2014.11.26 01:00 - sympathy, empathy and compassion

The Guardian for this meeting was Darren Islar. The comments are by Darren Islar

We started of with Ava and I

Darren Islar: I don't think anyone will be coming but we'll see
Darren Islar: you do know this gets recorded and placed on the wiki, which is available to everyone?
Avaline DeCuir: yes

The topic
Darren Islar: Any topic you like to talk about?
Avaline DeCuir: I will let you choose
Darren Islar: what's the difference between empathy and sympathy?
Avaline DeCuir: hmmm interesting topic
Avaline DeCuir: I think the main difference is in the way it is percieved by the one doing it ... by that I mean that I think that empathy is to feel how the other person is feeling perhaps because you have experienced something similar that you can relate to
Avaline DeCuir: whereas sympathy is feeling bad for someone's suffering because they are suffering .. without having to relate to or understand exactly how they are suffering
Darren Islar: the perception of the one receiving it will be empathy since sympathy doesn't require a relationship .. or can it perceived the same way by the other?
Avaline DeCuir: I think it is subtly recieved differently in sympathy as opposed to empathy
Avaline DeCuir: I think of empathy as sharing an experience .. perahps over time and distance perhaps with different actors and surroundings but nevertheless it is a shared experience ... whereas sympathy ... one has the experience the other supports from outside .. it is not shared
Darren Islar: can there be empathy when the experience is not shared, I mean, is it possible that you start to understand what someone feels without having the same experience ... could empathy create new experiences?
--BELL--
Avaline DeCuir: yes and no .. you need to have experienced something similar or that you can somehow relate to the experience the other is having .. otherwise it is not shared in the same way ...i sympathy yes you share but in a very different way ... you share emotions of your own I think ... the one suffering has their own emotions and the one giving sympathy goes through their own emotions .. which might amount to simply feeling uncomfortable that the other person is suffering ... it is a very hard concept to fully single one out from the other .. but for me there is a separateness in sympathy that isnt there in empathy
Darren Islar: that would mean there is more connection when we speak of empathy
Avaline DeCuir: yes i would think so
Darren Islar: how is empathy related to compassion?
Avaline DeCuir: I think that both empathy and sympathy are related to compassion .. but there are differences

Bhang joins us

Darren Islar: hello Bang?
Avaline DeCuir: Hello
Bhang Tyran: hello may i join you?
Darren Islar: sure
Darren Islar: have you been here before?
Bhang Tyran: yes many times
Bhang Tyran: very good alks
Darren Islar: ok ... the subject started of with sympathy and empathy ... moving towards compassion now
Bhang Tyran: but please continue
Darren Islar: I would say empathy is more related to compassion than sympathy, what is the difference for you?
Bhang Tyran: sympathy is look from the outside
Bhang Tyran: compassion is understanding?
Avaline DeCuir: with empathy you can feel compassion for the one suffering because you have shared the experience or similar experiences .. with sympathy .. your compassion is centered on feeling sorry that the other one is hurting but not really understanding the root of that particular hurt
Avaline DeCuir: with true compassion though I don't think it matters what the root is .. the point of compassion is that you can feel that the other is hurting and wish to help them to feel better
Darren Islar: I think that is what we came down to as well bhang
Bhang Tyran: very butsu
Bhang Tyran: the root is unimportant
Bhang Tyran: wise
Bhang Tyran: its like trying to feel some body elses itch on their nose
Bhang Tyran: you cant
Bhang Tyran: but know how much it sucks
Avaline DeCuir: I think that to have compassion we don't need to experience their pain .. just to acknowledge it and to give it the space it needs
Darren Islar: especially when you can't scratch yourself :)
Bhang Tyran: yeah the knowing
Bhang Tyran: what of the ebola victims
Darren Islar: can empathy get in the way of compassion, since understanding might lead to actions that get in the way of compassion?
Bhang Tyran: how could we ever know their suffering? it doesnt matter
Avaline DeCuir: yes
Bhang Tyran: we can see their pain
Bhang Tyran: conflict of interests
Bhang Tyran: leaping
Avaline DeCuir: I think compassion can get int he way if we are not careful . or perhaps it is empathy and sympathy that get in the way and compassion is the one which gives it the space it needs
Bhang Tyran: maybe compassion is the underlying emotion?
Avaline DeCuir: if someone is suffering our response with sympathy and empathy is to try and fix it .. or take it away ... but it may not be in the best interests of the person suffering to take the pain away .. it may be an imprtant catalyst to learning or advancing
Bhang Tyran: and sympathy/empathy are a split
--BELL--
Bhang Tyran: oooo thats good
Bhang Tyran: i wonder if a caterpiller feels pain when it meta blah blah
Bhang Tyran: into a butterfly
Bhang Tyran: right?
Avaline DeCuir: Compassion is giving the emotion and the experience space ... while supporting the person having the experience ....and yes good point Bhang .. we can have compassion for animals and insects too
Bhang Tyran: but is the butterfly suffering or is it a hellraiser kind of love/pain thing?
Bhang Tyran: or imagine a snake shedding
Bhang Tyran: thats gotta be unpleasent
Avaline DeCuir: we caon't know because we are not butterflies ... we can relate it only to human experiences ... and are they the same?
Bhang Tyran: probably
Bhang Tyran: nerves and such you know
Bhang Tyran: darren?
Darren Islar: sorry was afk, had a phone call
Bhang Tyran: my wife is a doula
Avaline DeCuir: but we can't possibly know ... do snakes have nerves in their skin in a way that would experience pain? ... it is probably not that much different to female menses once a month ... and that is not painful for every woman
Bhang Tyran: hahaha
Bhang Tyran: menses
Avaline DeCuir: well it is true .. it s a shedding of an internal skin
Bhang Tyran: i can not relate to that
Bhang Tyran: right
Bhang Tyran: is pain a bad thing?
Bhang Tyran: in a no sadomaso way
Bhang Tyran: it is deffinately educational
Avaline DeCuir: well from a biological point of view .. yes ... pain is what tells the body and brain that there is something wrong
Bhang Tyran: child birth?
Avaline DeCuir: is not always painful
Bhang Tyran: right its crazy
Avaline DeCuir: some experience more pain than others
Darren Islar: then there is definately something wrong :) childbirth asks for action
Bhang Tyran: some girls cum super hard hahaha
Avaline DeCuir: but the point is that while pain definitely has a biological function .. it is quite a western notion that we should not suffer any pain
Bhang Tyran: right darren urgent attention is needed
Darren Islar: but yes, it might be that wrong decisions can be made when going on empathy
Darren Islar: which might get in the way of compassion
Bhang Tyran: how are they different?
Darren Islar: does the kind of relatiionship makes a difference between empathy and sympathy
Avaline DeCuir: I think we are more likely to make wrong decisions when going on sympathy .. because we are acting out of our own discomfort that the person's suffering is giving us
Darren Islar: quite right I think
Avaline DeCuir: but empathy can also lead us astray if we are not also compassionate
Bhang Tyran: do sympathy or empathy demand charity?
Bhang Tyran: or we can be mislead
Avaline DeCuir: let's use childbirth as a useful example to try and explore the differences ...
Bhang Tyran: where does self preservation come into play?
Darren Islar: in sympathy and empathy there might be emotions involved which don't occur with compassion, feelings probably yes, but emotions often lead us to do things that might be in our interestest, but not in that of the 'victim'
Bhang Tyran: if i ignore that mans suffering i may live to help my family
Avaline DeCuir: in the childbirth scenario ... when a woman gets to the stage where she needs to push the pain is at its highest
Darren Islar: that's a difficult one
Avaline DeCuir: if one is sympathetic .. one wants to do anything to stop her pain for her
Avaline DeCuir: if one is empathetic .. one knows how much it hurts and again wants to try and relieve her pain
Avaline DeCuir: but ... to take away the pain at that stage takes away the urge to push .. and so it puts the baby and mother at rish
Avaline DeCuir: risk
Bhang Tyran: thats why dads have broken hands after hahaha
Bhang Tyran: right modern medicine does it wrong
Avaline DeCuir: with compassion .. you understand that the woman is in a lot of pain .. you support her .. but you give the pain the space it needs to urge her pushing on and bring about a quick and healthy birth
Bhang Tyran: but empathy requires experience doesnt it?
Avaline DeCuir: yes
Avaline DeCuir: empathy requires similar experience
Bhang Tyran: theres the difference
Bhang Tyran: sympathy is uncomfortable to the observer
Avaline DeCuir: so is empathy
Bhang Tyran: empathy is painful
Bhang Tyran: because you know
--BELL--
Darren Islar: empathy might be less uncomfortable, it's closer, more connected
Avaline DeCuir: but if we have compassion ... does it exclude sympathy or empathy? Or can one be sympathetic .. or have empathy but still act out of compassion?
Darren Islar: to me compassion can't exist without sympathy or empathy, since you need to know when real suffering occurs, but I think it's not enough
Bhang Tyran: i think true compassion is the foundation. it is innert unto itself
Bhang Tyran: in most people anyway
Bhang Tyran: real compassion
Avaline DeCuir: but true compassion doesnt always mean that you do what empathy or sumpathy would urge you to do
Bhang Tyran: love for a stranger
Darren Islar: it's part of humanity, part of humans?
Bhang Tyran: maybe
Bhang Tyran: i meant innate
Darren Islar: no, so there is more to it
Bhang Tyran: so the budha say
Bhang Tyran: true love is with out bounderies
Bhang Tyran: would you have empathy for your enamy?
Bhang Tyran: when he is choking?
Avaline DeCuir: I think compassion is something that we need to work on because it doesn't come naturally ... what comes naturally is to try and relieve suffering ... but that is not always compassionate
Bhang Tyran: and you could save him?
Bhang Tyran: its really just words what is the diff. symantics?
Darren Islar: when you define empathy as being able to understand what one is going through? yes ... but maybe their needs to be some sort of relation as well to let it come through
Darren Islar: but if we can have empathy for enemies, then we can become compassionate as well
Bhang Tyran: like a stack
Bhang Tyran: an ordered set?
Bhang Tyran: one follows the other?
Avaline DeCuir: I don't agree
Avaline DeCuir: compassion may dictate an action that is against what we would do as someone who empathises
Avaline DeCuir: or has sympathy
Bhang Tyran: is compassion a higher function that depends on the other 2?
Bhang Tyran: im sorry
Avaline DeCuir: compassion is a completely different function I think .. it can arise out of either sympathy or empathy .. but it may also go against them
Darren Islar: sorry?
Bhang Tyran: thought i got carried away and became annoying
Avaline DeCuir: did you?
Bhang Tyran: hahaha hmmmm..
Darren Islar: I think it's an interesting question Bhang
Bhang Tyran: ok
Darren Islar: is that always true? I remember the story of a wounded Irak soldier, who has been lying there for several hours under fire from both sides, until two American soldiers got him out risking their own lives
Bhang Tyran: ooooh that true compassion
Darren Islar: but then we would need to define 'higher'
Avaline DeCuir: is that compassion or is it empathy?
Bhang Tyran: free will
Bhang Tyran: and nato orders
Avaline DeCuir: did they put their lives at risk because of compassion for him or because they felt uncomfortable knowing he was out there suffering?
Darren Islar: maybe as something that can grow into real compassion
Bhang Tyran: medics arent killers
Darren Islar: interesting question, you can even wonder if that makes a difference
Bhang Tyran: that would be the worst job in the army
Avaline DeCuir: I would say that compassion would be to go and lay down in his spot and die for him ... allowing him to go back to his family
Avaline DeCuir: but that is not empathy or sympathy to do that
Bhang Tyran: thats lunacy ava
Bhang Tyran: :)
Darren Islar: why if that is not necessarily? in this case the Irakian soldier might have gone home as well
Bhang Tyran: now the monk burning himself alive?
Avaline DeCuir: well I guesws it would depend on the circumstances .. but if someone had to die that day ... then the compassionate path would be to die in his spot
Darren Islar: ponders
Bhang Tyran: ponders indeed
Bhang Tyran: thats good ava
Bhang Tyran: nice to meet you both
--BELL--
Avaline DeCuir smiles
Bhang Tyran: jesus christ pose
Bhang Tyran: ting
Darren Islar: you start with 'if somebody had to die that day'
Avaline DeCuir: ok think of something a little more mundane yet quite realistic to our lives
Bhang Tyran: im drinking a lagunitas I.P.A>
Darren Islar: people did die that day but as for the three men involved here, maybe nobody needed to day
Bhang Tyran: right darren
Avaline DeCuir: you are at the supermarket checkout and your turn is next .. but there is a lady with a very full trolley .. and 3 kids all screaming .. one is yelling that she needs to go to the toilet or she will wet herself ...
Bhang Tyran: people are dicks
Avaline DeCuir: sympathy is to think .. poor woman
Avaline DeCuir: empathy is to know what it was like when your kids were like that
Bhang Tyran: i think its the other way round
Avaline DeCuir: compassion is to tell her to go before you .. even though her trolley is full to the brim and it is going to delay you by at least 10 minutes
Darren Islar: hmmmm ... interesting
Bhang Tyran: i agree
Darren Islar: compassion is action
Avaline DeCuir: yes I guess so
Bhang Tyran: letting the old person go first
Bhang Tyran: its basic manners
Bhang Tyran: i am american
Darren Islar: yes, depends on the intention
Bhang Tyran: lets just say...
Darren Islar: whether you do it because you feel you should or out of compassion, because you know she must be feeling awful and need to go home to take care of her kids
Avaline DeCuir: How about .. compassion is acting in the best interests of the other person even if it is not convenient or pleasant for you to do so .. even when it is hard for you to do so
Bhang Tyran: there is an ancient tree that happens to be in the way of a retirement home under construction?
Bhang Tyran: to take the human fasctor out
Darren Islar: nods to Ava, yes
Bhang Tyran: we are very species centric
Bhang Tyran: if the tree is older than all the old folks...
Avaline DeCuir: yes .. we are hard wired to be so .. but then it is a biological imperrative for most species too
Darren Islar: go on Bhang
Bhang Tyran: why do only consider these things in human conext?
Bhang Tyran: what of fish
Bhang Tyran: slugs
Bhang Tyran: birds?
Bhang Tyran: our" compassion" shouldnt be different
Avaline DeCuir: well as for the tree and the old folks home .. the first act would be to find an alternative if one is possible
Darren Islar: you mentioned Buddhism, any animal would be regarded with the same compassion for animals
Bhang Tyran: im not buddhist but still...
Avaline DeCuir: but you could also look at it another way ...
Avaline DeCuir: it is one tree but maybe fifty old people ... and if you consider how long the home will stand and serve the community .. it may be hundreds of old folks ... what is the greater loss?
Darren Islar: no just saying that within Buddhism that is worked out, but yes
Bhang Tyran: what if the corporate machine dont give a fuck? pardon the french
Bhang Tyran: ava
Bhang Tyran: darren all life is sacred right
Bhang Tyran: high five
Darren Islar: heh, high five
Avaline DeCuir: ok looking at animals ... where my son works it is illegal to feed the wild dingos ... if one was sympathetic or empathetic one might be tempted to feed them
Bhang Tyran: dingos haha
Darren Islar: ye
Darren Islar: yes
Avaline DeCuir: but for compassionate reasons they are not allowed to feed them
Avaline DeCuir: because it makes them dependent on humans
Darren Islar: yes
Bhang Tyran: not like the roos who are road kill?
Bhang Tyran: the poor joeis
Bhang Tyran: there is a phrase
Bhang Tyran: splitting hairs?
--BELL--
Bhang Tyran: love it
Bhang Tyran: i like the gongs alot
Bhang Tyran: ting
Avaline DeCuir: well ... it has been an interesting discussion
Bhang Tyran: i hear that sound in my head when i smile hahaha
Darren Islar: hehe
Avaline DeCuir smiles
Darren Islar: yeah it was
Bhang Tyran: good talking
Bhang Tyran: i may venture on
Darren Islar: so do we
Bhang Tyran: its been very pleasant
Avaline DeCuir: I wish you a good evening
Darren Islar: yes it was
Darren Islar: see you Bhang
Avaline DeCuir: bye bye Bhang
Darren Islar: I will be here on the wednesday mornings
Bhang Tyran: bye bye
Bhang Tyran: on the wednesday
Avaline DeCuir: me too mostly
Bhang Tyran: duuuuuuuh
Bhang Tyran: i got nothin
Bhang Tyran: roflcopter
Darren Islar: ok, see you
Avaline DeCuir: bye bye
Bhang Tyran: klingons here i come