods
    Pila Mulligan: but this involves a much lesser known idea called the dao of i, or the way of change
    Pila Mulligan: the flow of events is described by the dao of i

    Eos Amaterasu: Since we come out of nature, perhaps one approach is to rest in nature's lap
    Pila Mulligan: nature is full of reality, and as Eos just said, it is not just a simple place
    Eos Amaterasu: which is kind of resting in the question
    Pila Mulligan: yes, that is kind of the idea of wu wei, lap resting

   Eos Amaterasu: I think the 9 secs practice is a bit of letting go, not immediately grasping on, answers or intentions or anything
    Pila Mulligan: a lap pause :)
    Eos Amaterasu wonders how far this metaphor (?) will be taken
    Pila Mulligan: several laps at least
    Eos Amaterasu: argh!
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: actually that is a lovely image used in the Dzogchen and Mahamudra traditions:
    Eos Amaterasu: that realization is like the child luminosity returning to the mother luminosity
    Eos Amaterasu: like a child jumping back into its mother's lap

    Eos Amaterasu: how do you find wu wei in your life, PIla?
    Pila Mulligan: this was what we talked about earlier
    Pila Mulligan: wu wei is deeper for me than just non-action
    Eos Amaterasu: non-action is probably as full of surprises as resting in we wei's lap
    Pila Mulligan: yes, it is a dynamic idea -- it requires consciousness as a consistent activity :)

    Eos Amaterasu: Finding non-action in action is the thing
    Pila Mulligan: yes, the harmonious moment
    Eos Amaterasu: it probably helps to be coming from non-action to the extent there is contrast
    Pila Mulligan: well, there is a lot of contrast, for most people, in our cultures
    Eos Amaterasu: so that as things arise they do so from empty/fullness
    Eos Amaterasu: you think you're falling into the gaps
    Eos Amaterasu: but sometimes you find things rising out of the gaps

    Eos Amaterasu: sudden turns are also in there (witness Gretzky, Zidane, Bird....)
    Pila Mulligan: [Michael Jordan] could tell when the nature of the game shifted and he surfed it with strong chi
    Pila Mulligan: there is a chinese term 'dragging your wheels'
    Pila Mulligan: that is to avoid letting the ground get out form under you :)
    Eos Amaterasu: nice image!
    Pila Mulligan: yes, a good leader needs timing
    Pila Mulligan: so MJ would drag his wheels when the flow was contrary, then let them loose when the time came

    Eos Amaterasu: so you churn into your actual experience, rather than trying to avoid it
    Eos Amaterasu: and if you churn with empty hands/wheels
    Eos Amaterasu: you get into the whole field
    Pila Mulligan: yes, that is where wu wei likes to stay, in the whole field

    Pila Mulligan: and a great deal of it is done with breathing :)
    Eos Amaterasu: What would you suggest re breathing in terms of the 9 secs, if anything?
    Pila Mulligan: a deep breath takes me about 20 seconds
    Pila Mulligan: so do a full breath, however long it takes
    Eos Amaterasu: You also kind of perceive with your breath (especially the "per" part)
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: that is the light of the breath
    Pila Mulligan: it is the connection to the interrelatedness, the light

2009.07.23 19:00 - Opening the mind's eye

http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/07/2009.07.23_19%3a00_-_Opening_the_mind's_eye 

Playing with the 9-second pause - What's the magic word? 

Sylectra Darwin: Solobill, pretend I am a complete newbie.
Solobill Laville: Ah, er, OK
Sylectra Darwin: Tell me why I would want to try the practice.
Solobill Laville: Often we miss what is right in front of us
Solobill Laville: And often it is quite beautiful

Solobill Laville: Pema said something a few weeks back
Solobill Laville: about sitting on the edge of the Grand Canyon
Solobill Laville: If all you think about is how much you want a hamburger, you won't see it

Sylectra Darwin: Monkey mind, isn't that one way to describe it?
Solobill Laville: oh, yes
Sylectra Darwin: I like to think of it as monkey mind - because it seems a comical and loving way of thinking about it.

Sylectra Darwin: I do best when I have a gentle sense of humor about my states of distraction, like, Oh, there goes my silly mind, racing ahead of the present again. Hi! Come on back!
Eos Amaterasu: "the pause that refreshes"
Solobill Laville: yep

Eos Amaterasu: It would be interesting to buld it into social situations
Eos Amaterasu: (like the one we're in)
Eos Amaterasu: I was just recalling another analogy to what we're doing that came up in another session - the 5 times daily call to prayer in Islam.
Eos Amaterasu: Or more mundanely like as part of meeting structures.
Eos Amaterasu: where you say ahead of time there will be little gaps.

Pila Mulligan: there is something somewhat similar to the 9 second pause in I Ching chapter 31 (this Web site has many forms of the text for this work), and I've done that one for many years -- no one has ever noticed it (the pause) in a social setting as far as I can tell.
Pila Mulligan: the second yao (verse) of gua (chapter) 31 in the I ching says if you feel an influfence on your calf, tarry to avoid misfortune -- it has to do with balance.
Pila Mulligan: so when I feel it i pause
Pila Mulligan: no one notices :)
Eos Amaterasu wonders if that is like the drag of the wheels (discussed in previous session) that gets you "into the field"
Pila Mulligan: it is not mystical :)
Pila Mulligan: maybe Eos, I had not thought of it, but it could be

Sylectra Darwin: It's sort of the opposite of that game on PeeWee's Playhouse where, if he says the secret word, everybody cheers.
Sylectra Darwin: I think the idea was something which would come up unexpectedly or randomly in conversation.
Eos Amaterasu: a friend of mine had a parrot that said, "wake up!"
Sylectra Darwin: Good one.
Solobill Laville: nice
Eos Amaterasu: (I guess we could script that in SL :-)

2009.07.24 01:00 - At the point of sleep.....

http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/07/2009.07.24_01%3a00_-_At_the_point_of_sleep..... 

Scathach Rhiadra: you have an interest in the process of dreaming Bertrum, do you know anything about the transition from conscious to unconscious in sleep? 
Bertrum Quan: Are you thinking about moving between sleep and no consciousness? 
Scathach Rhiadra: maybe, or actually being aware of the process of losing consciousness, like external senses, then internal senses closing down as it were, but still fully aware, if that makes sense 
Bertrum Quan: Yes, intuitively, I think that's possible. But in terms of the neuroscience, I don't know. I did witness something along the lines that you are suggesting. I witnessed the final moments of someone on their deathbed. They were deeply unconscouscious--not responseive to any stimulation, cold (losing oxygen and turning blue) and yet at the moment of death (perhaps for a few seconds beyond, they suddenly came to consciousness--essentially bid farewell. What you suggest, is what I believe I observed, 

Bertrum Quan: I'm just not sure entering the sleep state equals entering a state of no consciousness. What's interesting about the sleep state is how memory functions for most of us. That is to say, there are large segments we don't recall. But that does not equate in my mind with a lack of counsciousness. 

Scathach Rhiadra: well, exploring may not be the word I would use, it is a sort of accidental exploration 
Scathach Rhiadra: it started with something Wol mentioned, a full anaestethic, during which I 'woke up', but had no sesnse of being located anywhere, or having a body 
Wol Euler: ooooh 
Wol Euler: tell us more? 
Scathach Rhiadra: it was just like being aware, but not of anything, there were not thoughts or feelings. then I became aware of sound, like murmuring, still no location or direction. 

Scathach Rhiadra: ah, but there seems to be a remnant which carried over to to the sleeping process, or the going to sleep part. Instead of drifting off to sleep as normal, sometimes I just don't lose awareness during the process 
Scathach Rhiadra: it is usually when my mind is very still anyway, so not much thinking 

Bertrum Quan: How has this experience changed you? added to your understanding of consciousness? of reality? 
Scathach Rhiadra: I suppose is has made me think that being conscious is not the fundamental state we think it is, there is something more basic to our nature 

Scathach Rhiadra: maybe it encompasses consciousness, like it is there all the time, even if we are not aware of it, and consciousness/unconsciousness can arise within it or from it 
Scathach Rhiadra: and certainly thought or feelings or perceptions are part of what I call consciousness, but there is still this awareness that is very alive, maybe not the right word, but difficult to describe 
Bertrum Quan: Yes, I think I know what you mean. 
Scathach Rhiadra: anyway, it is just a curiosity I suppose, I just never knew what to do with it, if anything, the sleep experience I mean 

2009.07.24 07:00 - Identify, re-identify... un-identify?

http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/07/2009.07.24_07%3a00_-_Identify%2c_re-identify..._un-identify%3f 

2009.07.24 13:00

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2009.07.24 19:00 - Science and Reality

http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/07/2009.07.24_19%3a00_-_Science_and_Reality