2015.09.07 13:00 - Where do our beliefs come from?

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Catrinamonblue Resident: hi :)
Aphrodite Macbain: How are things on Labour day?
Catrinamonblue Resident: winding down :) went to a beer fest in Chambly QC this week end :)
Aphrodite Macbain: fun!
Catrinamonblue Resident: it was :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Lots of local beer?
Catrinamonblue Resident: lots of all kinds of bear :) too many to count :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: got a little tipsy there ;)
Aphrodite Macbain: I hope you didn't drink all of them :-)
Catrinamonblue Resident: we tried to :)
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: Kids back to school this week?
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes :)
Aphrodite Macbain: lots to buy?
Catrinamonblue Resident: back to the usual routines :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: no not this year :) boys are easier
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Catrinamonblue Resident: don't need a fashion statement for the first day back :)
Aphrodite Macbain: he he
Aphrodite Macbain: I thought that boys had to be fashionable too these days
Aphrodite Macbain: Have you been coming to Monday morning meetings here?
Catrinamonblue Resident: I can't... I work then
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm never awake
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bruce!
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Aph! Hi, Cat!
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: Looks like it's still hot where you are
Bruce Mowbray: Oh boy. It sure is.
Catrinamonblue Resident: it's very hot here
Bruce Mowbray: But I'm hunkered down in my A/C'd bedroom.
Aphrodite Macbain: It's cool here 15C
Bruce Mowbray: brrrr.
Aphrodite Macbain: about 60F
Bruce Mowbray: Let me check...
Catrinamonblue Resident: oh I wish..... it's seriously too hot here :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: makes it hard to sleep, doesn't it?
Bruce Mowbray: Our current temp here is 88F.
Aphrodite Macbain: too hot
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Bruce Mowbray: yeppers.
Aphrodite Macbain: I tend to slow down to almost a stop when it's that hot. The opposite of flies :-)
Bruce Mowbray: Lovely changes here in the pavilion.
Aphrodite Macbain: oh?
Aphrodite Macbain: since yesterday?
Bruce Mowbray: I like the circular pool.
Aphrodite Macbain: ah right
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Bleu took our suggestions to heart, it seems.
Aphrodite Macbain: I like both shapes
Bruce Mowbray: me too.
Aphrodite Macbain: I like Bleu's Platonic justification for a square one...:-)
Bruce Mowbray: I like the balance or square and circle.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: It's restful
Bruce Mowbray: Also, the cushions in a circle... I like that too.
Bruce Mowbray: Have you recently encountered Ken McLeod, Aph?
Aphrodite Macbain: I get his emails every week
Bruce Mowbray: I saw your email about Unfettered mind.
Bruce Mowbray: I used to belong to a real life group in Columbus that followed his teaching -- and we even had retreats with some of his protégés.
Aphrodite Macbain: I find it a useful source of subject matter for us to discuss
Aphrodite Macbain: nice!
Bruce Mowbray: "Wake Up to Your Life" -- have you read it?
Aphrodite Macbain: Has he been around for a while then?
Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes, a long while.
Bruce Mowbray: It's been years since I went to that group.
Aphrodite Macbain: Did you find it valuable?
Bruce Mowbray: I think he borrowed those "mind killing" questions from Byron Katie, actually.
Bruce Mowbray: Quite valuable... as one more step along the path.
Bruce Mowbray: Right now I am following the teachings of another, though.
Aphrodite Macbain: He acknowledged Byron in the message
Bruce Mowbray: and I find her simply WONDERFUL,
Bruce Mowbray: of course, I've felt that way about all of my teachers for over forty years.
Aphrodite Macbain: I don't know her. Is Byron a she?
Catrinamonblue Resident: who Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Byron is a she.
Bruce Mowbray: Zen recommended her.
Bruce Mowbray: I will find her site and also the site of the woman I am following now. Just a sec, please.
Aphrodite Macbain: Byron Katie, Cat
Catrinamonblue Resident: kk :)
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Zen recommended Byron Katie.
Aphrodite Macbain: I sent out an email referring to Ken's last message.
Aphrodite Macbain: about how we determine whether to accept what we are told - so often we are manipulated by others into accepting or believing things
Bruce Mowbray: Here is Byron Katie's site: http://thework.com/en
Catrinamonblue Resident: I have been listening to Brene Brown's latest book "Rising Strong" on audio...... I like her a lot, she resonates with me
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks Bruce
Catrinamonblue Resident: thanks Bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: yw. This is the woman whose podcasts I listen to whenever I walk. I think she is wonderful: I've downloaded and saved dozens of her talks for listening when I walk.
http://www.tarabrach.com/audioarchives2015.html
Aphrodite Macbain: Tell us about her Cat. I don't know that name.
Bruce Mowbray: or when I simply need to come back to "here and now."
Aphrodite Macbain: so you can "be here now" :-)
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Catrinamonblue Resident: Brene Brown is the girl who did that tedex talk on vulnerability we discussed a few years back I think
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, she is great.
Aphrodite Macbain: ah yes- I remember
Bruce Mowbray: She also did one on Shame.
Bruce Mowbray: Really good.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Catrinamonblue Resident: her latest book is really good....
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- she was very powerful in her honesty
Bruce Mowbray: indeed, authentic.
Catrinamonblue Resident: she still is :)
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Bleu
Bruce Mowbray: That's how I feel about Tara Brach, too.
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Bleu.
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Bleu :)
Aphrodite Macbain: we are enjoying your circular pool and talking about influential people
Bleu Oleander: oh good :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: I've bookmarked the link to look at later Bruce :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Bruce Mowbray: I think if you listen to one or two of her talks, Cat, that you'll find them quite refreshing and useful - at least I find that.
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) will listen and see :)
Bruce Mowbray: kk, let me know, if you'd care to.

Aphrodite Macbain: Bleu, I was wondering about how we decide whether to accept the information we are fed or how to see through to the truth in so much information and recognize it as simply opinion
Bleu Oleander: good question!
Aphrodite Macbain: Bringing to mind "Manufacturing Consent"
Bruce Mowbray: How about neither accept nor reject the information -- only witness it....? or let it witness you....
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: we are subtly, so subtly, fed so many things that brings out or creates fear or need in us
Bruce Mowbray we've been doing that before we're born even :)
Aphrodite Macbain: can you simply be a detached witness Bruce?
Bleu Oleander: well isn't some of it helpful?
Aphrodite Macbain: oh yes
Aphrodite Macbain: much is
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, we do tend to align ourselves - or to pick sides, even... and I think Bleu is right that that is hardwired into us.
Bleu Oleander: that's how we learn
Aphrodite Macbain: but how do we weed out the true from the false?
Bruce Mowbray: But we also have frontal lobes, for discernment.
Bleu Oleander: that's always been the challenge Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- I am sure I dont use it enough :-)
Bruce Mowbray: Everything is true in some context... and everything is also false in some contexts, no?
Catrinamonblue Resident: Not sure if this is what you mean Aph but when someone expresses something to me about me I let it sit with me for a while.... almost try it on for size.......
Catrinamonblue Resident: then let it go.......
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, wonderful plan, Cat.
Bleu Oleander: our frontal lobes are not always reliable either lol
Aphrodite Macbain: yes-that's a useful way of dealing with obvious facts
Aphrodite Macbain: but sometimes we are sold things unawares
Catrinamonblue Resident: such as?
Bruce Mowbray: Are you talking about "beliefs," Aph?
Aphrodite Macbain: I saw the movie on Steve Jobs yesterday
Bleu Oleander: I think media does that to us all the time
Bruce Mowbray: oh wow. How was it?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes Bruce- or fears
Catrinamonblue Resident: ah that's a cool one :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: I liked that movie
Aphrodite Macbain: I found it amazing how thousands of people mourned his death- like he was Gandhi or Martin Luther King
Aphrodite Macbain: He was their hero
Catrinamonblue Resident: listens....
Aphrodite Macbain: they believed in him like a religion
Aphrodite Macbain: he was so good at selling his product
Bruce Mowbray: Not to be advertising, but Tara Brach has some wonderful talks on fear..... In fact, that's how I first discovered her. . .
Aphrodite Macbain: that he was looked on like a prophet
Bruce Mowbray: Jobs was quite a powerful man.
Bruce Mowbray: Charismatic, and feared.
Aphrodite Macbain: but he was also a very cruel and morally bankrupt person
Bruce Mowbray: as well as admired, of course.
Catrinamonblue Resident: aren't we all Aph?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I have heard that also, Aph.
Catrinamonblue Resident: to a degree
Aphrodite Macbain: that's what I mean by discernment
Bruce Mowbray: nods, agrees.
Aphrodite Macbain: people accepted his product and him without ever thinking about its implications
Bruce Mowbray: But I don't think anyone else has "my" moral discernment -- only I have that.
Aphrodite Macbain: Sherry Turkle had a lot to say about the danger of the internet
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes exactly Bruce
Bleu Oleander: there are many stories about gurus that have moral flaws ... does that impact how we feel about their messages?
Bruce Mowbray: Good point, Bleu.
Aphrodite Macbain: excellent question Bleu
Bleu Oleander: can we separate?
Bleu Oleander: message from the person?
Aphrodite Macbain: I can value Steve Jobs without idolizing him however, like thousands did
Bleu Oleander: should we?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes I think so
Aphrodite Macbain: they swallowed his message whole
Bleu Oleander: well people idolized John Lennon when he died ... I was in NYC at the time ... amazing memories
Aphrodite Macbain: and refuse to buy anything but an Apple products
Catrinamonblue Resident: I happen to like apple products but I don't idolize Steve jobs
Aphrodite Macbain: I think Lennon had more of what I would call a moral compass
Catrinamonblue Resident: I just happen to think they are a good product
Bleu Oleander: many apple products are fine and one could even argue pretty nice ... do I not buy one because of Steve Jobs the man and how he lived his life?
Aphrodite Macbain: that's my point Cat. Why do you think they are better than a cheaper product- like an android?
Bleu Oleander: really Aph?
Catrinamonblue Resident: are you sure they idolize him just because they only buy apple products?
Catrinamonblue Resident: I didn't say they were better
Aphrodite Macbain: why do they idolize him then?
Bleu Oleander: it's a good question
Catrinamonblue Resident: just that I like them
Bleu Oleander: me too :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Just like when buying any product, be it a car or a phone, everybody has their own preference. I know people who will only buy honda cars....
Catrinamonblue Resident: it doesn't mean they idolize the company
Bleu Oleander: brand loyalty
Bleu Oleander: status
Catrinamonblue Resident: maybe a bit....
Bleu Oleander: money
Bleu Oleander: all enter into it
Bleu Oleander: persuasion
Catrinamonblue Resident: but also just personal preference
Catrinamonblue Resident: I like the colour green
Bleu Oleander: and where do we get that?
Aphrodite Macbain: No I am using the idolizing of Steve Jobs as an example of people forming opinions about things that cannot have much substance.
Aphrodite Macbain: we are fed so much advertising that makes us want to consume things
Bleu Oleander: how do our preferences develop?
Aphrodite Macbain: that's what I'm wondering about Blue
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps out of what brings us pleasure - or joy - and what is not painful for us....
Bleu Oleander: our peers, our tribes, our country, etc all influence our preferences ... media, advertising, pr
Catrinamonblue Resident: sometimes you just get used to one thing and don't want to go through the learning curve of a different thing
Bleu Oleander: familiarity
Bleu Oleander: big one
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Bruce Mowbray: hmmm, so preference becomes habit....
Bleu Oleander: its learned for sure
Bruce Mowbray: but, as with "beliefs," preferences can and do change.
Aphrodite Macbain: I feel that media hype, political spins, information we absorb unconsciously...also feeds our belief system
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bleu Oleander: and yes, we can change
Catrinamonblue Resident: true... to the degree we allow it
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: so the question is how do we catch this before it impregnates our belief system
Catrinamonblue Resident: awareness of who we are
Bleu Oleander: well much of it is unconscious
Catrinamonblue Resident: perhaps?
Bleu Oleander: we can't know all the influences on us
Aphrodite Macbain: Ken suggests: "One method of counteracting mind-killing is to use a set of four questions originally developed by Byron Katie: • Is this true? • How do I know it is true? • How do I feel when I believe this? • Who would I be if I let this go?"
Bleu Oleander: there have been studies that show just asking someone their phone number primes them to spend a higher amount on something ... primes them with a big number
Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose it is about being mindful and paying attention to the information being fed us
Aphrodite Macbain: interesting Bleu
Aphrodite Macbain: how odd
Bleu Oleander: or putting a picture of a $ in the room
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps our beliefs come out of "feeling" as much (or more?) than they come out of knowing.... So, another question might be, "What feelings make me believe this is true?"
Bleu Oleander: our mind takes it in and we don't consciously know it
Aphrodite Macbain: sometimes I am too lazy to question --I want things to be simple
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bleu Oleander: sure emotions do affect our decisions on what is true
Bleu Oleander: what "feels" true
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: and what fuels that feeling?
Bruce Mowbray: Chop wood; carry water.
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: past experience and memories and genetics
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: It bypasses our cerebral cortex and goes straight to feelings
Bleu Oleander: so what's the best approach?
Bleu Oleander: dice?
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: coin toss?
Aphrodite Macbain: I sometimes find myself trying to explain to someone why I believe certain things and can't find any logical justification...
Catrinamonblue Resident: does there need to be a logical justification?
Bleu Oleander: so why do you believe them?
Aphrodite Macbain: Critical thinking Bleu
Bruce Mowbray: I think meditation is called "practice" for good reasons --- we "practice" witnessing ourselves going in and out of stuck places. . . stuck feeling, and stuck preferences, for example.
Aphrodite Macbain: that's the big question Bleu. Why do I believe them?
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bleu Oleander: why do we believe things we have no evidence for?  
Catrinamonblue   Resident: why do you need to know?
Catrinamonblue Resident: can it just be what it is?
Aphrodite Macbain: Not always Cat
Aphrodite Macbain: Especially if you plan to vote... or engage in the world
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully to hear why is can't just be what it is.
Catrinamonblue Resident: I try to stay away from politics
Catrinamonblue Resident: it hurts my head too much :_p
Aphrodite Macbain: aww
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bruce Mowbray: heh heh.
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)

Aphrodite Macbain: Hmmm I'm not comfortable with that Cat. I feel a need to make meaning out of life
Bruce Mowbray: If Trump gets in office, I'll be moving to Canada before he's inaugurated, trust me on that.
Catrinamonblue Resident: lol :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: if Harper gets in again here you might be better off there ;)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bleu Oleander: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: You may just bump into some of our idiotic politicians like Stephen Harper, Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Yikes!
Aphrodite Macbain: snap Cat
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Catrinamonblue Resident: ok, I do have a political view but really :)
Bleu Oleander: most politicians are a sorry lot
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Bruce Mowbray: I'm a Bernie fan myself.
Catrinamonblue Resident: it's not the be all and end all of who I am
Aphrodite Macbain: We are all political beings however
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: part of society
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bruce Mowbray ponders whether hermits are political beings.
Bleu Oleander: how we live together
Bleu Oleander: can't all be hermits
Aphrodite Macbain: and what we say and do has repercussions
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: but we can't live in fear of those repercussions
Catrinamonblue Resident: make a choice and move on :)
Aphrodite Macbain: What you tell your kids, your friends, and associates- has repercussions
Bleu Oleander: we could consider them tho
Catrinamonblue Resident: what will be will be :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: oh yes consider them
Catrinamonblue Resident: but don't get lost in them
Aphrodite Macbain: not fear, just awareness that what we do has an affect on others
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes we all bump into each other all the time :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Catrinamonblue Resident: bounce :)
Aphrodite Macbain: reactive
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Boink
Catrinamonblue Resident: lol :)
Bleu Oleander: no pushing!
Catrinamonblue Resident: I guess I just meant don't get lost in the process :)
Aphrodite Macbain: He he It says so at the top of our screen. :-)
Bleu Oleander: right :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Getting lost is what I hope to avoid. Mindless action. Mindless speaking. I do it all the time without thinking.
Catrinamonblue Resident: lol that's me to a t :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: I put my foot in my mouth more often than not :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: but I've learned to just accept that part of myself :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I would far prefer to be aware of what I am saying and feel confident that I'm not just regurgitating someone else's garbage.
Catrinamonblue Resident: those who love me know and understand :)
Bruce Mowbray: Maybe you could ask yourself, "Who said that, anyway?!!"
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes Bruce- "consider the source"
Bruce Mowbray: he he.
Catrinamonblue Resident: good question Bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: I have so many parts of myself saying different things, it's hard to keep track of who said what - or why.
Catrinamonblue Resident: lol yup :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yikes!
Aphrodite Macbain: If Steve Jobs claims something, why was he saying it? Because he wanted a better world or because he wanted to become a bigger billionaire?
Bleu Oleander: we've probably all heard ourselves saying something like our parents said
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: oh yes :)
Aphrodite Macbain: perfect example
Bruce Mowbray: One could ask the same question of Ray Kurzweil.
Aphrodite Macbain: yes!
Bruce Mowbray: whom I have come to admire greatly.
Bruce Mowbray: especially after seeing the movie "Transcendent Man."
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Bruce Mowbray: :))
Aphrodite Macbain: I plan to watch that soon Bruce.
Bruce Mowbray: Great, please let me know what you think of it.
Bruce Mowbray: also, "Examined Life...." That's a really good one, too.
Aphrodite Macbain: What does he transcend?
Bruce Mowbray: He is trying to transcend death, I think.
Aphrodite Macbain: biology?
Bruce Mowbray: yep.
Bleu Oleander: biology and technology
Bruce Mowbray: yeppers to both.
Bleu Oleander: robots are coming too
Aphrodite Macbain: I have finished Do Androids dream of electric sheep
Bleu Oleander: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: a very dystopic world he describes
Bleu Oleander: was that good?
Aphrodite Macbain: amazing
Aphrodite Macbain: he was ahead of his time
Bleu Oleander: we just had a salon on that topic ... amazing things about to happen
Bleu Oleander: hang on

Aphrodite Macbain: all animals and plants are dead
Aphrodite Macbain: oh? cool
Bleu Oleander: lots will be out of work
Aphrodite Macbain: no kidding
Bleu Oleander: but companies need consumers
Aphrodite Macbain: we assume that work is what makes the world go round
Bleu Oleander: big problems
Bleu Oleander: well kids on that happy note...
Aphrodite Macbain: what did they decide was the solution?
Bleu Oleander: have a meeting
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: kk
Bleu Oleander: no solutions yet
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Bleu.
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks for your input Bleu
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Bleu :)
Bleu Oleander: thanks Aph for a provocative question
Bruce Mowbray: You've done a fine job with this pavilion, btw.
Aphrodite Macbain: yw. Thank Ken McLeod :-)
Bleu Oleander: do you prefer round or square?
Bruce Mowbray: and Byron Katie.
Aphrodite Macbain: I like both
Bruce Mowbray: whole lineage!
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, good people.
Bleu Oleander: ok c u all later
Aphrodite Macbain: I also like the square
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Bruce :)
Aphrodite Macbain: waves
Bleu Oleander: byeee
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Bruce
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Aph :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Well- it's time for lunch
Catrinamonblue Resident: great meeting today :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Cat
Catrinamonblue Resident: thanks for hosting :)
Aphrodite Macbain: glad u could make it
Catrinamonblue Resident: me too :)