2015.12.29 13:00 - Of Monoliths and Monster Storms

 The guargian responsible for this session was Bruce Mowbray.

 

[13:01] Bruce: Heya, druth!

[13:01] druth Vlodovic: hey bruce

[13:01] druth Vlodovic: anything new?

[13:02] Bruce: uhhhh.  just a sec... Gotta get my seat right...

[13:02] PaB Listener Master whispers: The session has not yet been claimed by a Guardian.

[13:02] Bruce: there!

[13:02] Qt Core is online.

[13:02] Bruce: Only two things "new" here -

[13:02] Bruce: Got a new phone service installed today,

[13:03] Bruce: and building an HO gauge model train in the living room.

[13:03] Bruce: How 'bout you?

[13:03] druth Vlodovic: another ceiling job?

[13:03] druth Vlodovic: hi qt

[13:03] Bruce: Hi, Qt.

[13:03] Qt Core: HiDruth, Bruce

[13:03] druth Vlodovic: midwinter arrived last night

[13:03] Bruce: Yes, it's the same "ceiling job," actually.

[13:03] Bruce: I'm about 3/4 done with it now.

[13:04] Bruce: ouch!

[13:04] Bruce: You got the storm?

[13:04] druth Vlodovic: grass yesterday, a foot and a half this morning

[13:05] druth Vlodovic: and a reminder that all-season tires aren't

[13:05] Bruce: :)

[13:06] Bruce: Hope you didn't have an "incident" on the roads with all that snow. . .  and your "all-season tires."

[13:06] druth Vlodovic: got stuck once

[13:06] druth Vlodovic: brb door

[13:06] Bruce: oh dear.

[13:06] Qt Core: i just read about the Svalbard islands, 20 degree (C) over average temps... they are over the average July temps!

[13:06] Bruce wonders if Qt has ever seen 18 inches of snow in Milan.

[13:07] Qt Core: yes, in 1985

[13:07] Bruce looks up Svalbard Islands.

[13:08] Qt Core: around here let’s say that it starst to be a lot of snow at 10

[13:08] Bruce: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svalbard

[13:08] Bruce nods.  My typist was raised in northern Iowa, so every winter he walked a mile to school when there was a foot of snow on the ground.

[13:09] Bruce: and now he thinks all southern Ohio folks are wusses when it comes to snows and winters.

[13:10] druth Vlodovic: bk

[13:10] Bruce: We have yet to see our first inch of snow here this winter....

[13:10] Bruce: All the big storms are going north (or south) of us, fortunately.

[13:11] Bruce: There have been over 40 people killed in the past three days in the US - from tornadoes and flooding.

[13:11] druth Vlodovic: the weather seems to be getting less predictable

[13:11] Qt Core: I’d like to see at least rain here, a couple months since it happened, we are having big pollution issues

[13:11] Bruce: oh dear.

[13:12] Bruce: So, it seems we're heading toward the extremes....

[13:12] Bruce: either too wet or too dry, either too cold or too hot.

[13:12] Qt Core: We are at the point that car use is prohibited from 10am to 4 pm, yesterday, today and tomorrow

[13:12] Bruce: Yes, I saw that in the news, qt.  Milan and Beijing, both.

[13:13] Bruce: I meant to ask you about that.

[13:13] druth Vlodovic: in Mexico city when I was there they did it by the license plate number, odds on certain days and evens on other days

[13:13] Bruce nods.

[13:13] Qt Core: Rome is doing that too

[13:13] Bruce: Wow.

[13:14] Qt Core: we did that sometimes too here

[13:14] druth Vlodovic: I was reading an article about Miami having flooding issues

[13:14] Bruce: Seems to me that would be a good argument for mass public transportation.

[13:14] druth Vlodovic: ordered by the court to pay $1.6 billion over a few years upgrading a sewage system that will just be overwhelmed in turn

[13:14] Bruce: because of rising sea levels?

[13:15] druth Vlodovic: with half that money they could get composting toilets for every resident and curbside pickup for the waste

[13:15] druth Vlodovic: get rid of the sewer system altogether

[13:15] Bruce nods.  Sounds like a plan.

 

[13:15] Bell

 

[13:15] druth Vlodovic: higher high water levels

[13:15] Qt Core: these days validity of public transport ticket was prolonged from the usual 75 minutes to full day

[13:16] druth Vlodovic: full day bus passes are really nice

[13:16] Bruce nods.

[13:16] Qt Core: that ticket gives access to bus/trolleys/subway

[13:17] Bruce: (that’s the same way public transportation works in New York -- one ticket for all).

[13:17] druth Vlodovic: especially good for tourists and local business

[13:17] Qt Core: I could get in Milan city center and wander all day for 3.1 euros (3,39 dollars)

[13:17] druth Vlodovic: sometimes i go to big box stores just because of parking

[13:17] Bruce nods --- amazing.

[13:18] Bruce: I think some homeless folks use mass transport just to stay out of the cold and rain.

[13:18] druth Vlodovic: we need to rethink the form of infrastructure

[13:18] Bruce: riding the lines from one end to the other all day and night.

[13:18] Qt Core: but they'll be back to usual 75 minutes in a few days

[13:19] Qt Core: i think full day pass are af 7/8 euros, so 7.7/6.8 dollars

[13:19] Bruce: Being a country lad myself, I never cease to be amazed by how great cities "work" --- able to have enough water, food, toilet paper, etc etc for everyone...

[13:20] Bruce: To me, the most amazing thing about New York is that it works at all...

[13:20] druth Vlodovic: but very delicate

[13:20] Bruce: especially after an event like 9/11 or Hurricane Sandy.

[13:20] Bruce: in only a few days, all essential services seem to be up and running again.

[13:21] Bruce: (like an anthill.)

[13:21] druth Vlodovic: lol

[13:21] druth Vlodovic: well, you say "wow they recovered quickly!" but really

[13:21] druth Vlodovic: what else would they do?

[13:21] Bruce: It's the principle of "emergence" that seems to be at work in both anthills and cities.

[13:22] druth Vlodovic: guy at work tried to kill himself by using car fumes, then made them let him return to work after a week, instead of what the doctor wanted

[13:22] Bruce ponders those flooded subway tunnels, power outages in high-rise buildings, and the like.

[13:22] druth Vlodovic: seriously, what else would he do?

[13:22] Qt Core: it may sounds rude, but both 9/11 and Sandy not so much of the big thing that New York is

[13:22] Bruce: Hmmmm.

[13:23] druth Vlodovic: the ice storm way back stopped Ottawa, until it stopped raining ice, then it was back to business

[13:23] Bruce: Was his work causing him to feel suicidal, perhaps?

[13:23] druth Vlodovic: no, marriage breakup

[13:23] Bruce: ahhh.  Been there. Done that.... (felt suicidal, I mean.)

[13:24] Bruce: after marriage breakup.

[13:24] druth Vlodovic: I got pills for it, but then found out that it wasn't pills that caused the problem, so there was a better solution

[13:25] Bruce: --- phone ringing... brb.

[13:25] Bruce: np.  [back]

[13:25] druth Vlodovic: I wonder how many people don't feel suicidal much of the time

[13:26] druth Vlodovic: It can be surprising how common it is when you get to talking to people

[13:26] Bruce: Yes, there is indeed a better solution than either suicide or pills.... but the pills can help one get through the worst of it until one can find that better solution.

[13:26] Qt Core: (and then one would wonder how truly suicidal are those who say they are)

[13:26] Bruce: I'm guessing you're right about that, druth.

[13:27] Bruce: As I get older, my thoughts on the subject have done a 180 turn...

[13:27] druth Vlodovic: they say that coming out of depression is dangerous because you might get your energy back before your desire to live

[13:27] Bruce: and after I was hospitalized for 11 days with a life-threatening condition...

[13:27] druth Vlodovic: oh?

[13:27] Bruce: oh yes.

[13:28] Bruce: I feel firmly that suicide is everyone’s right --- regardless of what the state’s laws might say about it.

[13:28] Bruce: I also feel that it is unethical to keep reviving someone... especially if that person has indicated a desire to die in order to be rid of pain.

[13:28] Bruce: (like my prisoner friend Mike.)

[13:29] Bruce: He is dying of Hodgkin’s Lymphoma...

[13:29] Bruce: Mike keeps "dying" --- and they keep reviving him, but refuse to give him any pain meds.

[13:29] Bruce: so he just suffers and waits.... BARBARIC!

[13:29] druth Vlodovic: "he might get addicted" or some such nonsense I bet

[13:30] druth Vlodovic: there is an addiction to human pain built into abrahamic religion and it's associated societies

[13:30] Bruce: Oh yeah - as if an addiction would be worse than dying of painful terminal cancer.

[13:30] Bruce: Good point, druth.

[13:30] Bruce: We have, unfortunately, a lot of those old taboos hanging on in our institutions.

[13:31] druth Vlodovic: in Canada having Trudeau in power ought to help the debate

[13:31] Qt Core: keep telling the lower classes we are here to suffer and redeem ourselves...

[13:32] Bruce: Seems the whole Western mindset is infected with a "monolithic" authority structure...

[13:32] druth Vlodovic: if you leech pleasure out of life, and increase pain, then people want to die, making raising armies and starting wars easier, imho

 

[13:32] Bell

 

[13:33] Bruce: I mean, "belief" in the "truth" of hierarchies - whether in class structure, religious authority, governmental authority, or whatever.

[13:34] PaB Bell: Thank you. Please continue to be mindful.

[13:34] Bruce: Seems to me that folks are encouraged to seek "answers" and "solutions" by going to some “higher authority” - rather than to their own wisdom.

[13:34] druth Vlodovic: my fav simile is the game of risk, to win you use power to aquire power, and it snowballs

[13:35] druth Vlodovic: but it helps that the most effective armies are hierarchical

[13:35] Bruce ponders whether that might also work with freedom (instead of power)... using freedom to gain more freedom....

[13:35] druth Vlodovic: that is why atheists, hippies gays etc are so dangerous to authority

[13:36] Bruce nods, agrees.

[13:36] druth Vlodovic: claim your freedom and they lose their hold on you

[13:36] Bruce: yeppers.

[13:36] Bruce: Being a hermit has a similar effect.

[13:36] druth Vlodovic: if nobody listened to Hitler he would have been regarded as a harmless nutcase

[13:36] Bruce nods.

[13:37] druth Vlodovic: it was only the obedience that made him dangerous

[13:37] Bruce: In Hitler's case, I think one could say the people were trying to escape from freedom. (c.f., Erich Fromm’s book).  [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_from_Freedom ]

[13:37] Qt Core: don’t know, maybe it would just be someone else name we would despise today

[13:37] druth Vlodovic: freedom and responsibility are the same coin

[13:37] Bruce: Indeed they are, druth - flipsides of the same coin.

[13:37] druth Vlodovic: not the name, it was the structure that was important

[13:38] Bruce: Bread and circuses?

[13:38] druth Vlodovic: without it there would have been no war, with it it may have been inevitable

[13:38] Qt Core: exactly, druth, it was not just him

[13:39] Bruce ponders the mass hypnosis of pageantry of all sorts.

[13:39] druth Vlodovic: in a way bread and circuses is the actual proper use of societal power

[13:39] Bruce: How so, druth?

[13:39] druth Vlodovic: remove the need for the top to serve the bottom and you get fascism

[13:40] Bruce: Hmmmm.  So, bread and circuses makes that possible?

[13:40] druth Vlodovic: equals socialism in a way

[13:40] Bruce nods.

[13:40] druth Vlodovic: providing bread to the masses is why we get together, that and fear of "the other"

[13:41] Bruce: ancient tribal instinct?

[13:42] druth Vlodovic: I was listening to a person saying that it is hard for Syrian refugees because they are accustomed to consult with the closest 20 members of their family to make decisions

[13:42] druth Vlodovic: something we have lost in the west

[13:42] Bruce nods.

[13:42] Qt Core: i think we most got together to manage the rivers where peoplw started to settle then the newly appointed bosses started enjoying the power

[13:43] druth Vlodovic: it goes to their heads

[13:43] Qt Core: the tribe is still too little

 

[13:43] Bell

 

[13:43] druth Vlodovic: I was in court recently watching people genuflecting to the judge, thinking "a smart judge would ban that behaviour"

[13:44] Bruce: I read somewhere that the ideal population of a town or a neighborhood is about 300 people.  Genuflecting to a judge!!!  How curious -- medieval!

[13:45] Qt Core: that is quite a tribe/clan size, where you could know and care for everyone

[13:45] druth Vlodovic: it is an open show of contempt for the judge, though in feudal times it was regarded differently

[13:46] Bruce: There's that monolithic hierarchy thing again.

[13:46] druth Vlodovic: I think the Norse had "hundreds" groups of a hundred who would vote and provide representatives to the gov't

 [13:48] druth Vlodovic: in Canada we have a weird thing, where we vote for the local rep and the party on one X

[13:48] druth Vlodovic: not really a good idea to my mind

[13:48] Bruce: nods, parliamentarian . . . .?

[13:49] druth Vlodovic: they keep talking about senate reform, I wonder what would happen if we did an elected senate purely by ideologies and parliament by person

[13:49] druth Vlodovic: or region

[13:50] Bruce: How would the prime minister be selected in such a system, druth?

[13:51] druth Vlodovic: right now the prime minister is elected directly the governor general, the only requirement that they have the confidence of the house

[13:51] druth Vlodovic: but the tradition is entirely different, and not compatible with that

[13:51] Qt Core: we are trying something like it, lower chamber elected and upper one nominated by local representation

[13:51] druth Vlodovic: we assume that the leader of the party with the most seats will be selected

[13:51] druth Vlodovic: but that is entirely unnecessary

[13:51] Qt Core: constitutional reform in progress, maybe a referendum on it this summer if i remember it right

[13:51] Bruce nods.

[13:52] druth Vlodovic: an appointed senate isn't a terrible idea

[13:52] Bruce: I hope your two countries have found a way to keep money out of politics --- In America money seems to control everything.

[13:52] druth Vlodovic: but parliament is in the middle of a power grab

[13:53] druth Vlodovic: money = power

[13:53] Qt Core: lol, bruce ;-)

[13:53] druth Vlodovic: make all the politicians take a vow of poverty

[13:53] Bruce: :)

[13:54] Bruce: Would that be one way to ensure anarchy? --- no one would want to go into politics!

[13:54] Qt Core: pay to politicians exactly what they gained with they before jobs (plus inflation), pay for their expenses after scrutiny

[13:54] druth Vlodovic: if anyone wants political power they should never have it

[13:54] Bruce (bruce.mowbray) nods.  It's a plan.

[13:55] druth Vlodovic: reminds me of matter-eater lad in comics, he got drafted by random drawing into the politics of his home planet

[13:55] druth Vlodovic: not the worst system I can imagine

[13:55] Bruce: hmmmm, ponders selection of government leaders by random drawings.

[13:55] Bruce: That's how they used to raise armies in America, you know.

[13:56] druth Vlodovic: pay the politicians double the average wage of the population

[13:56] druth Vlodovic: oh?

[13:56] Qt Core: make being a mp a hidden job, you can say to anyone you are one and it is all done secretly by night ?

[13:56] druth Vlodovic: sounds like now, qt

[13:57] Qt Core: so lobbyists would not know who to pay

[13:57] Bruce: When the US had a draft -- (during the Vietnam era) armies were raised by lottery.

[13:57] Qt Core: not even parties would know who is elected

[13:57] druth Vlodovic: 3rd house, lobbyists   lol

[13:58] Bruce: Would anonymity keep the reps more responsive to the citizenry, though?

[13:58] druth Vlodovic: the advantage of a hereditary monarchy is that the lynchpin power structure dies on a semi-regular basis

[13:58] Qt Core: probably not, just unknown to lobbyists

[13:59] Bruce (bruce.mowbray) nods, glances at watch, realizes it's time to scrape up dinner.

[13:59] Qt Core: but we may be spared the political shows...

[13:59] druth Vlodovic: so...

[13:59] druth Vlodovic: are we more peaceful and enlightened now?

[14:00] Qt Core: if not what to do ?

[14:00] Qt Core: ;-)

 

[14:00] Bell

 

[14:00] Bruce: Thank you, druth and Qt.

[14:01] druth Vlodovic: have fun Bruce

[14:01] Bruce: Bye for now....

[14:01] Qt Core: ty Bruce and Druth :-)