Page last modified 21:13, 10 Jul 2018 by eliza
2018.07.10 12:00 - Dream Session: Meeting Tura
Table of contents
No headersAttending today were Alma, Tura, Zen, Eliza, and Luci.
Session Beginning (opening greetings and chat pasted at the end)
Eliza Madrigal: Might be a small group today (although when I say that sometimes everyone shows up as if just to prove me wrong)
Eliza Madrigal: welcome back Zen
Tura Brezoianu: wb Zen
Zen (Zen Arado): thanks Hi Alma
Eliza Madrigal: Don't want to wait much to start, since Tura had an interesting dream. I can make a note for anyone arriving later
Zen (Zen Arado): thanks for that link Eliza
[ link: http://deconstructingyourself.<wbr/>com/podcast/dy-023-lucid-<wbr/>dreaming-meditation-and-<wbr/>consciousness-with-guest-evan-<wbr/>thompson ]
[ link: http://deconstructingyourself.<wbr/>com/podcast/dy-023-lucid-<wbr/>dreaming-meditation-and-<wbr/>consciousness-with-guest-evan-<wbr/>thompson ]
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, most welcome, lots in there
Zen (Zen Arado): very interesting
Zen (Zen Arado): only heard half so far though
Eliza Madrigal: he moves away from talking about dreaming and then comes back
Zen (Zen Arado): yes
Zen (Zen Arado): like the way he intertwines things
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I haven't had time to listen to it yet
Tura Brezoianu: I liked the complete absence of woo :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen (Zen Arado): might buy his book but it's a bit expensive
Tura Brezoianu: I was more impulsive and ordered it.
Zen (Zen Arado): :)
Eliza Madrigal: ah great, so you can tell us how it reads
Zen (Zen Arado): like his philosophy background
Eliza Madrigal loves "absence of woo" although can rarely be accused of that
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Tura would you like to share your dream now?
Tura Brezoianu: ok
Tura Brezoianu: At the beginning of this dream, I was Tura rather than my RL self.
Tura Brezoianu: I was at some sort of sci-fi convention. I went into a programme item, not knowing what it was, but then I heard my name called out by the compere, "Tu-ra Bre-zoi-a-nu", just like that, and I realised this was some sort of audience participation thing.
Tura Brezoianu: But I didn't know what I should be doing. Then I found myself doing stuff anyway and I figured they must be using RLV or SL Experiences.
Tura Brezoianu: I only remember floating up a huge tower, like it might have been the beginning of a roller coaster ride. But I don't remember what followed after that.
Tura Brezoianu: Then after this event had finished, people were clearing up.
Tura Brezoianu: I was wandering around as that was happening. I don't seem to have "been Tura" at that point because then I met Tura.
Tura Brezoianu: It was weird to both of us because we were able to shake hands, Tura was physically present.
Tura Brezoianu: I felt like hugging her, but I didn't, and regretted that afterwards.
Zen (Zen Arado): :)
Tura Brezoianu: And that's about it.
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, that's very sweet, the instinct to hug
Zen (Zen Arado): very interesting
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): very cool dream ... the fluidity of identity
Zen (Zen Arado): two identities
Eliza Madrigal finds this amazing... trying to imagine what you both felt like
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): if I ever met my RL author face to face, we'd probably both faint
Eliza Madrigal: do you remember perspective when you met, like, looking into eyes, or...
Eliza Madrigal: the feel of shaking hands?
Tura Brezoianu: My identity may be been distributed between the two of me
Eliza Madrigal: both gesturing acceptance
The feeling of identity in SL
Zen (Zen Arado): makes me wonder about my SL identity
Zen (Zen Arado): I don't think I identify much with Zen Arado
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): actually, that's how I feel most of the time when I am in SL, like my identity is divided between RL typist and in-world avatar
Eliza Madrigal: these seem important and revealing questions to be asking
Zen (Zen Arado): oh that's about immersionism isn't it?
Eliza Madrigal: I've thought a lot about them, but have never had an experience of meeting eliza, unless I think of times when typist felt carried along by her energy
Zen (Zen Arado): I am an augmentationist I think
Eliza Madrigal: which happens in RL too
Tura Brezoianu: When I'm inworld, like now, my avatar feels like an extension of me, although as Eliza knows from the Amsterdam meetup, there's not really any resemblance :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Zen (Zen Arado): yes extension
Eliza Madrigal: there is friendliness
Eliza Madrigal: there is an interesting point at which extension is in the lead though, when in SL?
Zen (Zen Arado): what was that famous nocvel where a guy comes back and meets himself?
Tura Brezoianu: There's a lot of SF stories about that
Zen (Zen Arado): this was a film too I think
Eliza Madrigal: love that you were at a sci fi convention too
Eliza Madrigal: like, a place of suspended doubt, multiple possibilities
Zen (Zen Arado): maybe if we were less invested in our RL identity we could identify more with SL one?
Eliza Madrigal: could be a sort of integration, too
Zen (Zen Arado): all just thought forms anyway
Eliza Madrigal: so many interesting avenues - have you considered writing a short story out of it Tura?
Zen (Zen Arado): or a poem :)
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I've been reading a book that Zen talked about ... the one by Niebauer. I think it is very relevant to this discussion and to lucid dreaming too
Tura Brezoianu: There might be possibilities there. I do Crap Mariner's 100 Word Challenge fairly regularly, although I haven't mined dreams for ideas
Zen (Zen Arado): wonder if people would say 'it's just VR and not take seriously
Zen (Zen Arado): yes great book Alma
Eliza Madrigal: not in SL, and actually I don't think in general so much anymore... you don't always have to give full context either
Eliza Madrigal: there was a moment in a retreat once where we were sitting at a table outside, and I heard us as though at a different table... no mention directly of SL but mention of wonderful things. people probably though we were billionaires haha
Zen (Zen Arado): I used to help at an English class in SL where they wrote 100 word stories
Zen (Zen Arado): 'Twisted Stories
Zen (Zen Arado): it was fun
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'm making another note of the Niebauer book, too. Thanks
Tura Brezoianu: Which book is that?
Zen (Zen Arado): written by a neuroscientist
Zen (Zen Arado): rather long title :)
Tura Brezoianu: Ah, I think I've foudn it
Tura Brezoianu: "Catching Up with the Buddha: How Psychology, Brain Science and Eastern Philosophy are Changing Our Understanding of What it Means to be Human"
Zen (Zen Arado): no not that one
Eliza Madrigal: but sufficiently long title :)
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): Neurotics Guide to Avoiding Enlightenment
Eliza Madrigal: thanks
Zen (Zen Arado): that's it
Tura Brezoianu: I guessed the longer title :)
Zen (Zen Arado): was searching
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen (Zen Arado): he uses the teaching of E.Tolle and Alan Watts a lot
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): yes
Zen (Zen Arado): I love the convergence of neuroscience and Eastern teachings
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): but he adds some interesting twists to Tolle
Eliza Madrigal: that's tempting
Eliza Madrigal: I need someone to hurry up with the downloading directly to mind technology
Zen (Zen Arado): :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: 'books Zen is reading' came up in a dream for me this week, and for once I got it down into text. It is also a blended SL/RL dream but not quite so much awareness...
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): if it works as well as downloading to my computer, I'd be scared
Eliza Madrigal grins
Zen (Zen Arado): :)
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): want to share that one Eliza?
Tura Brezoianu listens
Eliza Madrigal: thanks, yes... wrote it to the wiki but I'll paste here too...
Eliza Madrigal: 7.07.2018:
Blind man, thin, casually well-dressed, composed. Has a small, light-haired dog. This is a recurring figure from a previous dream. He's not a romantic interest, but the feeling is that others in a group think he could be.
Zen is going into detail about a book he's carrying, "The History of ____." (? - a 2 syllable word) The book looks exactly like the Longchenpa book I bought in Nova Scotia, "Kindly Bent to Ease Us."
Eliza Madrigal: On the outside of Zen's book is a check mark emoji, indicating that I have read it. Storm expresses having read it as well. (This mixture of electronic and text reminded me of one of Alma's dreams.)Eliza Madrigal: Then, I am having soup with someone in a restaurant. We are discussing starting a business, and I'm asking others in the circle questions like, "Is it better to be an artist with a commercial venture? Or is it better to be commercial with an artistic bent?" The person I was meeting with, works with lots of different yellows, some very bright, and was nervous about others hearing our conversation. I was leaning toward being an artist with commercial coming later, and thinking that I'd like sweet and sour broth for my soup instead. She wanted mousse, but we hadn't started eating yet. (done]
Eliza Madrigal: the second part seems fivolous but was part of the same dream, so I left it in
Zen (Zen Arado): tries to think of a book 'the history of
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): the theme of combining opposites again ... commercial and art, sweet and sour
Eliza Madrigal: I found the book on my shelf and there is a subtitle "Part Three: Wonderment"
Eliza Madrigal: well spotted Alma, that's true
Eliza Madrigal: I was thinking as I heard Tura's dream, that I have no feeling of awareness of whether I'm eliza or typist in a dream like this
Zen (Zen Arado): or if you are in SL or not?
Eliza Madrigal: exactly
Zen (Zen Arado): that commercial artist bit is a huge topic
Zen (Zen Arado): we should do art for art's sake
Zen (Zen Arado): but artists have to live
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal: contemplative artists too
Zen (Zen Arado): I think the world has turned too pragmatic, utilitarian
Zen (Zen Arado): but just my hobby horse
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: think it is neat that dreams feel like parts of these sessions to me lately :)
Eliza Madrigal: Are there others?
Eliza Madrigal: btw on the wiki I posted a photo of the book it looked like...
Eliza Madrigal: https://wiki.playasbeing.org/index.php?title=Guardian_Pages/Guardians%27_Contributions/Eliza/Dream_Practice_-_2018/E_Dreams
Eliza Madrigal: (was doing a photo challenge anyway so included it)
Zen (Zen Arado): Kindly Bent to Ease Us?
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Zen (Zen Arado): strange title
Eliza Madrigal: obviously no relation to history of something or other :)
Eliza Madrigal: but looked identical
Eliza Madrigal shrugs
Eliza Madrigal: Are there other dream questions or reports, outside of dreams themselves?
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): lucidity continues to elude me
Eliza Madrigal: still on edges, Alma?
Zen (Zen Arado): I just have little scraps
Eliza Madrigal: scraps can contain a lot!
Zen (Zen Arado): only meaningful to me I think
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes it is good to share those too, Zen, and sometimes over time a pattern shows up
Zen (Zen Arado): dream with my mother
Zen (Zen Arado): I dreamt my mother had just died and felt really sad. I was in my house with someone and a man kept delivering bunches of flowers. Then I was in a church and a local councillor came and offered condolences. Last part was so strange. She had just given birth to four babies and I wondered how I was going to be able to look after them.
Zen (Zen Arado): done
Eliza Madrigal: quite a deep dream, Zen!
Eliza Madrigal: any intuitions?
Zen (Zen Arado): I was hearing story of Zen master
Zen (Zen Arado): Is that so ? story
Zen (Zen Arado): know it?
Zen (Zen Arado): ET tells it a lot
Eliza Madrigal: yes, but maybe not everyone?
Zen (Zen Arado): a girl feel pregnant and blamed it a Zen master next door
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): oh, yes
Tura Brezoianu: yes
Zen (Zen Arado): the parents got angry and shoved the baby on him telling him to look after it
Zen (Zen Arado): he just said 'is that so? and looked after it
Zen (Zen Arado): then the girl confessed it was the butcher's boy
Zen (Zen Arado): and took the baby off him though he had looked after it for a year
Zen (Zen Arado): he just said 'is that so?'
Zen (Zen Arado): done
Eliza Madrigal: ty
Zen (Zen Arado): that acceptance of circumstances always meant a lot to me
Zen (Zen Arado): though a bit extreme
Eliza Madrigal nods... acceptance without acceptance of upset
Zen (Zen Arado): so maybe the dream came from that?
Eliza Madrigal: Might you have been the four babies?
Zen (Zen Arado): could be
Eliza Madrigal: or in some loose sense, karma.... considering the woman is your mother
Zen (Zen Arado): or maybe lots of things I will have to accept
Zen (Zen Arado): ?
Eliza Madrigal: yes interesting, hm
Eliza Madrigal: or have already had to accept
Eliza Madrigal: nice that there were many flowers :)
Zen (Zen Arado): being reunited with family issues
Zen (Zen Arado): which I am maybe too remote from
Zen (Zen Arado): oh careworkers early
Zen (Zen Arado): have to go
Eliza Madrigal: :(
Eliza Madrigal: Okay, bye Zen have a good night
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): bye Zen
Tura Brezoianu: goodnight Zen
Zen (Zen Arado): thanks and byee
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): coincidentally, I also had a sad dream about a death this week
Eliza Madrigal listens
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I'm in my bathroom, filling the sink with water to wash my hands. Suddenly I see that my cat has fallen in the water and seems to have drowned. I pull her body out of the water. She is completely limp and lifeless. I feel terrible about this. I hold her body in my hands, trying to press the water out of her and hoping she might revive. For a few seconds it seems like she might, but then she goes limp again. I tell her that I am very sorry this happened. I feel very sad. [end]
Eliza Madrigal: :(((
Eliza Madrigal: what a sad dream
Eliza Madrigal: any notion of where that came from?
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I don't actually have a cat right now, but this cat resembled one that we had when I was growing up
Tura Brezoianu: what became of that cat?
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I don't really recall. We had several cats over the years
Eliza Madrigal: a desperate sort of feeling... to hold on to something or try to keep a project going?
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): or a sense of losing something
Eliza Madrigal nods
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I don't know where it came from
Eliza Madrigal: I sometimes think we have images out of sheer energy of things we experience at different scales
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Luci!
Eliza Madrigal: Zen just had to go, a bit early
(Sorry to have missed this last part during session!)
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): its interesting though, in relation to Zen's dream, that one thing that I remember about that cat when we were growing up was that she had 3 litters of kittens
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): Hi! I just remembered...so sorry
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): hi Luci
Eliza Madrigal: sorry to miss you today...can share one dream from earlier with you in IM... if you can hang around a little
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): Hi Lmadi:)
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): Almadi
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): sure!
Eliza Madrigal: :) on the way
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): reading now
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): Ooh! so cool!
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): to meet oneself
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): that would be such a moment
Eliza Madrigal: all kinds of questions of identity/avatarness come up
Eliza Madrigal: two death related dreams today too ... perhaps acceptance
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): It gets me to think about being a witness to oneself and exploring reciprocity...making a connection
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): my dreamcircle last night had dreamers in touch with people who had passed
Eliza Madrigal: neat that you use that word, because I've been thinking a lot about it this week... in the context of non zero-sum
Eliza Madrigal: Oh?
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): and signs of needing to leave a place of work, expiring drivers license, getting rid of what is not needed
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): what is non zero sum
Eliza Madrigal: hmm
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): be question I bet
Eliza Madrigal: maybe dreams can help us prepare at times
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): yes I do think so! I find 8 hours allows me to dream and remember
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): I must prepare for the eight hour sleep schedule more intentionally
Eliza Madrigal: zero sum is thinking in terms of limited or finite supply, and then sometimes we talk about getting beyond that, but there felt to be a missing step to me and that's the word that popped in that space - reciprocity
Sleep
Eliza Madrigal: Alma, Tura, how long do you sleep at night, and has that changed?
Tura Brezoianu: It varies a lot, anywhere from 5 to 8 hours
Tura Brezoianu: but usually between 6 and 7
Eliza Madrigal: pretty healthy
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I am usually in bed 7-8 hours, but not asleep the whole time
Eliza Madrigal: my sleep, since we started these sessions, is almost always in two blocks
Eliza Madrigal: about 4 hrs each
Eliza Madrigal: or maybe a bit less
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): I have a time around 4-5am that something wakes us...then if all is not too tense in life I am able to go back
Eliza Madrigal: the trendy term now is "sleep hygiene" :)
Eliza Madrigal: but I wonder about setting the stage, mise en dream
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): I think the chemicals we have inside us are supporting the two part sleep process. Read about it a while ago in a book Why We Sleep by Matthew Walker
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): Trusting that one can get back to is nice to have encouragement of the scientific explanation
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): sleep is on the way I can say
Eliza Madrigal: that's true... if one feels it is natural, not forcing...then there is no anxiety
Eliza Madrigal: Will have to go... made sushi yesterday and I can't believe it is all gone... so must figure out dinner :)
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): I should go too
Eliza Madrigal: well I don't have to, but like to anyway :)
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): So great to see you all! even if for a moment
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): Thanks!
Eliza Madrigal: you too Luci! I'll send an email earlier in the day next week
Tura Brezoianu: thanks all
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for being here Alma too
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): I keep forgetting to check email:) in summer
Eliza Madrigal: ah
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): SEe you next time
Eliza Madrigal: :) well we'll do our best
iSkye Silverweb: is online.
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): thank you Eliza, Tura, Luci
Eliza Madrigal: and (((Tura))))
Eliza Madrigal: Hugging Tura :))
Luci (Lucinda Lavender): Thanks Tura for the dream
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): have a good week
Eliza Madrigal: ♥ ♥ ♥
Eliza Madrigal: ♥ ♥ ♥
Early Greetings
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tura :))
Tura Brezoianu: hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Everything going well I hope
Tura Brezoianu: mustnt grumble :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: grumble away if it helps!
Tura Brezoianu: strange dream this morning
Tura Brezoianu: I met Tura
Eliza Madrigal: @@
Eliza Madrigal: sounds like a wonderful dream actually
Tura Brezoianu: We shook hands, both surprised that it was possible.
Eliza Madrigal: *wow*
Eliza Madrigal: who found who?
Tura Brezoianu: I was looking for her, because I knew she was around somewhere
Eliza Madrigal: maybe I shouldn't ask too many questions yet :)) Have you written it out?
Tura Brezoianu: I've written it. I can share it later when more people have arrived
Eliza Madrigal: great
Eliza Madrigal: Zen is a little late... suspect he is watching World Cup, but hopefully all okay
Eliza Madrigal: antsy to hear the rest ^.^
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Tura Brezoianu: hi Zen
Zen (Zen Arado): Hi Eliza, Tura :)
Eliza Madrigal: was wondering if you were caught in world cup :)
Zen (Zen Arado): just got back from having a nice meal
Zen (Zen Arado): scampi
Eliza Madrigal: Yum
Zen (Zen Arado): tomorrow is the big night
Eliza Madrigal: today's pretty big... fun game too, lots of energy
Eliza Madrigal: will watch the rest later
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Alma :)
Alma di Masala (Almadi Masala): hi Eliza, Tura, Zen
Tura Brezoianu: hi Alma
Eliza Madrigal: oop
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On diff scales you see the same structure of waking and lucidity
"Embodied nature of waking up", includes our social lives. "Most of what we are is not transparent to us in our waking state."
'Waking up' is something basic to our embodied being.
- strong phenomenological quality of the feeling of having been asleep, feeling there is a depth to bodily organic being that is carrying us through sleep.
some of the thinking of the spider takes place 'in' the web, which is considered a part of their memory
(not extended consciousness, but for instance support structures can form a larger system feedback/self correcting/loopiness, as in reliance on iphone) -- pattern of relations
is consciousness or mind a fundamental part of the universe? We can't rule it out, but it isn't how he naturally approaches the question. Rather he chooses specific practices to deepen experiences phenomenologically.
We're exploring our experience of, rather than the thing - cool when it maps on to something we can measure, but an important distinction.
science is a collective process - intersubjective depending on a community of observers. Public means intersubjective.
Meditation is a way of exploring mind/body in the way dance or martial arts does.
teachers check your accomplishment against their experience, but it isn't 'science' in the same way.
They can enrich each other but they aren't a science - danger to 'instrumentalize' your self. He finds that this distorts subjectivity.
[minute 35+]
- being able to attend to the dream as a dream, or to attend to the dream-like state. Very different from trying to control the narrative of the dream.
- cultivate an awareness such that whatever arises in the dream, you can cultivate certain qualities in relation to it (positive quality of compassionate response, for instance).
[[cultivating equanimity in the face of whatever the mind is stirring up.]]
- In the dream, what you are constructing out of are traces of memory and life experiences. This leads us to noticing that construction in the waking state also. "Whatever is happening waking/dreaming, there is a way it is being mentally framed and configured."
formulation of consciousness
3 fold structure seen across Indian contemplative traditions:
*contents of awareness/consciousness
*awareness as distinct from contents (awareness as such)
*ways that we construct our sense of self through identifying with certain contents of awareness and dis-identifying with others
(fundamentally a body grounded sense of self)
Body in the dream is a mentally simulated feeling of the body (mentally enacted) == in a lucid dream you are aware of that so you have a more complex sense of awareness. [[dream ego, dreamer]]
*In dreamless sleep, the mentally imagined sense of self is absent and there is a feeling of sheer awareness.
feeling of awareness = feeling of sentience = feeling of being alive
How is dream ego constructed?
similar to autobiographical memory /perspective taking
[dream where you live from within or where you see yourself from without]
[dream is suigeneris but linked to imagination and memory]
Waking sense of self similar = being a person with a narrative and history, etc. - work of imaginative memory.
((memory (time) always a creative construction in the present))
flight is not inside the wings
they make flying possible but are not the whole process edited 01:42, 18 Jul 2018