2015.12.08 13:00 - GEB, "An Eternal Golden Braid'

The guardian responsible for this session was Bruce Mowbray.

 

[12:59] Riddle Sideways is online.

[13:00] Bruce: Hi, Riddle.

[13:00] Riddle Sideways: Hi bRuce

[13:00] Riddle Sideways: ok, need to stop that

[13:01] Bruce: :)

[13:01] Bruce: np.

[13:01] Riddle Sideways: the late shift

[13:01] Bruce: yeah, been there, done that late shift.

[13:01] Bruce: Have you read Douglas Hofstadter's books?

[13:01] Bruce: Godel Escher Bach, in particular?

[13:01] Riddle Sideways: one

[13:01] Riddle Sideways: yep that one

[13:02] Riddle Sideways: years and years ago

[13:02] Bruce: Yes, published in the late 70's.

[13:02] Bruce: 79, I think it was.

[13:02] Bruce: or maybe earlier.

[13:02] Riddle Sideways: is that what you are reading now?

[13:02] Bruce: You might remember that H. demonstrates something he calls the "F-Plot"

[13:02] Bruce: which we would know to be a fractal,

[13:03] Bruce: but Mandelbrot had not coined that word, yet, when H's book was published.

[13:03] Riddle Sideways: oh, had not made that connection

[13:03] Bruce: Just checked:  copyrighted in 1979.

[13:03] Bruce: Yes.

[13:04] Bruce: That sort of dates both H and Mandelbrot, I think.

[13:04] Riddle Sideways: interesting

[13:04] Bruce: They were both coming up with similar ideas of recursion in graphics about the same time.

[13:04] Bruce: anyway, I am now taking a course from MIT on H's book.

[13:05] Bruce: I will find the link...

[13:05] Bruce: just a sec, please.

[13:05] Bruce: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWZ2Bz0tS-s

[13:06] Riddle Sideways: ty

[13:06] Bruce: There are six or seven complete lectures, and I've downloaded/saved all of them, but have watched only one so far.

[13:06] Riddle Sideways: ok, will not watch the hour lecture right now.

[13:07] Bruce: fingers still cold, here (and old, too).

[13:07] Riddle Sideways: :)

[13:08] Bruce: All six of the lectures are on YouTube - and it's fun to revisit that material again...

[13:08] Riddle Sideways: assumed that was what was meant

[13:08] Bruce: I've read the book at least four times,

[13:08] Bruce: plus his later books.

[13:09] Bruce: Each time I read it, I use a different color of ink to do under-linings.

[13:09] Riddle Sideways: nice

[13:09] Bruce: :)

[13:09] Bruce: So, what's up with you today, Riddle?

[13:10] Riddle Sideways: one last question on that

[13:10] Bruce: sure, fire away.

[13:10] Riddle Sideways: can you remember the what and why of underlines years before?

[13:10] Bruce: Mostly, yes - because I often also make annotations in the margins beside those under-linings.

[13:11] Riddle Sideways: ah

[13:11] Bruce: :)

[13:11] Bruce: I love that book for its structure....

[13:11] Bruce: The book itself is written like a Bach fugue...

[13:11] Bruce: and an Escher drawing.

[13:12] Bruce: thematic recursion, etc.

[13:12] Bruce: I remember back in 1979 or 80 that I was so taken with fractal graphics that I designed my own Christmas cards with one ... from a program I'd written myself (NOT based on the Mandlebrot set.)

 

[13:12] PaB Bell: 90 second pause. Please be silent in mindfulness.

 

[13:12] Riddle Sideways: ok, now on to ...  Did you get Windows 10 working?

[13:13] Bruce: I was finally able to figure out Windows 8 --

[13:13] Bruce: W 8 was the OEM on a laptop that I gave to a friend.

[13:14] Bruce: Neither he nor I have upgraded to W 10, though.

[13:14] Riddle Sideways: ok

[13:14] Bruce: I'm waiting for Mickysoft to work out the W 10 bugs before I download it.

[13:14] Bruce: Meanwhile, I'm quite happy with W 7.

[13:14] Bruce: Do you have W 10?

[13:15] Riddle Sideways: am trying to install onto laptop now

[13:15] Bruce: Ahhh!

[13:15] Riddle Sideways: about to give up

[13:15] Bruce: Please let me know how that turns out.

[13:15] Riddle Sideways: it stops and gives uninterruptable messages

[13:16] Bruce: One reason I don't want to install 10 yet is that I hear it loads a WHOLE LOT of programs at Startup - that I most likely would not want or use.

[13:16] Bruce: Oh dear.

[13:16] Bruce: Yikes!

[13:16] Riddle Sideways: usually has said "Something Happened"

[13:16] Bruce: I hope you're able to return to using your previous version....

[13:17] Bruce: (I mean, if you can't get W 10 to work right).

[13:17] Riddle Sideways: Googling on the message comes up with lists of what it would mean

[13:17] Bruce: Oh my.

[13:17] Bruce: You mean that the messages themselves are not user-friendly?

[13:18] Riddle Sideways: imagine M$ doing that

[13:18] Bruce: Qt has installed W 10, if I remember rightly. and here he comes now.

[13:18] Bruce just tried to imgine M$ making its programs user-friendly.

[13:18] Bruce: Heya, Qt.

[13:19] Qt Core: Hi Bruce, Riddle

[13:19] Riddle Sideways: hiya QT

[13:19] Bruce: You have Windows 10 installed, right, Qt?

[13:19] Qt Core: yes

[13:19] Bruce: kk, well. Riddle is currently installing it and says he's having some issues.

[13:19] Riddle Sideways: laptop install is not going well

[13:20] Riddle Sideways: on the 4th issue now

[13:20] Bruce listens.

[13:20] Riddle Sideways: other 3 took all morning

[13:20] Qt Core: it should have checked if the pc would be compatible

[13:21] Riddle Sideways: it did and got past that (winzip had to be uninstalled)

[13:21] Qt Core: my upgrade was one of the few painless thing i ever did with a pc

[13:21] Riddle Sideways: am on the second "something happened" screen now

[13:21] Bruce: One of my concerns about W 10 is that it might not run some of my older software programs...

[13:22] Riddle Sideways: good for you

[13:22] Bruce: Sorry to hear you're having so much trouble with it, Riddle.

[13:22] Qt Core: it would have to be something really old, Bruce

[13:22] Bruce makes note NOT to install W 10 for a few more months.

[13:22] Bruce: How about my own Visual Basic programs from 1999?

[13:22] Qt Core: is the laptop online so W10 can get all the driver/updates it need ?

[13:23] Bruce: W 7 has no problem with them.

[13:23] Bruce listens.

[13:23] Riddle Sideways: yes, but one suggestion is to take it offline

[13:23] Bruce: hmmmm.

[13:23] Qt Core: running them should not be an issue, maybe the Visual Basic ide from 1999 would be problematic

[13:24] Bruce: kk, but more important is Riddle's current attempt to install....

[13:24] Riddle Sideways: no, was just chatting

[13:24] Bruce: :)

[13:24] Qt Core: is it only saying there is a  problem or something more useful too

[13:24] Riddle Sideways: ready for new subject

[13:25] Bruce: Well, I suppose we could always talk about America's fascist candidate for President.

[13:25] Bruce: :(

[13:25] Riddle Sideways: oh dear that one is soooooo depressing

[13:25] Bruce: I was happy to see that folks are FINALLY beginning to use the term "fascist" when they talk about Trump.

[13:25] Qt Core: how many guesses have i to find him and his hairs ?

[13:25] Bruce: Yes, depressing indeed.

[13:26] Bruce: Imagine those poor guys running against him in the Republican Party, though. THEY are probably really depressed!

[13:26] Riddle Sideways: his policy would be to stop ALL Muslims from entering the US

[13:26] Qt Core: and how you would identify one ?

[13:26] Bruce: Yes, including Muslim members of the military - members currently stationed overseas.

[13:27] Bruce: There are several indicators ...

[13:27] Riddle Sideways: hi dRuth

[13:27] Bruce: Heya, druth!

[13:27] Qt Core: hi druth

[13:27] druth Vlodovic: hi riddle, qt, bruce

[13:28] druth Vlodovic: what are we identifying?

[13:28] Bruce: I'm hoping that the blow-back from yesterday's comments about Muslims will FINALLY get severe enough that he'll get out of the race.

[13:28] Bruce: But I fear he will just move on and start his own party - which would, in effect, destroy the Republican Party and ensure a Hillary victory.

[13:29] Bruce: We were trying to identify "Muslims" when they try to enter the US from abroad.

[13:29] Bruce: How would you prove that, in other words?

[13:29] Qt Core: or as an outsider against that bad thing that parties are win even with a larger margin...

[13:29] druth Vlodovic: lol, if you are talking the final Trump in the 'merica it is likely to get him more votes, which is why the founding fathers tried to limit the vote

[13:30] Bruce: Hmmmm.

 

[13:30] PaB Bell: 90 second pause. Please be silent in mindfulness.

 

[13:30] druth Vlodovic: mind you, starting a three party system in the US might be a good idea, wait until Canada has figured out how to do the switch, we are still pretty buggy on it

[13:31] Bruce: I'm now pondering that Bernie Sanders is taking votes from Hillary on the left, and Trump is taking votes from the Republicans on the right....

[13:31] Riddle Sideways: The Trump wants only his rich white male Christians to have the vote

[13:32] Bruce: Nods, agrees totally with Riddle.

[13:32] Bruce: (depressing, indeed).

[13:32] druth Vlodovic: the original plan then :-/

[13:32] Riddle Sideways: yes

[13:32] Bruce: But the rich white Republicans already control Congress....

[13:32] Qt Core: sure about the Christian part ?

[13:32] Bruce: Trump is a Presbyterian, actually.

[13:32] Qt Core: or only rich is enough

[13:33] Bruce: "All the government that money can buy!"

[13:33] druth Vlodovic: rich non-xtian would be insulting

[13:33] Bruce: "All the government that money can bribe" might be more like it.

[13:34] druth Vlodovic: money and contacts

[13:34] druth Vlodovic: and game playing ability

[13:34] Bruce: I never understood the difference between oligarchies and plutocracies....

[13:35] Qt Core: old money against just money

[13:35] Bruce: Ahhhh.

[13:35] Bruce: So oligarchies are "old money"

[13:35] Qt Core: yes, in the beginning just rich, then they don't want anyone else becoming rich

[13:36] Bruce: Before Qt and druth arrived, Riddle and I were talking about GODEL ESCHER BACH by Richard Hofstadter..

[13:36] Bruce: Have either of you read it?

[13:36] Qt Core: interesting reading, sometimes headache inducing

[13:36] druth Vlodovic: not yet

[13:36] Bruce: I mentioned that I am currently taking an online course on that book.

[13:36] Bruce: Just a sec...

[13:37] Qt Core: read it a few years ago, loved it, i probably need to reread it... many times

[13:37] Bruce: First of the six lectures:

[13:37] Bruce: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWZ2Bz0tS-s

[13:37] Bruce: Yes, rereading it is a delight, though.

[13:37] Bruce: So, I am now rereading it for the sixth time!

[13:37] druth Vlodovic: Godel is a political analyst or something isn't he?

[13:38] Bruce: a mathematician.

[13:38] Bruce: actually starved himself to death...

[13:38] Bruce: He came up with the "Incompleteness Theorem."

[13:38] druth Vlodovic: philosophy, bulimia, or bad economics?

[13:38] Bruce: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Gödel

[13:39] Qt Core: paranoia if i remember it right

[13:39] Bruce: Yes, paranoia... and general mental illness.

[13:39] Bruce: Perhaps he wanted the world to be "complete" and couldn't tolerate his own incompleteness.

[13:41] Bruce: "Late in 1977, Godel's wife was hospitalized for six months and could no longer prepare her husband's food. In her absence, he refused to eat, eventually starving to death.  He weighed 65 pounds (approximately 30 kg) when he died. His death certificate reported that he died of "malnutrition and inanition caused by personality disturbance" in Princeton Hospital on January 14, 1978."

[13:41] druth Vlodovic: the tyrany of the mind

[13:41] Bruce: (that was from the Wikipedia... about him and his wife).

[13:42] druth Vlodovic: god, how awful to get out of hospital to that

[13:42] Bruce nods, agrees.

[13:42] Bruce: Reminds me a bit of "A Beautiful Mind"

[13:43] Bruce: but that was schizophrenia.

[13:43] Bruce: (and a different mathematician).

 

[13:43] PaB Bell: 90 second pause. Please be silent in mindfulness.

 

[13:45] Bruce: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Beautiful_Mind_(book)

[13:45] Bruce: Both Nash and Godel were at Princeton, though.

[13:45] Bruce: Maybe it was the water there that did them in.

[13:46] Riddle Sideways: hmmm, some other PaBers are there

[13:46] Bruce: Yes, Pema for one.

[13:46] Bruce: Heya, Aph.

[13:46] Riddle Sideways: Adams was?

[13:47] Qt Core: is't madness needed for some discovery/invention ?

[13:47] Riddle Sideways: high Aph

[13:47] Qt Core: Hi Aph

[13:47] Bruce: on't know about Adams, just Pema.

[13:47] Aph: High

[13:47] Bruce: How ya doing, Aph?

[13:47] Bruce: High!!?

[13:47] Aph: ok I guess. Almost finished my paper

[13:47] Riddle Sideways: trouble landing :)

[13:47] Riddle Sideways: good

[13:47] Bruce: Yayyy!

[13:48] Bruce: I think about your paper every day, Aph.

[13:48] Bruce: (Aph is writing a paper on artificial intelligence, you know.)

[13:48] Aph: you do? I hope you think good thoughts

[13:48] druth Vlodovic: I tried googling images for mental illness and all I got was paintings and drug use on the first page

[13:48] Bruce: Just today I was listening to a talk about "human swarming" and I thought of Aph writing her paper.

[13:48] Riddle Sideways: so, now would not be a good time to give you more material

[13:48] Aph: AI AND second life!

[13:48] Qt Core: just passed in front of tv, it was showing one of my fav movies... the Bicentennial Man, speaking about AI...

[13:49] Bruce: Yes, AI and Second Life, thanks for that clarification.

[13:49] Bruce: OH! Bicentennial Man with Robin Williams.

[13:49] Bruce: I LOVED that one.

[13:49] druth Vlodovic: must be hard to write a paper on AI, I prefer a word processor myself

[13:49] Aph: It was hard to stop writing about AI. There is so much to talk about :-)

[13:49] Aph: druth :/

[13:49] Riddle Sideways: o druth

[13:49] Bruce: Yes, a field that's growing larger by the minute.

[13:50] Bruce: by*

[13:50] Aph: nods.

[13:50] Aph: I have too many fottnotes!

[13:50] druth Vlodovic: have you visited any wild 'bot preserves?

[13:50] Aph: and footnotes

[13:50] Aph: In SL?

[13:50] Bruce: Also, before you arrived, Aph, we'd been talking about Douglas Hofstadter's GODEL ESCHER BACH - and H- taught AI (computer science) at the University of Indiana.

[13:51] Aph: Do they keep them in pens?

[13:51] Riddle Sideways: we visited Hal last week

[13:51] Bruce listens.

[13:51] Aph: say more Bruce?

[13:51] druth Vlodovic: how is he?

[13:51] Bruce: Hal seemed to me a bit like a glorified "Eliza" program (NOT our Eliza, but the other one.)

[13:52] Bruce: Just a sec, Aph....

[13:52] Aph: Hal BOt?

[13:52] Bruce: I will give you a link...

[13:52] Aph: yes. He wasn't all that Intelligent...

[13:52] Aph: last week

[13:52] Bruce: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel,_Escher,_Bach

[13:52] Aph: thanks

[13:52] Bruce: yw.

[13:53] Bruce: That's the book by Hofstadter that we were discussing earlier.

[13:53] Bruce: an AMAZING book, actually.

[13:53] druth Vlodovic: in the old BBS days they had a few AI help programs

[13:53] Aph: Looks interesting

[13:53] Aph: an interesting mix of creative people

[13:53] druth Vlodovic: how smart they were was dependant on how often they were used

[13:54] Bruce: The book is written in the form of a recursive Bach fugue.

[13:54] Bruce: VERY clever, indeed.

[13:54] Aph: Is it easy to read it like that?

[13:55] Bruce: http://imslp.org/wiki/Das_wohltemper...ann_Sebastian)

[13:56] Bruce: GEB is not an "easy" book, but it is delightfully written...

[13:56] Bruce: with mind-bending ideas...

[13:56] Qt Core: at times it feels like a honey tornado, sticky, uncontrollable and sweet!

[13:56] Aph: I remember it being discussed when it first came out ...

[13:57] Aph: lol Qt- nice metaphor

[13:57] Bruce: http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/...2Epre_cmaj.ogg

[13:58] Aph: what's that?

[13:58] Bruce: GEB is a sort of fractalish in its structure.

[13:59] Bruce: That is recorded music from Bach's Well Tempered Clavier.

[13:59] Bruce: so you can listen to it online.

[13:59] Aph: nice

[13:59] Aph: thanks!

[13:59] Qt Core: speaking of music and "strings," something central in that book did any of you ever watched music videos in smalin youtube channel : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOWi...notation_78634

[13:59] Qt Core: i love that idea

[14:00] Bruce: YES!  I watched that just last night!  Isn't it amazing!?

 

[14:00] PaB Bell: 90 second pause. Please be silent in mindfulness.

 

[14:00] Aph: love the images with the music

[14:01] Qt Core: i often see/feel a bouncing thing in my mind when listening to music (and doing acrobatics too)

[14:01] Riddle Sideways: ok am now stuck watching YouTube (again)

[14:02] Bruce: ha ha!

[14:02] Aph: I won't be able to do my session on Monday beginning in January- my painting class is scheduled then. Any suggestions on another day? Friday at 1?

[14:02] Bruce: Some of the stuff up there is REALLY good, though.

[14:02] Qt Core: reading its web-site he spend many, many hours for each piece

[14:03] Bruce: Friday would be fine with me, Aph.

[14:03] Bruce: Just neither Wednesday or Thursday...

[14:03] Qt Core: isn't that Yaku's

[14:03] Aph: I'll have to check the calendar

[14:03] Bruce: Wednesday is O.F. and Thursday is Seth's class plus Eliza's session.

[14:03] Bruce nods.

[14:03] Bruce: I need to run now.

[14:03] Aph: We have a new calendar now with the Theatre schedule

[14:03] Bruce: Be well, good people.

[14:04] Aph: I think Bleu posted it upstairs

[14:04] Aph: Bye Bruce

[14:04] Qt Core: speaking about paintings, today a saw a Rubens' and a dozen Giotto's (the real things, not copies)

[14:04] Qt Core: bye Bruce

[14:04] Aph: wow