The Guardian for this meeting was Agatha Macbeth. The comments are by Agatha Macbeth.

Aphrodite Macbain: 's current display-name is "Aph".
--BELL--12.45
Catrinamonblue Resident: 's current display-name is "Catrinamonblue".
Tura Brezoianu: hi Aph, Catrina
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Tura
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Aph :)
Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Tura Brezoianu: hi Bleu
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Bleu :)
Bleu Oleander: how is everyone?
Catrinamonblue Resident: chugging along. It's harder to come here now that I am working full time hours :(
Bleu Oleander: yes for me too these days
Tura Brezoianu: Move to the UK. :) It's evening here.
Bleu Oleander: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hello!
Bleu Oleander: hi Aph!
--BELL--1.00
Aphrodite Macbain: Sorry I've been away so much
Catrinamonblue Resident: it's later afternoon here 4pm but usually by the time I finish my work day I am too tired to do anything else at all.... I usually eat watch a show and drop into bed....
Catrinamonblue Resident: no worries Aph :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I'ce had a lot on my plate
Aphrodite Macbain: I've
Bleu Oleander: hi Wester :)
Wester Kiranov: hi
Santoshima Resident: 's current display-name is "San".
Bleu Oleander: hi San :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Wester, Hi San :)
Santoshima Resident: hello everyone
Tura Brezoianu: hi San, Wester
Aphrodite Macbain: H Wester- I haven't seen you inages!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi San
Aphrodite Macbain: Love these balloons Bleu
Wester Kiranov: hi aph - i know, i'm just here for the book ;-)
Bleu Oleander: ty Aph!
Aphrodite Macbain: are there Tshirts to match?
Aphrodite Macbain: grins
Bleu Oleander: yes actually :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Very spring-like
Aphrodite Macbain: Oh good
Aphrodite Macbain: thank you!
Zen Arado: 's current display-name is "Zen".
Bleu Oleander: hi Zen :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Zen
Wester Kiranov: hi zen
Tura Brezoianu: hi Zen
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Zen :)
Zen Arado: Hi all :)
Zen Arado: only here cos times haven
Aphrodite Macbain: Have you already started discussing the new book?
Santoshima Resident: back for WG, bye folks
Zen Arado: t chabged back yet
Aphrodite Macbain: I thought the WG started at 2
Tura Brezoianu: We discussed the introduction last week
Aphrodite Macbain: ah
Bleu Oleander: yes WG at 2pm

Wester Kiranov: we discussed the introduction last week
Bleu Oleander: today is chapter 1, yes?
Wester Kiranov: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: I havent had a chance to read it yet so will listen -attentively
Wester Kiranov: skillful butchers and graceful gentlemen
Tura Brezoianu: Butcher Ding and Woodcarver Qing
Aphrodite Macbain: !
Aphrodite Macbain: skillful means?
Agatha Macbeth: Here I am
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Aggers
Tura Brezoianu: here you are!
Bleu Oleander: yay! hi Aggers
Aphrodite Macbain: Nice T shirt
Wester Kiranov: hi aga
Agatha Macbeth: Phew
Bleu Oleander: vintage PaB party
Bleu Oleander: hiya Riddle :)
Agatha Macbeth waves to Rid
Riddle Sideways: hi All, sorry late
Wester Kiranov: hi riddle
Aphrodite Macbain siles at Riddle
Aphrodite Macbain: and smiles
Zen Arado: Hi Aggers
Agatha Macbeth: Not the only one :p
Riddle Sideways: siles back
Aphrodite Macbain: grins
Aphrodite Macbain: nice turnout
Zen Arado: Hi Riddle
Riddle Sideways: nice place to eat lunch
Zen Arado: ding sing
Zen Arado: ding ding
Zen Arado: ox falls apart
Bleu Oleander: I don't like using the metaphor of animal sacrifice for religious ceremony, but I get his example of after attaining skill to relax and let it happen effortlessly
Agatha Macbeth: Thx Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: yvw
Aphrodite Macbain: Effortless killing?
Zen Arado: yes - a skill
Zen Arado: like driving a car?
--BELL--1.15
Wester Kiranov: one of the points of the ox story is actually that someone lowly like a butcher can do this too
Aphrodite Macbain: or a bicycle
Bleu Oleander: better metaphor for me ... driving a car
Zen Arado: automatic pilot?
Aphrodite Macbain: Involves practice and attention
Tura Brezoianu: Finding the effortless way by acting in accordance with the world.
Bleu Oleander: once a skill becomes 'embodied' we can perform it without consciously thinking about it
Tura Brezoianu: But it takes learning and practice to finally act without struggling.
Wester Kiranov: in an automatic pilot you don't pay attention, here you do nothing but pay attention
Zen Arado: is it like muscle memory?
Zen Arado: but that is cognitive too?
Wester Kiranov: it is being able to let muscle memory take over
Aphrodite Macbain: First cognitive then automatic
Riddle Sideways: beginner trying to figure out which left foot moves now
Wester Kiranov: as i understand it
Zen Arado: playing a piano well?
Wester Kiranov: yes
Bleu Oleander: its a bit like flow
Bleu Oleander: and Kahneman's system 1
Agatha Macbeth: Know the flow as you go
Aphrodite Macbain: But does this imply it is good to do things without thinking? I would think that mindfulness is always better
Wester Kiranov: he'll come to flow in the next chapter ;-)
Tura Brezoianu: So learning virtue is like learning a physical skill?
Tura Brezoianu: Rather than memorising the right things to do.
Wester Kiranov: thinking and mindfulness are not opposites
Aphrodite Macbain: not at all
Wester Kiranov: thinking can get in the way of mindfulness
Aphrodite Macbain: paying attention is different from thinking I guess
Wester Kiranov: that's what i meant
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bleu Oleander: no, conscious paying attention is thinking too
Wester Kiranov listens
Aphrodite Macbain: Different parts of our senses
Aphrodite Macbain: observing, feeling and then making sense of it
Bleu Oleander: I understand wu wei to be more like flow, in that you are not conscious of what you are doing, more automatic but at the same time engaged, is that right?
Zen Arado: Confucius applies it to everyday behaviour
Agatha Macbeth: More of a state than an action I think
Zen Arado: learned polite behaviour so you move easily through society gracefully also without thinking?
Bleu Oleander: we are like butcher ding's blade and the bones are the barriers and obstacles we face in life, the author says
Aphrodite Macbain: Is he really advocating action without thinking? Surely constant mindfulness is a preferred state.
Wester Kiranov: ah yes , "the wu wei person moves only through the open spaces in life"
Bleu Oleander: no
Bleu Oleander: not action without thinking
Zen Arado: but effort still required initially
Zen Arado: lots of effort and practice
Wester Kiranov: the yes was to the previous one
Tura Brezoianu: The various thinkers took different approaches. Try really hard, vs. don't try at all.
Bleu Oleander: skilled action that is embodied so conscious attention seems not necessary
Zen Arado: yes
Wester Kiranov: i think butcher ding is very mindful
Aphrodite Macbain: but try less once you've got the hang of it?
Wester Kiranov: but HE does not DO anything
Wester Kiranov: "it" takes over
Tura Brezoianu: To me, I think being able to do by not trying is the result of a long period of trying hard to do.
Aphrodite Macbain: what's it?
Bleu Oleander: actually, butcher ding is not that mindful in that he doesn't see the ox that he is killing
Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm
Aphrodite Macbain: I see that as a problem
Bleu Oleander: he only sees the 'spiritual' experience
Tura Brezoianu: He sees" the Heavenly pattern of the ox"
Bleu Oleander: I didn't like the metaphor for that reason
Aphrodite Macbain: Sounds sort of Platonic. He sees the ideal form of the ox
Bleu Oleander: doesn't see the ox as a living being
Tura Brezoianu: He descends from that height when he comes to a difficulty: "become careful and alert, focus my vision, slow my movements, and move the blade with the greatest subtlety"
Bleu Oleander: uses it only for religious ceremony, sadly people still do things like that
Wester Kiranov: well, the confucians say the gentleman should keep away from the kitchen
Aphrodite Macbain: laughs
Wester Kiranov: so compared to that its an improvement
Tura Brezoianu: "...so that the ox simply falls apart, like a clod of earth falling to the ground"
Aphrodite Macbain: they should stick to the battlefield?
Tura Brezoianu: I saw a quote about that: "The attitude of the gentleman towards animals is this: once having seen them alive, he cannot bear to see them die, and once having heard their cry, he cannot bear to eat their flesh. That is why the gentleman keeps his distance from the kitchen." (Mencius)
Wester Kiranov: well, going to the kitchen will ruin their appetite
Wester Kiranov: that was the one i meant
--BELL--1.30
Tura Brezoianu: Or as someone once said, don't watch sausages being made.
Bleu Oleander: or becomes vegan :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: So too much reality ends up spoiling things?
Zen Arado: or slaughterhouse
Bleu Oleander: book is 50 years old this week :)
Agatha Macbeth: Really?
Bleu Oleander: yep
Wester Kiranov: you mean 5?
Bleu Oleander: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/b...niversary.html
Wester Kiranov: mencius is ch 5
Wester Kiranov: oh that book
Bleu Oleander: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Billy Pilgrim
Bleu Oleander: might be interesting to read it again now
Agatha Macbeth: I have it
Aphrodite Macbain: what's it about?
Agatha Macbeth: And Steppenwolf
Riddle Sideways: like Steppenwolf book and music
Zen Arado: is Confuciocian cultured wu wei proper wu wei?
Agatha Macbeth: A guy who travels backwards and forwards in time
Tura Brezoianu: Depends which ancient Chinese sage you ask
Wester Kiranov: confucius thought so
Bleu Oleander: what does your question mean Zen?
Agatha Macbeth: And ends up on an alien planet with a stripper!
Aphrodite Macbain: hence pilgrim.. nods
Wester Kiranov: laozi did not
Zen Arado: still needs lots of effort
Zen Arado: >
Bleu Oleander: is there a 'proper' wu wei?
Zen Arado: good question
Zen Arado: that's whet we hope to find out :)
Bleu Oleander: he talks about moraly proper qu wei
Aphrodite Macbain: takes practice to be proper
Tura Brezoianu: I think of the Confucian method as the way to the goal, and Laozi as describing the goal. Not sure either of them would agree though
Bleu Oleander: compares to a sprout wating to break throught the ground
Wester Kiranov: im pretty sure they would not
Wester Kiranov: the sprout is mencius, that is a reaction to laozi again
Bleu Oleander: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: why wouldn't they agree?
Zen Arado: maybe it's just having a happy medium between effort and going with the flow - which would be disappointing :(
Bleu Oleander: the author mentions spontaneity and charisma that I'm thinking he will come back to?
Zen Arado: the de
Bleu Oleander: yes
Zen Arado: wouldn't that be nice
Zen Arado: I want some
Aphrodite Macbain: charisma?
Zen Arado: maybe youcan have it and not realise?
Zen Arado: de
Wester Kiranov: the author also promises no easy solutions
Wester Kiranov: so he hasn't bottled de yet
Zen Arado: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: could someone tell me what "de" is?
Zen Arado: marketinh idea
Zen Arado: ong
Wester Kiranov: de is the charisma emanating from someone in wu wei
Aphrodite Macbain: ah thanks Wester
Wester Kiranov: which makes them very efficient socially
Aphrodite Macbain: an air of self confidence?
Wester Kiranov: more like nonself confidence. or alternatively, a mandate from heaven
--BELL--1.45
Bleu Oleander: the author also seems to say that relying on your unconscious or intuition is better than consciously thinking ... I would say that the unconscious and/or the intuition can make mistakes too, so might need to be checked with conscious thought except where learned physical performance is concerned, like riding a bike
Agatha Macbeth: I know what he means
Tura Brezoianu: Two horses yoked to the same chariot, they must work together
Zen Arado: sorry have to go - interesting conversation thanks
Aphrodite Macbain: Like keeping things in balance - the unconscious and the awareness
Wester Kiranov: bye zen
Agatha Macbeth: Be well Zenny
Tura Brezoianu: bye Zen
Bleu Oleander: by Zen tc
Riddle Sideways: by Zen, take care
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Zen
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Zen
Tura Brezoianu: Perhaps this state is like improvising on a musical instrument. Before you can do that, you must learn the instrument's technique, and the things that can be done with it. When you understand how the flow of the instrument works, then you can go with it.
Aphrodite Macbain: Nice metaphor Tura
Aphrodite Macbain: (or maybe it's a simile)
Bleu Oleander: yes he gives that example of improv
Wester Kiranov: the author uses the same one
Aphrodite Macbain: are we not talking about skillful means here?
Bleu Oleander: need the skills first, wu wei comes after
Wester Kiranov: skillful means is a different concept
Riddle Sideways: once the mechanics of playing notes is learned, thinking can go on to 'What should be played'
Wester Kiranov: for instance, means are always means to a goal
Aphrodite Macbain: oh? not a means to a goal?
Wester Kiranov: the skill of Ding is a goal in itself
Bleu Oleander: goal seems to be wu wei state, yes?
Wester Kiranov: to get from a means to a goal you have to try
Aphrodite Macbain: I thought the wu wei state was a means to enlightenment
Tura Brezoianu: For Confucius, it's a means to right action in the world, especially by the people in charge of it.
Wester Kiranov: enlightement does not come into it yet. for these chinese masters anyway
Aphrodite Macbain: ok
Aphrodite Macbain: they just want good government
Bleu Oleander: don't we all !!
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Agatha Macbeth: A goal hard to attain
Bleu Oleander: seems so
Aphrodite Macbain: that's what Confucius was attempting
Aphrodite Macbain: I think he gave up in the end
Wester Kiranov: it was pretty pressing too; these books were written when all chinese states were at war with each other
Bleu Oleander: philosophies respond to cultures
Wester Kiranov: sure
Aphrodite Macbain: and also shape them
Wester Kiranov: sure again
Aphrodite Macbain: very slowly unless we are talking about the french and american revolutions
Bleu Oleander: sorry to need to leave, but there is a WG mtg now at 2pm ... if anyone wants to come, its on upper level Guardian meeting area ... nice to see you all and look forward to chapter 2 next week
Wester Kiranov: bye bleu
Riddle Sideways: need to go there too
Tura Brezoianu: bye Bleu
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bleu. Good luck with the meeting
Aphrodite Macbain: Are u off too Cat?
Wester Kiranov: and bye
Catrinamonblue Resident: I came mostly for the WG meeting but was nice to listen here :)
Wester Kiranov: thanks
Aphrodite Macbain: Glad you came
Aphrodite Macbain: I will try and come back again but cant promise it. I'll be getting a new knee in a couple of weeks so my life will become more compicated
Aphrodite Macbain: I'll try an catch up with the reading.
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Bleuji
Wester Kiranov: i do hope your knee works out fine then
--BELL--2.00
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks wester
Agatha Macbeth: Looks like that's it then
Aphrodite Macbain: /bye everyone
Tura Brezoianu: thanks all
Agatha Macbeth: TC Aph
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Tu and Wester
Tura Brezoianu: bye