The Guardian for this meeting was Agatha Macbeth. The comments are by Agatha Macbeth.

Bleu Oleander's current display-name is "Bleu".
Tura Brezoianu: hi Ag, Bleu
Bleu Oleander: hi Aggers, Tura
Agatha Macbeth: Evening all
Agatha Macbeth: Yay balloons
--BELL--1.00
Agatha Macbeth: Merci :)
Tura Brezoianu: thanks Bleu
Bleu Oleander: yw!
Agatha Macbeth: I see Wester :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Wes
Wester Kiranov: hi all
Bleu Oleander: hi Wester :)
Tura Brezoianu: hi Wester
Wester Kiranov: all in style bleu
Bleu Oleander: we can be festive today :)
Agatha Macbeth: New year's day in some cultures
Bleu Oleander: today?
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
Bleu Oleander: nice!

Agatha Macbeth: Wonder who's coming?
Agatha Macbeth: Or is this it
Agatha Macbeth wonders if she crashed
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Alma :)
Almadi Masala's current display-name is "Alma di Masala".
Tura Brezoianu: hi Alma
Wester Kiranov: hi alma
Almadi Masala: hi Aga, Bleu, Tura, Wester
Bleu Oleander: hi Alma :)

Agatha Macbeth: Shall we start then?
Bleu Oleander: sure
Wester Kiranov: yes
Almadi Masala: ok
--BELL--1.15
Wester Kiranov: so, we all read the introduction of trying not to try
Bleu Oleander: yes
Wester Kiranov: first thoughts?
Almadi Masala nods
Tura Brezoianu: yes
Bleu Oleander: the term ' spontaneity' is an interesting one and I'll enjoy seeing how he continues to relate that to wu wei
Wester Kiranov still listening
Almadi Masala: and I am interested to see how he relates it to brain function. I wonder if it relates to the right/left hemisphere division
Wester Kiranov: spoiler: no, not left/right
Wester Kiranov: he is going to handle hot/cold though
Bleu Oleander: I'm also interested in how he will develop thoughts about our nonconscious mind and intuition versus what he calls conscious, verbal mind
Tura Brezoianu: System 1/System 2 is the recently coined terminology, which I think he refers to somewhere
Bleu Oleander: which I think is hot cold :)
Tura Brezoianu: that is, intuition and reasoning
Wester Kiranov: this is the same division basically
Bleu Oleander: yes
Wester Kiranov: intuition vs verbal mind is definitely coming back
Bleu Oleander: also i'm interested in contract between wu wei and flow
Wester Kiranov: because verbal mind can be a wonderful thing and it can get in the way
Wester Kiranov: he says something about it here, riught? flow
Bleu Oleander: I've read Csikszentmihalyi's books
Wester Kiranov: i am still planning to ;)
Bleu Oleander: yes, he says there is a difference, I'm not sure what that means
Wester Kiranov: you actually know how to spell the name
Bleu Oleander: ha! have the book in front of me
Wester Kiranov: ah
Agatha Macbeth would like to know how to pronounce it :p
Bleu Oleander: don't ask me to say it tho :P
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
Agatha Macbeth: Call him Smith
Bleu Oleander: flow guy
Wester Kiranov: chiksy ;)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Almadi Masala: the statement that stood out for me is when he says that the culminatin of knowledge is not understood in terms of grasping abstract principles, but as entering a state of wu-wei
Wester Kiranov: yeah, thats a good one
Wester Kiranov: wu wei as a kind of knowledge, or sign of it
Wester Kiranov: the difference between grasping and entering knowledge strikes me now
Bleu Oleander: I think of it more as having accummulated knowledge through experience, one can 'relax' and be with that knowledge in the world and with each other
Almadi Masala: I think back on when I first learned to ride a bicycle
Bleu Oleander: its like riding a bike ... takes some knowledge/practice before you can ride it without thinking about how you're riding it
Almadi Masala: haha!!
Bleu Oleander: ha! yes exactly
--BELL--1.30
Almadi Masala: my father tried to teach me to ride by telling me how to do it, and I could not do it. Then my sister took me out and put me on the bike and just said "do it" ... and then I could do it
Bleu Oleander: it was a combination for me
Bleu Oleander: also falling a few times
Wester Kiranov: how-to things are hard to learn from words
Tura Brezoianu: Aristotle perfectly described how to learn to ride a bicycle: "the things we have to learn before we can do them, we learn by doing them". And they didn't even have bicycles then!
Bleu Oleander: well, not exclusively words, but some words can help the doing ... depends on the task of course
Almadi Masala: another example: tying my shoelaces is automatic, but I could never explain in words how to do it
Wester Kiranov: these kind of things are even difficult to show if the other person doesnt get it
Wester Kiranov: for instance if someone has muscle problems
Tura Brezoianu: How do you teach wu-wei? I'll be interested to see if the Chinese philosophers had an answer to that?
Bleu Oleander: bikes and shoelaces are simple tasks, building a computer you might need some words :)
Wester Kiranov: various ones
Wester Kiranov: very various answers
Wester Kiranov: still computers cant ride bikes
Bleu Oleander: yet
Agatha Macbeth: Could probably steer one
Wester Kiranov: theyre better at chess than riding bikes because we thought the thinking was more important
Bleu Oleander: don't really need shoes
Almadi Masala: and bicycles cannot play chess
Tura Brezoianu: Robot rides bike: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT3vfSQePcs (skip the initial ad)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Always do
Wester Kiranov: :-) point taken
Almadi Masala: cute!
Wester Kiranov: yeah, i sometimes forget how robotics has taken flight in the last years
Bleu Oleander: and neural network technology for AI
--BELL--1.45
Bleu Oleander: its still a question of how good the input is
Wester Kiranov: neural networks, as i remember, do help us learn but not ride bikes
Bleu Oleander: both in the human brain and in AI systems
Bleu Oleander: ah but they do help us ride bikes
Wester Kiranov: yes, they are needed to ride bikes but they are not enough
Bleu Oleander: its really the stored neural networks in the brain that help you rely on your accummulated knowledge
Almadi Masala: I wonder why we humans are so eager to build machines that could one day replace us?
Agatha Macbeth: Just lazy I guess
Bleu Oleander: riding a bike is stored neural patterns that control movement
Tura Brezoianu: I learned to ride a bicycle when I was 22 (*cough* a very long time ago), never having sat on one before. It took about three weeks to get to the point of mixing with heavy traffic, and it still seems like a miracle every time I ride.
Bleu Oleander: :)
Tura Brezoianu: How am I doing this? How did I learn to do this? I have no idea.
Bleu Oleander: its like walking ... learning balance and establishing patterns of movement through experience
Wester Kiranov: and having the right hardware
Bleu Oleander: learning to swim is another one that is not always 'nature' ... takes some practice to get the breathing right
Bleu Oleander: natural ... I meant :)
Tura Brezoianu: Practice the unnatural until it becomes natural. That would be Confucius' advice.
Bleu Oleander: yep
Almadi Masala: that's very true about learning to play music, too
Agatha Macbeth: Need to slip out early today kids...
Agatha Macbeth: I've got the log
Wester Kiranov: bye aga
Agatha Macbeth: See ya
Tura Brezoianu: bye Agatha
Almadi Masala: bye Agatha
Bleu Oleander: bye Aggers
Bleu Oleander: I must get going too
Bleu Oleander: chapter 1 for next week?
Wester Kiranov: bye bleu
Wester Kiranov: yes, ch 1 next week
Bleu Oleander: ok thanks and take care all
Almadi Masala: bye Bleu
Bleu Oleander: bye bye
Almadi Masala: I should get going too ... looking forward to chapter 1 :)
Wester Kiranov: bye alma
Tura Brezoianu: goodnight Alma, Wester
--BELL--2.00
Wester Kiranov: bye tura, goodnight
Almadi Masala: bye for now