2009.04.03 13:00 - Dealing with emotions

Wol Euler was guardian and commenter for this session, filling for Solobill.

Wol Euler: quilty! hooray
Wol Euler: hello pema, qt
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Wol and Pema
Qt Core: hi wol, hi all
Pema Pera: Hi Wol, Quilty, Qt!
Wol Euler: looks like I missed a good party at 7pm on the First :)
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Qt
Wol Euler: helo fael
Quilty Bookmite: Hi again Fael.
Fael Illyar: Ho Wol, Pema, Qt, Quilty :)
Wol Euler: hello Buddha
Quilty Bookmite: Hi buddha.
Fael Illyar: Hi buddha :)
Pema Pera: yes, indeed, Wol, we had fun at that last party!
buddha Nirvana: Hi wol, fael, quilty, pema, qt :)
Wol Euler: it was a mistake to rely on my alarm click, I should just have stayed awake
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: Hi Mick!
Wol Euler: hello mick
Mickorod Renard: hiya folks
Fael Illyar smiles.
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Mick.
Fael Illyar: Hi Mick :)
buddha Nirvana: Hi mick:)
Quilty Bookmite: Does the autologger work now?
Wol Euler: yep :)
Quilty Bookmite: Cool! Well done!
Mickorod Renard: Hi Fael, QUIL,Buddha
Wol Euler: when were you last here? I can't remember. A few months now?
Fael Illyar smiles.
Fael Illyar: Hi Fefonz :)
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Fef
Quilty Bookmite: I haven't been here since new year.
Fefonz Quan: Hello all :)
Pema Pera: wb, Quilty!
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: well we have a new fractal decoration here :)
Quilty Bookmite: For anyone who doesn't know, I'm now the proud father of a secondchild.
Pema Pera: congratulations, Quilty!
Fefonz Quan: congratulations!
Wol Euler cheeers
Quilty Bookmite: Thanks. :-)
Mickorod Renard: wow,,congrats
Fael Illyar: Hi Scath :)
Quilty Bookmite: A boy.
Pema Pera: Hi Scathach!
Mickorod Renard: Hi Scath
Qt Core: congratulations
Wol Euler: hello scath
Fefonz Quan: hi Scathach
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Scathach
buddha Nirvana: hi fefonz:)
Random Visitor: ??????
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello all:)
Mickorod Renard: how come you have time to come on sl then? he he he
buddha Nirvana: hi scath, Random :)
Random Visitor: some sort of yoga?
Fael Illyar: Hello Random :)
Random Visitor: uh hello
Mickorod Renard: Hi Random
Quilty Bookmite: First time I have done this in 4 months. :-) Both children are asleep.
Wol Euler: have a seat, Random, join us.
Quilty Bookmite: Sorry, only 3months Seems longer.
Random Visitor: but what is this that ill be joining
Wol Euler: heheheh
Mickorod Renard: yeaa,,best part of havin kids..grin
Wol Euler: it'S the sleep deprivation
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Random.
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, when did the floor covering appear:)
Fefonz Quan: in no-time Scath ;-)
Quilty Bookmite: Sleep?I remember that!
Wol Euler: heheheh
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Random Visitor: zzzzzz
Random Visitor: boring..
Pema Pera: Random, we get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?

Too late, Pema! He had been ejected long before you finished your sentence.

Pema Pera: Scathach, as for the floor covering, that was a mistake
Mickorod Renard: mine is 15 now,,more trouble now than he ever was
Pema Pera: someone during the party "dropped" a texture on the floor, replacing the original
Pema Pera: Storm is looking into it
Scathach Rhiadra: its very nice though:)
Pema Pera: hmmm, it swamps the cushions a bit . . .
Wol Euler: I thought it was festive, intentional
Pema Pera: :-)
Quilty Bookmite: Looking forward to the teen years Mick. :-)
Fefonz Quan: if it would be a real time view from above of teh pavilion, it would become more interesting fractal-wise...
Mickorod Renard: yikes,,I love bein a parent
Fael Illyar: Yes, realtime would look nicer but that's a tad difficult to implement in SL :)

Pema introduces the topic that would occupy us for the rest of the afternoon.

Pema Pera: Adams visited Fefonz and me in Princeton, over lunch
Wol Euler: nice :)
Pema Pera: we had fun talking about many topics, including "seeing is enough"
Mickorod Renard: cool
Fael Illyar sometimes feels like it'd be nice to go for another visit.
Quilty Bookmite: I'm way behind. Not heard of "seeing is enough".
Pema Pera: Seeing_is_Enough 
Pema Pera: all of you are welcome to drop by :-)
Wol Euler: the whole Scribe project may be new to you actually, Quilty, and the Chronicles.
Pema Pera: We haven't acronied it yet, I guess it would be SIE or SE :-)
Pema Pera: it is something Stim said during one of the chat logs
Fael Illyar: Not quite a one day trip for me :)
Pema Pera: and then Gen made a whole scribe entry out of it
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: So one of the ways Adams and I talked about it, before lunch already is in the context of yet another thing Stim said
Pema Pera: "each moment, we have a choice: hook into a more negative or a more positive attitude/energy"
Pema Pera: so applying "seeing is enough there" could mean :
Fefonz Quan argues differently....
Pema Pera: once you see, at any given moment, that you have that choice, between a more positive or a more negative energy
Pema Pera: then it is easy to choose the more positive one
Wol Euler nods
Pema Pera: the challenge is to really see
Pema Pera: we so often gloss over this seeing, and then we get in trouble
Qt Core: yes, how to recognize the good one
Quilty Bookmite: Is it really always so black and white?
Qt Core: ?
Pema Pera: not necessarily
Fael Illyar: well, better black and white than just black :)
Pema Pera: but if we really look, we have choices each moment
Quilty Bookmite: True Fael, but it is also dualism.
Fefonz Quan: sometimes lifting the dark seems like a very heavy task
Pema Pera: distinguishing between options is fine, there is nothing wrong with that kind of dualism
Fael Illyar: Fefonz, yes, you need to want to do it. Going against your own wants feel heavy.
Pema Pera: but there seeing can help
Pema Pera: real seeing lifts the heaviness
Quilty Bookmite: Do go on Pema. I'm jumping in too quickly.
Pema Pera: no please, I'm done :-)
Pema Pera: (for now, hehe)
Fael Illyar: mostly the key is in seeing that you have a choice :)
Fefonz Quan: i feel sometimes emotions are like waves flowing over you
Pema Pera: yes, Fael!
buddha Nirvana: Does anyone have a particular technique for observing reality 'as it is'?
Fael Illyar: emotions are something that just is.
Fefonz Quan: you can let them pass, but not avoid them
Pema Pera: we have a few, Buddha
Pema Pera: like "dropping, stopping, seeing/appreciating"
Pema Pera: as general hints for the 9 seconds pauses
Pema Pera: for example
Fefonz Quan: DSSA :)
Fael Illyar: what you can choose is which emotion to strengthen :)
buddha Nirvana: sure
Fael Illyar: once you can see the choice
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Zen
Pema Pera: "appreciating the presence of appearance" is another, as is "seeing is enough"
Quilty Bookmite: Hi Zen.
Wol Euler: hello zen
Pema Pera: hi there Zen!
Fefonz Quan: but fael, what if the major one is the one you don't want to strangthen?
Zen Arado: HI evryone
buddha Nirvana: once the choices have been realised, are we not too late to have observed the reality as it was/is?
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Zen
Fael Illyar: well, then yo strengthen something else :)
Pema Pera: seeing has to be immediate, Buddha, not a later analysis
Fael Illyar: and stop strengthening the major one
Fael Illyar: (if you were doing it)
buddha Nirvana: for sure pema

Fefonz disagrees.

Fefonz Quan: well i claim this is an almost impossible task Fael
Pema Pera: that kind of seeing is not too late
Wol Euler: could you expand on that, fefonz?
Fael Illyar: it's kind of like driving your car to a dead end. Eventually you learn to spot them in advance and avoid them completely :)
Quilty Bookmite: What makes it impossible Fefonz?
Fefonz Quan: yes, that's nice and i agree Fael, but before 'eventually' comes...
Fael Illyar: until you do, you first drive it there, then drive back and take the right turn.
Fael Illyar: (there being the dead end)

Dealing with anger.

Fefonz Quan: lets take anger for example.
Mickorod Renard: the dead end could still be an experience
Fefonz Quan: i feel that in some places, when it is triggered, it is like somebody kicked you in the knee
Quilty Bookmite: BRB
Fael Illyar: Yes, that's when you don't see the choice that leads to anger growing.
Fael Illyar: it just takes you by surprise that you hit the dead end called anger this time.
Wol Euler: agreed, I think that anger is already a reaction; the choice was already made
Fefonz Quan: So when kicked in teh knee, there is no stopping of the pain flowing in your body.
Fefonz Quan: maybe Wol.
Quilty Bookmite: I remember a few discussions here on anger. They got quite lively. :-)
Wol Euler: you feel pain, sure; but how you react to it is up to you.
Fefonz Quan: but once it is their, you can't dodge it
Fefonz Quan: in pain i totaly agree.
Pema Pera: and how you react depends on what you "see"
Quilty Bookmite: Are you talking about your own choice to be angry fefonz?
Mickorod Renard: maybe it can be seen as a challenge?
Wol Euler nods
Mickorod Renard: or a test
Zen Arado: but maybe you were already programmed to react the way you did
Fefonz Quan: well sometimes it happens as fast as teh kick, choise made almost spontaneously
Fefonz Quan: Sure Mick, we talk about that challenge now
Scathach Rhiadra: but if you can see that your are consumed with anger, that is enough, you have loosened its hold that much to see
Quilty Bookmite: Yes, anger isn't something we just consciously decide to do. I think it's almost always spontaneous.
Fael Illyar: Fefonz, the choice, in that case is to believe "he shouldn't have done that".
Fefonz Quan: yes, but seeing you are consumed won't make it go away Scath
Mickorod Renard: I am not immune to what you are saying Fef,,,but I am becoming more ,,interested in the challenges
buddha Nirvana: we are perhaps conditioned to chose certain emotions, over others
Fefonz Quan nods to Buddha
Fael Illyar: if you believe it, your get angry. If you don't, you don't get angry
Scathach Rhiadra: true, but you can see recognise it exists at least
Pema Pera: seeing may not make it go away, Fef, but it may change the way you hang on to it -- those are two very different things!
buddha Nirvana: i think thats why we observe reality as it is, to break this reflex action
Fefonz Quan: i agree with pema.
Pema Pera: you can stay with it, sit with it
Pema Pera: yes, Buddha
Quilty Bookmite: It seems obvious that anger is a negative state, but the question is how can we be conscious of it, take a step back and decide to do something more positive?
Fefonz Quan: i can stay with it, though some might claim that expressing it in a non-harming manner is more healthy
Wol Euler: yes :)
Pema Pera: just seeing it may be enough, Quilty :)
Zen Arado: just seeing it wears it out I think
Quilty Bookmite: Indeed buddha. Turning the wheel in the opposite direction. :-)
Pema Pera: that is a sign that it is not really seeing, Zen
buddha Nirvana: sorry 'break' is slightly vague - to become less 'reactive'
Pema Pera: you can then watch/see the wearing out
Quilty Bookmite: Anger can cloud your seeing. You need to develop a reflex to stop and think.
Pema Pera: the challenge is to go deeper and deeper into seeing
Pema Pera: and to see where we go wrong there
Mickorod Renard: making time to look at it rationally is something that is a challenge
Fefonz Quan: i agree, you can watch the wave come, though it wouldn't get you un-wet ;-)
Pema Pera: not necessarily, Fefonz
Fael Illyar: anger is the reaction that is born when we see something that is not the way we think it should be. The actions we take from anger are always aimed at making things be the way we think they should be. We're just often hasty when that happens and what we do makes it worse.
Quilty Bookmite: I thimk it's almost impossible to stop the wave coming but you can choose to stay in it or swim away.
Qt Core: or we can redirect it elsewhere
Fefonz Quan: i totally agree fael about the actions, i am talking now about the feeling, even when no action is taken
Fael Illyar: when you can see that what you're about to do, from anger, won't help, it'll melt away or go into more useful direction.

 Surfing the emotional wave.

Pema Pera: if I can give an example to Fefonz's wave: if you have a nasty argument with a friend or spouse or colleague, it is possible to suddenly see how silly it all is, and laugh about it -- then you won't get wet anymore
buddha Nirvana: yes, the mind is layered with waves, there already there - as a reesult of previous re'actions'
Mickorod Renard: I aggree with fael,,sometimes its a result of our controlling ways too
Zen Arado: that souns a bit too analytic to me Pera
Wol Euler nods to Pema.
Fefonz Quan: "[13:39] Fael Illyar: when you can see that what you're about to do, from anger, won't help, it'll melt away or go into more useful direction."
Pema Pera: I'm speaking from experience, Zen
Fefonz Quan: proved wrong experimentally, sorry to say
Zen Arado: me too :)
Wol Euler: I disagree Fefonz. My experience is the same as Pema's. I have been able to say "It is silly being angry, I will not do that" and turn the emotion off
Pema Pera: it is possible, doesn't always work of course :)
Zen Arado: if I sit with jealoue feelings my mind eventually gets bored with them
Fael Illyar: Fefonz, no it's not. It only proves you don't see it won't help.
Fefonz Quan: sure pema about your example, but that is an easy intelectual exercise
Pema Pera: not intellectual at all, Fefonz!
Quilty Bookmite: Sorry, I need to go. My first return has to be a short one. I'll be back intermittently.
Pema Pera: I've done it in very emotional situations
Pema Pera: bye Quilty!
Wol Euler: bye quilty, take care.
Fefonz Quan: what wont help fael?
Pema Pera: and the effect is really amazing and complete
Quilty Bookmite: Bye al/
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Quilty
Fael Illyar: See you later Quilty
Mickorod Renard: aggression only breads aggression,,jealousy bitterness
Pema Pera: like puncturing a balloon
Mickorod Renard: bye Quil
Fefonz Quan: (i find it difficult to react to all of you at once :)
Fael Illyar finds it difficult too.
Wol Euler smiles and makes shushing gestures. Take us one at a time, then :)
Mickorod Renard: I have not mastered what I am saying Fef
Mickorod Renard: but my anger has never resolved anything
Fael Illyar: well, mostly, anger always has a purpose. See this purpose and you already have a much better handle on the situation.
Zen Arado: everything has a purpose or nothing has a purpose
Fefonz Quan: i agree Mick, but that is not the point of my question. our emotional reaction many times don't have good results.
Zen Arado: teleological thinking?
Fefonz Quan: Fael, if anger have a purpose for you, we can take other feeling for example...
Zen Arado: reality just is ?
Fael Illyar: emotional reactions based on falsehoods, however, do not serve their purpose.
Fael Illyar: which is most often the case
Fefonz Quan: my point is that until certain practice kicks in, stil the emotion will arise
Fael Illyar: Yes, I agree.
Wol Euler: yes of course.
Fefonz Quan: emotional reactions can be based on hormones also fael, with no purpose
Zen Arado: emotions only follow thoughts though
Fefonz Quan: (for man too, just to make it clear)
Fael Illyar wonders if Fefonz names more things emotions that she does...
Mickorod Renard: there is a posibility to become more flexible
Fefonz Quan: emotions can also follow sensations Zen, not just thoughts
Fael Illyar: the chain is always sensation -> thought (even wordless one, nonconscious one) -> emotion
Fefonz Quan: Fael: emotions: anger, sadness, joy comfortness, up, down :)
Wol Euler: strange, charmed
Fael Illyar: or perhaps you could even go as far as to say thoughts are emotions.
Zen Arado: yes but if you cut the chain at the thought level
Fefonz Quan: hehe Wol,
Zen Arado: by seeing through them
Zen Arado: emotons are bodily reaction I thought
Fefonz Quan: maybe Zen, but i try to talk about situations where the thoughts are so quick, the emotion comes in no time
Zen Arado: a feeling
Fefonz Quan: body reactions, yes

 Are we talking about emotions, or about dealing with them?

Wol Euler: I wonder if we are talking somewhat across each other. I don't think Pema meant that he never experiences emotions, I certainly didn't mean that. The point is what comes after the emotion, what you do about it.
Pema Pera: yes
Fael Illyar: myself, I find I must first experience the dead end (the emotion, for example, anger) before I can start figuring out where the right turn would've been.
Mickorod Renard: I am not ancient,,but have many experiences from many years,,including much frustration and anger at times,,,but i have been able to look back and have seen some things that were great frustrations are part of a bigger plan
Fefonz Quan: Going with Wol, so lets take it slowly
Wol Euler: having seem that you are angry/jealous/sad/comfortable/charmed, you can then decide what to do about it.
Fefonz Quan: i agree.
Wol Euler: "Am I actually content to be angry here and now?" Because it's up to you.
Wol Euler: You can decide not to be.
Pema Pera: yes
Fefonz Quan: totally agree about the actions.
Pema Pera: or even not decide
Zen Arado: yes but I think you have to do something with thoughts
Pema Pera: just seeing may really be enough!
Zen Arado: prevention of the a ger
Wol Euler: or you can say "yes, my anger is fully justified and I will let it out" :)
Fefonz Quan: SO let's say i am in a great position, when i can easily see the anger and do nothing harmful with it
Zen Arado: I think venting is counterproductive
Wol Euler: the point is: it's up to you.
Zen Arado: just reinforces it
Wol Euler: (agreed, zen)
Fefonz Quan: NO, it is up to me not to DO nothing, we already agreed about that

Cycles.

Wol Euler: negative energy forms a cycle that feeds itself
Zen Arado: agree Wol
Mickorod Renard: I use a stash of sayings,,like c'est la vie,or ,,say sera sera
Fefonz Quan: but the anger energy itself, even if i dont do anything with it, is harmful.
Zen Arado: it is good to do vipassana type meditatin
Zen Arado: just notice the feeling
Zen Arado: where in the body it is
Wol Euler: Fefonz, I can tell you from personal experience that it is possible to make anger go away, at least sometimes, in some situations.
Fefonz Quan: i also agree with Zen about it, just try to do it during a conversation :)
Zen Arado: it is thoughts that magnify the feeling
Fefonz Quan: and how Wol?
Zen Arado: takes practice
Pema Pera is quietly slipping away, to go to the phenomenology meeting in a few minutes -- glad to talk with all of you!
Fefonz Quan: bye Pema
Zen Arado: bye Pema
Wol Euler: well, I can tell you an example fro last month but it'll take quite a few words:)
buddha Nirvana: me too, thanks all
Wol Euler: bye pema
Mickorod Renard: c u soon Pema
Wol Euler: and bye buddha, take care
Mickorod Renard: bye bud
Scathach Rhiadra: bye buddha
Fefonz Quan: bye buddha
Zen Arado: bye Buddha
Fefonz Quan can take a few words :)
Fael Illyar: I've often resolved anger by having the thought "It's not worth it to waste my time on this".
Wol Euler: exactly :)
Fael Illyar: or in other words, give up on trying to right the wrong.
Mickorod Renard: Fef,,u are like me,,a fighter inside
Zen Arado: reprogramming yourself?

A practical real-life example.

Wol Euler: OK, so recently I was in Zurich train station waiting for the last train of the day that would get me home
Fefonz Quan: Fael, on one level i agreee, i try to describe a situation where it doesn't help
Wol Euler: sign on the board said "wait here", instead of saying which platform it would be on
Fefonz Quan: please go on Wol
Mickorod Renard: yes
Wol Euler: so a group of Germans and myself stood there and waited.
Fael Illyar: another way I've used is recognising that there is no way I can do anything about the wrong.
Wol Euler: and waited and waited and waited and waited.
Fael Illyar: and then giving up
Wol Euler: then the train disappeared fro the board!
Mickorod Renard: yikes
Wol Euler: no announcement, just gone.
Fefonz Quan: ahh,
Zen Arado: annoying for sure
Wol Euler: so we went to teh Information booth, where the lady told us basically that it was our own fault that we missed the train that wasn't there.
Wol Euler: that was when I started getting angry.
Fefonz Quan: yes.
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Zen Arado: isn't there an underlying anger that life shouldn't be this way ?
Mickorod Renard: ok,,phenem,,bye all thanks
Wol Euler: but I was able to "stop and see", and realized that being angry at her wasn't going to get me home
Fefonz Quan: bye mick
Fael Illyar: See you later Mick :)
Wol Euler: (bye mick, take care)
Zen Arado: bye Mick
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Mick
Wol Euler: and also that it wasn't her fault that the train wasn't there.
Qt Core: bye Mick
Mickorod Renard: Wol,,did u end up meeting a handsome german chap and so forth?
Zen Arado: I must go too
Scathach Rhiadra: and you could just let the anger go
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: yep
Zen Arado: bye :)
Fefonz Quan: yes Wol, i see your point, and i also identify with it. in fact i may say i am quite good with that kind of situations
Wol Euler: it simply evaporated
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Mickorod Renard: there u go..;)
Wol Euler: I decided to see this as an adventure!
Fefonz Quan: (got to a kong-fu class last week to find it was cancelled)
Mickorod Renard: thats just what I do now
Wol Euler: "oh boy, I get a few extra hours in Zurich!"
Fefonz Quan: so i enjoyed the sunny 30 min ride back home :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Wol Euler: right.
Fael Illyar: For situations where it's not that simple, try to find out what is preventing you from giving up.
Wol Euler: it's all about your attitude.
Wol Euler: and the thing is, fefonz, that my attitude influenced the rest.
Scathach Rhiadra: have to go to Kira, bye all, Namasté
Fael Illyar: (but that can often only be done after it has happened)
Wol Euler: everyone else calmed down too.
Fefonz Quan: so it will help us focus on my point:
Wol Euler: bye scath, take are
Fefonz Quan: bye scath
Fael Illyar: Wol, I'd say you put down the anger of all of you in the group :)
Wol Euler: yep :)
Fael Illyar: or evaporated
Fefonz Quan: i talk about (wht i see) is a very different situatin
Fael Illyar: (and perhaps that none of it was yours to begin with)
Qt Core: have to logoff, bye all
Fefonz Quan: bye Qt
Fael Illyar: See you later Qt :)
Wol Euler: bye qt, take care

Is "for no reason" really the reason?

Wol Euler: what do you see as being different, fefonz?
Fefonz Quan: i am talking about cases, that mostly involve 'bad days' or some pre-aggitated mood.
Fael Illyar: Ah, cases where you're just looking for suitable targets to vent your anger at?
Fefonz Quan: in those cases, when something happens that annoys me, i can SEE that this is BS
Fael Illyar: Hi Myna :)
Fefonz Quan: i TOTALLY KNOW that i have no reason to get upset, and i can tell in words all about it,
Wol Euler: hello myna
Wol Euler smiles. But?
Fefonz Quan: so in the intelevctual level i know it all,
Myna Maven: Hey. I'm heading over to the pheno workshop.
Wol Euler grins. have fun!
Fefonz Quan: yet the wave of emotion keeps flowing, without been able to stop it.
Fael Illyar: Ok, see you later Myna :)
Myna Maven: :) Thanks. See you later.
Fefonz Quan: bye myna
Wol Euler shrugs and smiles. I didn't say it _always_ works, Fefonz :)
Fael Illyar: Fefonz, sounds like those are caused by a "it shouldn't be this way" that you're not aware of.
Fefonz Quan: it's like watching from outside on a character in the movie, and trying to shout to them - don't entere that room!
Fael Illyar: or... perhaps being angry about being angry
Fefonz Quan: but halas, no effect on the figure :)
Fael Illyar: which will increase the anger to the point where you just have to vent somewhere.
Fefonz Quan: not exactly fael, it is "it should be this way, and you are angry about silly silly stuff", but that doesn't help
Wol Euler smiles and shrugs again. So perhaps that means that you are still only human, Fefonz?
Wol Euler: not perfect yet :)
Fefonz Quan: who claimed different?
Wol Euler: exactly :)
Fael Illyar: do you think you should not be angry, Fefonz?
Fefonz Quan: i have no problems with just angry, i am taking about when i am angry almost with no reason
Wol Euler: ah
Fefonz Quan: while knowing there is no reason.
Wol Euler: then the reason is not what you think it is.
Fael Illyar: so, you think you shouldn't be angry without a reason?
Fefonz Quan: like it's some hormone/hunger/other bodily function
Wol Euler: like the stories you hear of people married for 52 years and one day the wife murders the husband because he put the mustard on the wrong side of the table
Wol Euler: it's not about hte mustard, it is about what he said 37 years ago.
Fael Illyar: were you aware that thinking "I should not be angry without a reason" will add to the anger?
Fefonz Quan: well, that's a way to say it Wol ;-)
Fefonz Quan: there is some point there Fael, but even without it i feel it is annoying.
Fael Illyar: then it's still there.
Fefonz Quan: it feels like we are automata, puppets
Fael Illyar: aren't we?
Fefonz Quan: i don't know
Fefonz Quan: everybody here tried to convince me it can be controlled :)
Wol Euler: it can sometimes be controlled, in certain moods and circumstances.
Wol Euler: it is always a choice, though.
Fael Illyar: control is the wrong word :)
Fael Illyar: because, anger is what we use for controlling.
Fefonz Quan: yea, i knew that
Wol Euler: but you cannot control (guide, reshape, get beyond...) it if you don't know what the real root cause is
Fefonz Quan: yes, i believe that is the reall issue, the real root
Wol Euler: mmhmm

Puppet on a string…

Fael Illyar: to some degree we are automata.
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
Fefonz Quan: (automatically ;-))
Fael Illyar: but seems to me there's something behind the automata pulling the strings.
Wol Euler: that is also "us" though...
Wol Euler: we are our own puppets
Fael Illyar: perhaps that something is the "real" us :)
Fefonz Quan: puppeteers
Wol Euler: both. The string is actually a loop
Fefonz Quan starts to think Wol is a hidden physicist ;-)
Wol Euler: I raise my hand to pull on the string that raises my hand
Fael Illyar: well, in any case, we can reporgram this automata that we are
Fael Illyar: but only if we can see the program.
Wol Euler: like the little quark joke earlier? :)
Fefonz Quan: yep :)
Wol Euler giggles
Fael Illyar: so, the question here would be, why are you hiding this part of your program from yourself? :)
Fefonz Quan: yes Fael, i also believ ethat seeing the program is a big step
Fefonz Quan: why hiiding?
Fael Illyar: because, otherwise you'd know it. It's there because you've put it there.
Fael Illyar: whatever it is
Fefonz Quan: well, we all have some Karma to purify
Wol Euler: mmm, there is a flavour of causality in that which irritates me. We also inherit stuff from our parents and teachers and lovers ...
Wol Euler: which hangs about getting mouldy, if we don't deal with it properly
Fael Illyar: we might inherit it but we still put it in our program ourselves.
Wol Euler: (amounts to what Fefonz said :)
Fefonz Quan: sure, this is part of what karma is
Fael Illyar: think of your body as your real world avatar :)
Fael Illyar: much more sophisticated than our avatars in SL
Fefonz Quan: good point, my avatar also do things without me controlling it :)
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Fael Illyar: yes, to have it act certain way, you need to know which parameters make it happen
Fefonz Quan: right.
Fefonz Quan: my last point is, that in some contemplative ways, we tend to try not to express our negative feelings
Fefonz Quan: and i somehow believ(paritialy from experience) that expresing tham is a good strategy
Wol Euler: yes that is also true. It's not either/or, life almost never is :)
Fael Illyar: perhaps that "try not to express" is a misunderstanding?
Fael Illyar: perhaps it really means "try not to have them"?
Wol Euler: the point is that it is your choice, you can express (possibly good) or overcome (good) or repress (bad) -- up to you
Fefonz Quan: yes, but my point is aobut the cases when this trial fails in your current level
Fefonz Quan: (to fael)
Wol Euler: sure it fails all the time!
Fefonz Quan: Wol, overcome/repress have very fine line between
Wol Euler: um, no, I disagree.
Fael Illyar: well, those cases can't be helped. They happen, you can only learn from them so you might avoid them.
Wol Euler: repress means not express but still remain angry.
Wol Euler: overcome means cease to be angry.
Wol Euler: (to me)
Fefonz Quan: overcome many times is repress in disguise
Fael Illyar: it can be. Depends on you.
Fael Illyar: I'd not use word overcome for it
Fefonz Quan: i find dissolve a more appropritate term for that
Wol Euler: fair enough
Fefonz Quan: i guess i should dissolve myself elsewhere now :)
Fefonz Quan: thanks you both for this insightful discussion
Fael Illyar: You're welcome :) See you later.
Wol Euler: bye fefonz, thanks for a great disussion
Fefonz Quan: Bye Wol, Fael _/!\_
Fael Illyar waves.
Wol Euler: I shall get to bed earlyish too. Goodnight, Fael.