2009.03.10 13:00 - Arising and arosing

Mickord was the guardian this session

Udge Watanabe: hello corvi, ara, mick
arabella Ella: hiya Udge
Mickorod Renard: with coming to p a b its taking all my spare time up too
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Udge.
Mickorod Renard: hiya udge
arabella Ella: yes b ut P as B is a calming experience I find
Mickorod Renard: you have been here before udge?
Udge Watanabe: oh yse, many times.
arabella Ella: are you in europe too Corv if I may ask?
Mickorod Renard: thought so

Udge Watanabe: I'm a kind of lay member :)
arabella Ella: cool
Mickorod Renard: yea,,seen you around but couldnt remem
Mickorod Renard: from where
Udge Watanabe: this is your first session, Mick?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm in the USA east coast
Udge Watanabe: do I remember that correctly?
Mickorod Renard: yes,,as guardian
arabella Ella: ok cool Corv
Udge Watanabe: (I meant as a guardian :) sorry
Mickorod Renard: its ok,,but I am a lil nervous
Udge Watanabe smiles
Udge Watanabe: rememeber to use the Holy Handgrenade when the killer rabbit comes
arabella Ella: LOL
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya Scath!
arabella Ella: does the killer rabbit have a name?
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I will get it ready
Udge Watanabe: hello scath
arabella Ella: hiya scath!
Mickorod Renard: hiya scath
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello corvi, Udge, Mick, Ara:)
Mickorod Renard: so,,do we need an agenda?
arabella Ella: only if u have one i suppose
Mickorod Renard: or shall I be patient?
arabella Ella: your choice
Mickorod Renard: he he
Mickorod Renard: I was thinking earlier
Udge Watanabe: lead us on to greatness :)
Mickorod Renard: about how emotion is integral to apreciating things
Mickorod Renard: as in arising
Udge Watanabe: hello buddha
arabella Ella: yes like i saw a fantastic full moon tonight
buddha Nirvana: hey :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello buddha
arabella Ella: and decided to see the moon as 'arising'
Mickorod Renard: hiya buddha
buddha Nirvana: hi :)
arabella Ella: and watching the beautiful moon did give rise to some fantastic emotions
arabella Ella: a perfect circular full moon so brilliant and spectacular
Mickorod Renard: yes, I think without something promoting emotion it sort of gets left in the background
arabella Ella: the issue may be ... is it possible for us to perceive or even to think without emotion?
Mickorod Renard: well,,i would say emotion must be on a sliding scale
Mickorod Renard: but the emotion I am thinking of is the sort that stirs oneself
Scathach Rhiadra: or are emotions not arisings, apearances as well
Mickorod Renard: interesting
Mickorod Renard: but many appearances do not stimulate us
Mickorod Renard: so I would think that would not be recognised as an arising,,in my opinion
Mickorod Renard: have you an example?
Mickorod Renard: Scath?
Scathach Rhiadra: sorry,...
Mickorod Renard: grin
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hi fefonz!
Udge Watanabe: hello fefonz
Mickorod Renard: hi fefonz
arabella Ella: hiya Fefonz
Scathach Rhiadra: if all is appearances, then must not that include all that arises including emotions, even the 'appreciating' must be an appearance
Fefonz Quan: Hello everyone :0
Fefonz Quan: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: just thinking this through now:)
Fefonz Quan: good point Scath...
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
arabella Ella: i wonder whether we could apply the experiment on 'arising' to emotions themselves
Mickorod Renard: yea,,but we are conditioned to not take notice of much
arabella Ella: to see emotions as 'arising' too
Fefonz Quan: surely emotions are appearances too
Mickorod Renard: thus,,only those that stir emotions are noticed to the point of becoming arisings?
arabella Ella: yes they could be appearances too but could we see emotions as 'arising' too i wonder
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, maybe that is where 'the biggie' as Tarmel calls it comes in, seeing the self as arising..
Fefonz Quan: sure, why not? i fact i find it easier with emotions than with a table
Mickorod Renard: I think emotions are arisings
Fefonz Quan: (to Ara)
arabella Ella: yes ... cool ... i gotta give that a go too
Mickorod Renard: but I wonder whether its essensial to have an emotion on an appearance for it to count as an arising?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: surely not!
Mickorod Renard: soz bout spelling
Fefonz Quan: nope
Scathach Rhiadra: agree with Corvi:)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: surely..the table arises as an appearance whether i care or not?
arabella Ella: i dont think it should be 'essential' ... maybe yes maybe no
arabella Ella: but some 'arisings' involve emotion too
arabella Ella: like the full moon for me tonite
Corvuscorva Nightfire: of course..but it's not necessary to arising...
Mickorod Renard: ok,,well in that case..I must think of all things I see as arrisings?
arabella Ella: exactly ... not necessary ... but not impossible
Udge Watanabe: Mick, I am confused. Your phrasing of "have an emotion on an appearance for it to count as an arising" suggests that these are two separate things for you?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: i can notice that table without giving it any emotional content?
Fefonz Quan: i guess so Corvi
Udge Watanabe: apparance ad arising, I mean
Mickorod Renard: yes,,but isnt it an aspect of arising that it should mean something to the seeing
Fefonz Quan: why Mick?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it means table.
Fefonz Quan: or color, shape, structure, etc.
Fefonz Quan: all arising in our consciousness
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ooo..better than my formulation, Fefonz
Mickorod Renard: yes,,but then we have noticed it
Fefonz Quan: if not noticable, how can it appear Mick?
Mickorod Renard: he he he ,,I have talked myself into a corner
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: perhaps the confusion is interpretation vs emotion?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: maybe they are seperate things?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but related?
Udge Watanabe: if Pema were here, he'd say something like "let's take a step back and slow down" :)
Fefonz Quan: many times emotions are kind of spontaneous interpretations
Udge Watanabe: and talk about terms. Do we all mean the same thing with "arising"?
arabella Ella smiles
Fefonz Quan nods to Udge :)
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Mickorod Renard: well,,its been a point of learning what arising is
Udge Watanabe: it feels as though Mick is giving it more weight than Fef or Corvi have done
Fefonz Quan wonders who will jump first to the cold water of definitions :)
Udge Watanabe: :)
arabella Ella: i expect for some of us especially those of us with less experience arisings are more likely to carry emotional content too ... but dont necessarily have to do so
Mickorod Renard: most of the time I have been looking for a more complicated answer
arabella Ella: with experience i expect it becomes likely that emotion can more easily be controlled
Corvuscorva Nightfire: or...left out
Corvuscorva Nightfire: not controlled...
arabella Ella: yes
Corvuscorva Nightfire: just not brought to the table?
Mickorod Renard: generally we relate arrising to something that has touched us more deeply..or we have looked at more intently
Udge Watanabe: so it is a special case for you, Mick, because of its emotional content?
Mickorod Renard: hi tory
Fefonz Quan: i didn't know it Mick, maybe i should open dictionary, this is not a term i know from daily life
arabella Ella: but ... for those of us like me who are still novices at this ... emotions often cloud our perceptions ... and i think it takes time training and experience to leave emotions out of our experience of arisings
Mickorod Renard: I am not sure swimming in the pool is in club rules?

Fefonz Quan: why do we see hear emotions as different from other experiences?
Fefonz Quan: here*
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, for me all that we perceive are arisings in our consciousness/mind
Fefonz Quan: yes, Scath
w Udge Watanabe: right, that is the difference that I felt. Mick gives it much more weight and specialness than you two do
Fefonz Quan: shapes, thoughts, emotions, body senses - all appearances

Scathach Rhiadra: and 'all' that ee perceive includes everything, images, sounds, thoughts, emotions...
Mickorod Renard: so is that not needed udge?
arabella Ella: yes
Udge Watanabe: perhaps; but it is a difference that seems to me to be causing some crossed wires
Udge Watanabe: not right or wrong, just different.
Fefonz Quan: yes udge.

arabella Ella: could you help to untangle the crossed wires Udge?
Udge Watanabe: well :)
Udge Watanabe points to my group title.
Mickorod Renard: I am im..ong now
Udge Watanabe: Bear in mind that I am a warthog and not a philosopher or a buddhist :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
arabella Ella: no worries but your opinion is also just as valuable as is everyone elses
Corvuscorva Nightfire: you are a good observer, though Udge.
arabella Ella: yes
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Corvuscorva Nightfire: and a great detangeler.
Udge Watanabe: Mick seems to be using "arising" for the heightened emotional impact of particular appearances, events ...
Udge Watanabe: arising in the sense then of becoming particularly significant to him
Udge Watanabe: entering his perception
Udge Watanabe: whereas I think Scath and Fefonz were using it in a more "physical" way, simply what happens when appearance appears.
Fefonz Quan: arising:1. to come into being: the opportunity for action did not arise 2. to come into notice: people can seek answers to their problems as and when they arise 3. arise from to happen as a result of 4. Old-fashioned to get or stand up [Old English ārīsan]
Udge Watanabe: arising in hte sense that water vapour builds up to clouds
Udge Watanabe: Mick's arising is internal, yours is external
Mickorod Renard: hold on,,I need to catch up
Fefonz Quan: well, entering a perception sounds solid to me
Fefonz Quan: without the "particularly" part
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm. not quite, both external and internal are arisings
Fefonz Quan nods
Udge Watanabe: Mick, how does that sound to you?
Scathach Rhiadra: thoughts, emotions are internal but arisings as well
Mickorod Renard: phew,,just cought up on chat
arabella Ella: yes i expect my emotions for another person could be an experience of arising too
Mickorod Renard: well,,I can see the two interpretations
Fefonz Quan: i think this is a most important point Scath, when we look at appearances we do not define between internal and external
Mickorod Renard: and the validity
arabella Ella: yes the internal and external aspects of arising are very interesting i agree
Fefonz Quan: (because if we would, we define the "self" border, which we don;t want to do
arabella Ella nods
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Fefonz Quan: buddhism define teh Mind as teh sixth sense
Fefonz Quan: while the eye sense images, teh ear sounds etc., teh mind sense thought, emotions etc.
Fefonz Quan: but just as another sense, on teh same level as others
Fefonz Quan: the* the* the* :)
arabella Ella: yes or smell or touch
Mickorod Renard: you must excuse my lapse in chat as i am busy in doin the guardian stuf..he he
Fefonz Quan: sorry for asking, but what stuff is ther to do now? ;-)
Mickorod Renard: dont embarrass me Fef
Mickorod Renard: grin
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Udge Watanabe: it's OK, Mick, you are doing well.
Fefonz Quan suspect he might find there are more task than he is aware of :)
arabella Ella: reflection perhaps on how emotions invade our experience of arising?
Mickorod Renard: and my spelling ,,ouch
Mickorod Renard: do you think invade is the word?..i think they aluminate them
Udge Watanabe: my emotions do sometimes seem to capture my awareness :)
Fefonz Quan: they invade as much as the sun light invade the table we see
arabella Ella: but Fefonz you have more experience don't you
Mickorod Renard: we can attach a flavour or an identity to them
Fefonz Quan: i;m not sure experience have to do with it
arabella Ella: it takes time practice and experience to get to the stage where you are
arabella Ella: and patience too
Fefonz Quan: not at all, so i ws misunderstood i guess
Udge Watanabe nods. that is what I meant, I lack the practice in not becoming overwrought :)
Udge Watanabe: (double negative, sorry fef :)
arabella Ella: apologies if i have misunderstood
Fefonz Quan: not at all. i just say that if we see a table - this is appearance,
Fefonz Quan: if we feel strongly towards it - that 's an appearance
Fefonz Quan: if it reminds us of our beloved ones - that memory is an appearance
Fefonz Quan: and if we are overwhelmed by emotin - that emotion is an appearance
Mickorod Renard: but if we feel strongly for the table then its attracted an emotion?
Fefonz Quan: yes, appearances can seem causal. if a stone hit the table and caused it to move -
Fefonz Quan: so one appearances created another
Mickorod Renard: I think the heart of my puzzlement is: can we have an arising without noticing it ,,much
Mickorod Renard: not well phrased but u know what i mean
Mickorod Renard: like for eg,,we let things pass all day without taking much notice
Fefonz Quan: So i guess that were not appearing to us at all, but where are the emotions coming in?
Fefonz Quan: they*
Mickorod Renard: as soon as you register something,,it becomes an arising,,but by that time its been alocated an emotion
Fefonz Quan: does anything that you register alocates an emotion?
Mickorod Renard: I mean like,,ahhh,,there s my dog
Mickorod Renard: or,,oh no,,here comes my boss
Mickorod Renard: or,,wow,,look at that rainbow
Fefonz Quan: So there are two things here: one, can there be "neutral" event (there is A dog, this is a table, etc.)
Mickorod Renard: but we may see a piece of paper on the floor,,and just ignor it
Scathach Rhiadra: but the seeing of the piece of paper is an arising, once you perceive it, no matter how lightly
Udge Watanabe: so arising for you has nothing to do with my response.
Mickorod Renard: ok,,that answers my question,,although not as I had hoped
Fefonz Quan: sorry, back now
Mickorod Renard: hi
Udge Watanabe: wb
Fefonz Quan: agree with Scath
Mickorod Renard: I was sort of hoping that arising comes from an effort,,ie,,like an elevated awareness
Scathach Rhiadra: what was your response Udge?
Fefonz Quan: Udge, i do thing that a response can arise, and it is very interesting to watch those responses
Udge Watanabe: Scath, you dissociated the arising as fact in the world from my response to it. I was noting that, because I am also struggling with terms and meaning here.
Fefonz Quan: maybe observing our responses is the most important tool in understanding who we are
Fefonz Quan: what make us click
Udge Watanabe: even if the paper arouses no emotion or interest in me, its presence is an arising.
Mickorod Renard: mmmm
Scathach Rhiadra: ah, I understand now
arabella Ella: it is interesting to see the different viewpoints and likely too the different meanings each of us seem to give to arising
Mickorod Renard: but when we look at arising in detail,,from a meditational point of view,,we do see it more aluminated
Fefonz Quan: what is Aluminated?
arabella Ella: illuminated?
Udge Watanabe: *illuminated
Mickorod Renard: sorry,,yes
Mickorod Renard: where did i get that from
Mickorod Renard: is it french?
Fefonz Quan: ah, ok :) it could gave a metalic glare to all things :)
arabella Ella smiles
Mickorod Renard: I have been in france for years,,before commin home
Fefonz Quan: i am still confused a little between arisig and appearance or appearing
Udge Watanabe is glad he isn't the only one.
Mickorod Renard: if arising is what appearsmmwhy give it another name?
Scathach Rhiadra: me too:)
Udge Watanabe: and yet we speak with such conviction :)
buddha Nirvana: ty all _/\_
Mickorod Renard: bye buddha
Fefonz Quan: i thought arising is like movement of appearances
Udge Watanabe: bye buddha, take care.
arabella Ella: my way of seeing arising is different ... for me arising (as a novice) involves making an effort to perceive visually, sound, touch, whatever, at a different level from the usual
Scathach Rhiadra: bye buddha
Fefonz Quan: Bye Buddha
Mickorod Renard: same as me Ara,,but i am novice too
Udge Watanabe: which would make it "internal" for you, Ara, in the sense I started with.
arabella Ella: yes Udge
Udge Watanabe: the arising-ness is in you, your heightened perception, not in what the object does
Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, now I'm confused:)
Fefonz Quan: me too :)
arabella Ella: yes ,,, but does an object ever really do anything apart from our perception of it?
Mickorod Renard: ok so far udge
arabella Ella: however our perception can be at various levels
Scathach Rhiadra: everything arises, what I perceive is the arising
Udge Watanabe: it "does" to you in that it arouses your interest, raises your perception to a higher level
arabella Ella: superficial or in depth or otherwise
Fefonz Quan: Solo, some help here ? :)
Udge Watanabe: which others do not.
arabella Ella: exactly Udge
Udge Watanabe: solo, right on time.
Solobill Laville: :)
Solobill Laville: I like listening :)
Mickorod Renard: yes,,aluminate us solo
Solobill Laville: lol! WIth what??
Udge Watanabe: we are trying to position "arising" on the continuum between me (my perceptoin) and the world (appearances)
Fefonz Quan: i think there is a confusion between arosing and arising Udge
Udge Watanabe: ah :)
Mickorod Renard: grin,,it means illuminate
Fefonz Quan: arousing *
Solobill Laville: Well, in terms of a statement from Buddhism, such as "dependent arising"
Solobill Laville: I'd ask Stim ;)
Mickorod Renard: hey,,I been aroused before
Mickorod Renard: in my long lost memories
Fefonz Quan: i see it more as "becoming" (and then begoing)
Mickorod Renard: phew..wipes his brow
Udge Watanabe: not bad for a first attempt :)
Fefonz Quan: i open my eyes - and the whole world arises before me
Mickorod Renard: has someone vanished?
Udge Watanabe: corvi poofed, probably connection trouble again
Mickorod Renard: ty
Fefonz Quan: or dream workshop
Udge Watanabe: no, she's offline
Mickorod Renard: oh yea..I do dreams too
Udge Watanabe: Mick, have you claimed the session?
Mickorod Renard: not yet
Udge Watanabe: :)
Mickorod Renard: when do I do that?
Udge Watanabe: click on the base of the fountain and select "claim" from the menu
Fefonz Quan: Hey Corvi, wb :)
Udge Watanabe: wb corvi
Scathach Rhiadra: wb Corvi
Udge Watanabe: you can do that at any time during hte meeting
Corvuscorva Nightfire: thanks.
Solobill Laville: brb
Fefonz Quan: did it work Mick?
Mickorod Renard: w back
Mickorod Renard: not yet
Udge Watanabe: oh, I hope Wol remembered to add you to the list of GOCs
Mickorod Renard: thought i was
Fefonz Quan: left click below the "recording" in teh middle of the fountain
Udge Watanabe: when you click on it, what happens?
Udge Watanabe: the grey stone pyramid bit
Udge Watanabe: there!
Scathach Rhiadra: yay!
Mickorod Renard: yep,,done it thanks
Fefonz Quan: hooray!
Mickorod Renard: was right clickin
Mickorod Renard: now |I have the lurgy
Udge Watanabe: aaah, true. the habits of explanation. "click on" almost always means "right-click" in SL
arabella Ella: well done mick for your first session, went well
Mickorod Renard: and have to get rid of it,,grin
Mickorod Renard: thankyou
Mickorod Renard: and thankyou for being well behaved
Udge Watanabe throws a paper airplane at solo
Scathach Rhiadra: give us time...:)
arabella Ella: well i had intented to give you a really tough time but ...
Mickorod Renard: he he he
Fefonz Quan: but you are too compassionate Ara :)
Udge Watanabe: that must be it.
arabella Ella smiles
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
Mickorod Renard: I must admit,,I found the discussion interesting
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Fefonz Quan: me too. and that is before we went to the co-arising from lst pheno sessions :)
Udge Watanabe: :)
arabella Ella nods
Fefonz Quan: that left me co-pezzled
arabella Ella: LOL
arabella Ella: translation pls?
arabella Ella: pezzled?
Fefonz Quan: pazzled*
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I am just musing over co arising myself
arabella Ella: puzzled?
Udge Watanabe: poozled?
Scathach Rhiadra: plexed?
arabella Ella: like illumination?
Mickorod Renard: thought I best get arising clear in head first
Fefonz Quan nods
Udge Watanabe: :)
Mickorod Renard: i am well aluminated
arabella Ella is pixeled not aluminated
Mickorod Renard: he he
Fefonz Quan: if SL would have the feature to open a small window to other place
Udge Watanabe: /me's university thinks he is alumni'd
Fefonz Quan: in SL simultaniously
arabella Ella: LOL
Mickorod Renard: ah ha,,the aluminati
Fefonz Quan: Wow, a university that hinks1 that's an inteligent institute :)
Fefonz Quan: thinks*
arabella Ella: my uni thinks i'm titaniumed
Udge Watanabe: :)
arabella Ella: nite Scath
Fefonz Quan: bye Scath :)
Solobill Laville is back and very tardy
Udge Watanabe: 'night scath, take care
Solobill Laville: bye, scath
Udge Watanabe: that is the most important part, get your starting point right.
Fefonz Quan: go to dream now :), see you all
Mickorod Renard: night scath
arabella Ella: bye Fefonz
Udge Watanabe: you should be viewing the current-month page, with the list of existing posts this month
Mickorod Renard: bye fefonz,,ty
Solobill Laville: bye, fef
Udge Watanabe: not the year page, and also not a single session
Udge Watanabe: bye fefonz
Mickorod Renard: yep,,03
Udge Watanabe: right.
arabella Ella: bye i must go too
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye!
Udge Watanabe: now open another window, and go to the URL that the listener will give ou when you end the session
Udge Watanabe: bye ara, bye solo, take care.
Mickorod Renard: byeeee
Solobill Laville: me too, bye all!
Udge Watanabe: 'night all
Solobill Laville: Bye, Udge, nice to see you again :)
Udge Watanabe: likewise!
Mickorod Renard: night,,and bye