10-12 - Seeing is Enough

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    Genesis Zhangsun was the scribe for 10,11,12. 

    The theme of "seeing as enough" means for me that seeing can be viewed both as means on our spiritual path (the process of awareness) as well as the end of our spiritual path (awareness as an end in of itself.)  The various excerpts below bring this issue home  in very intensely personal contexts and also in a more general/universal sense.

    The process of awareness is both what allows our investigation to take place, the means, and at the same time the end of the investigation. In my humble opinion the "point" of self awareness is awareness and any other "point" you can locate reveals more self identifications and attachments.  This is because the “process” of awareness is not really a process, ehich I believe Stim has alluded to if not directly stated, and it is not about becoming something or not something.  It is not about conquering the self, eliminating the self, neither is it about merging with Being, or dissolving into Being. Self awareness does not belong to the self, there is no self, so it is awareness simply for the sake of awareness. This awareness I think is what we refer to as Being, or emptiness, or for others Buddha nature. The activity itself of awareness has a presence of its own, and my intuition is that it is this presence that is enlightened rather than the self.  Perhaps this is why some traditions like the Zen tradition have such a big emphasis on just sitting, because the activity, taking the posture is the activity of enlightenment, of completeness and the more you engage with it the more you actually open up to its presence and embody it.

    And yet it is not as simple as just that.  It is not as simple as the activity is enlightened so you should do nothing. The more the self has the earnest intent to engage the activity, the more it embodies that activity, and the more everything around it begins to appreciate and benefit from its quality. So it is about the struggle, the willingness to dive into the investigation itself, to refine it and cultivate it.  This is the spirit of intentionality required for the spiritual path, which Solobill brought up awhile back, it is the intent to engage enlightenment, not the intent to actually atain it that is required. A self could never "attain" a no self, something beyond self.  Enlightenment from an ordinary self's perspective is unattainable.  So what can the self do, what can you really do if it is precisely "you" in the way of enlightenment?

    For me it is about beginning with a firm commitment to respect my own nature and to pursue that respect in an uncompromising and persistent way. To pursue that respect and not my nature, to pursue the means and not the end moment to moment.  To be nothing less than what I am truly am beyond dualities, beyond time and space .   It is my intent to engage a higher awareness that enables me to see more clearly who that "I am" truly is. My intention to see and the seeing itself is really and truly enough. For me this is to maintain the view of completeness while "progressing" on my path.  Seeing is both the beginning and the end, so from this persepective starting at the end is possible, more than possible, in fact we are already doing it.

    I see that uncompromising and earnest intent to be aware, recognizing that seeing truly is enough, in so many of these coversations.  Perhaps you will too.  I hope you enjoy these snippets gleaned from these three days.

    2009.03.10 01:00 - On Silence 

    Scathach Rhiadra: has anyone anything they want to discuss?
    Wester Kiranov: not really, thanks
    Scathach Rhiadra: it is a quiet hour everywhere:)
    Bertrum Quan: yes.
    Bertrum Quan: the nature of silence. that could be a topic to consider.
    Scathach Rhiadra: ha, but we would have to break the silence to discuss it, destroy by analysis:)

    The observation of silence is enough, in fact to go beyond seeing to analysis breaks the silence, destroys the very thing you want to understand.

    Bertrum Quan: I wonder if anywhere in the universe absolute silence exists.
    Wester Kiranov: not in a physical way. But isn't silence the space that sound happens in?
    Bertrum Quan: That's an interesting way to look at it.

    2009.03.10 07:00 - Time goes here

    Riddle Sideways: 30 years ago I started programing operating systems
    Riddle Sideways: I was in charge of producing characters
    Riddle Sideways: I made pixals/dots into the letter A
    Riddle Sideways: then we built more characters
    Riddle Sideways: we put that software into libraries
    Riddle Sideways: so nobody had to write those routines again
    Riddle Sideways: but could use them to build higher forms
    Riddle Sideways: eventually we could build SL
    Riddle Sideways: and I could stand upon SL and chat of things that matter
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Adams Rubble looks at all the characters
    Geo Netizen: Yes ... we encapsulate complexity
    Riddle Sideways: yes, we are all characters
    Adams Rubble: hehe
    Riddle Sideways: yet all same

    Thanks Riddle :)

    2009.03.10 13:00 - Arising and arosing

    Fefonz Quan: maybe observing our responses is the most important tool in understanding who we are
    Fefonz Quan: what make us click

    2009.03.10 19:00 - is God Love?

    Tarmel Udimo: yes 'Being' in love rather than just being in love
    stevenaia Michinaga: smiles, yes, but I see it more as love the projector in an outward way, not "in love" with something
    stevenaia Michinaga: the love that makes someone else smile
    Tarmel Udimo: yes understand I think that's what I mean
    stevenaia Michinaga: the disarming "I love you", not the posessive "I am in love with you"
    stevenaia Michinaga: the love that lets the bird out of the cage to fly freely
    Tarmel Udimo: yes, or for that matter 'loving you':-)
    Tarmel Udimo: no 'I' involved
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods
    Tarmel Udimo: or just 'loving'
    Tarmel Udimo: but it is fun to say 'I love you'
    stevenaia Michinaga: hard to say that w/o smiling
    Tarmel Udimo: yes

      Pila shares different ways of "seeing"  (Taoist and Buddhist v. Hindu)

    Pila Mulligan: so Chinese philosophers said lets contemplate all of reality
    Pila Mulligan: evertything that is
    Pila Mulligan: and they symbolized it with an empty circle they called wu chi
    Tarmel Udimo: okay
    Pila Mulligan: and in the highest state of consciousness one simply sees all that is
    Pila Mulligan: exactly as it is
    Pila Mulligan: and that is the ulitmate reality
    Pila Mulligan: undistorted perception of all that is
    Pila Mulligan: but the mind is a greedy bugger, and busy
    Pila Mulligan: and the mind likes to do things, name things, rationalize
    Tarmel Udimo: okay
    Pila Mulligan: so we need to feed the mind with more ideas
    Pila Mulligan: and so they took a line and divided the circle called wu chi with a line calle tai chu tu
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Pila Mulligan: the division created two parts that they called yin and yang
    Pila Mulligan: and from yin and yang they described everything the mind wanted, in words and concepts
    Pila Mulligan: but behind it all is simply the undivided whole of reality -- wu chi in Chinese


    Pila Mulligan: here is a story

    Pila Mulligan: it is about a sadhu and a boddhisatva
    Tarmel Udimo: okay
    Pila Mulligan: it illustrates the difference between those words
    Pila Mulligan: a sadhu is a Hindu term for an enlightned being
    Pila Mulligan: bodhisatva is a buddhist term for an enlightened being
    Pila Mulligan: these two are crossing the desert
    Pila Mulligan: they get lost
    Pila Mulligan: it is very hot and they think they will die
    Pila Mulligan: they are crawling along and they see a mirage
    Pila Mulligan: but as they approach it they realize it is actually an oasis
    Pila Mulligan: surrouonded by a wall
    Pila Mulligan: they climb up to the top of the wall
    Pila Mulligan: inside is a beautiful place, ponds, trees, birds a very nice location
    Pila Mulligan: the sadhu climbs down inside the wall
    Pila Mulligan: the bodhisatva climbs down outside to go out to the desert to tell others that it is there
    Tarmel Udimo: nice story pila
    Pila Mulligan: that shows the difference between those words
    Pila Mulligan: but they both saw the same thiing
    Pila Mulligan: and the idea of bringing others there is close to the idea of affirming reality
    Tarmel Udimo: ahhhh

    2009.03.11 13:00 - Anyone I Can't See Yet

    Pema Pera: so yes Wester, time space knowledge: here is everywhere, now is everywhen, me is everybody -- but that can be very misleading when said so succinctly; alternative and more precise formulation: no duration, no separation, no self
    Wester Kiranov: wow

    2009.03.12 01:00 - Inner Peace and PaB

    Bertrum Quan: How did the pheono exercises trigger a crisis?
    Tarmel Udimo: i was already heading that way, always asking why.... I can get a bit manic around why Being is Being???? For which there is no answer of course, except perhaps that Being can and enjoys the play of it all
    Tarmel Udimo: and some of the exercises kept taking me to a place where I only saw the emptiness, the meaninglessness of it all
    Tarmel Udimo: not a good seeing:-)
    Bertrum Quan: That's very powerful to feel... see...


    Bertrum Quan: But every morning and evening you do a longer meditation?
    Tarmel Udimo: no, 5-15mins
    Tarmel Udimo: and often not sure what they are
    Tarmel Udimo: i am realizing more and more that it is intention that is important
    Tarmel Udimo: the intention to sit and doing it
    Tarmel Udimo: of course there are some mornings I am running late and don't, there are some eveings I am buggered and don't but I ignore whether I have or not and just keep doing it
    Tarmel Udimo: I think this principle can be used with the 9-secs as well:-)
    Bertrum Quan: Yes, there are many paths.
    Tarmel Udimo: yes I no longer even try to be on a path and just do:-)

    2009.03.12 13:00 - Dialogue Fefonz-Pema #2: YSBS 

    Wol Euler: I have been ignoroing a problem for some 18 months now, which is growing larger and uglier as I ignore it. The longer I leave it, the less able to deal with it I feel.
    Mickorod Renard: lol,,whats that?
    Wol Euler: it seems quite hopeless sometimes, when I am being me. Just don't know where to start, cannot see any point where I might grasp it in order to begin.
    Wol Euler: Not-me looked at it and saw clearly how I might begin to fix it.
    Wol Euler: calmly and without any of the angst and fear and frustration that "I" feel when thinking about it.
    Wol Euler: Maybe I can do this now.
    Fefonz Quan: remarkable, thanks for sharing that wol
    Wol Euler smiles
    Pema Pera: that's really wonderful, Wol, and thank you so much for sharing that with us
    Pema Pera: must not be easy to talk about . . .


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