2009.07.20 13:00 - Where is Aware?

The Guardian for this meeting was Pila Mulligan, sitting in for Tarmel and Stim. The comments are by Pila Mulligan.

Tarmel had answered Stim's request to serve as a replacement Guardian for this session, but then her late work night had caused the job to become something of a burden.

Pila Mulligan: hi Eliza and Bert
Eliza Madrigal: Jo Pila, Bertam
Bertram Jacobus: hi pila, eliza :-)
Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tarmel
Bertram Jacobus: hello tarmel :-)
Tarmel Udimo: HI everybody!
Pila Mulligan: thank you for taking Stim's place as guardian, Tarmel -- just before you did I had IMed him with an offer to do so, but you made it unnecessary :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Fefonz
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fefonz :)
Bertram Jacobus: hello fefonz :-)
Tarmel Udimo: oh, Pila, I would be more than happy if you do:)
Fefonz Quan: Hey Tarmel, Pila, Eliza, Bertrum
Tarmel Udimo: Hi Fefonz
Pila Mulligan: do you have a scheduling situation, Tarmel -- otherwise please continue :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Gaya :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)
Fefonz Quan: Hey Gaya!
Bertram Jacobus: hello gaya :-)
Pila Mulligan: hi Gaya
Tarmel Udimo: Hi Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Nice to see you again :)
Tarmel Udimo: yes nice to see everyone
Tarmel Udimo: I was just responding to Pila
Tarmel Udimo: (I was working very late and its very early here, so Pila if you can take over I may crawl back to bed)
Pila Mulligan: ok, please have a nice rest
Pila Mulligan: my pleasure
Gaya Ethaniel: Good rest Tarmel. See you soon :)
Fefonz Quan: sleep well Tarmel
Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you for a moment Tarmel :) Rest well
Tarmel Udimo: ty very much, sorry to leave you lovely folks, have a good one
Pila Mulligan: 6 am in the land of Oz
Pila Mulligan: sweet dreams
Tarmel Udimo: nods

Fox arrived as Tarmel departed, then Yakuzza arrived a bit later, after we started looking for a topic

Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fox :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fox, nice to see you again
Fox Monacular: hello everyone
Pila Mulligan: hi Fox
Bertram Jacobus: hy fox :-)
Fefonz Quan: hello Fox
Fox Monacular: nice to see you too, Eliza
Pila Mulligan: Fox I think you've been here before, haven't you?
Fox Monacular: yes, a couple of times
Pila Mulligan: so you're familiar with the recording/posting?
Bertram Jacobus: i´m quite new at this place, it´s only my second time here, and my english is not native. so sorry for my mistakes, please ...
Fox Monacular: yes, definitely
Eliza Madrigal: No worries at all, Bertram!
Pila Mulligan: ok Bert, do you know about the chat logs being recorded and posted on the website?
Bertram Jacobus: yes. ty. that´s okay and wonderful :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Pila Mulligan: thank you
Bertram Jacobus: a graet and big project i guess ...
Bertram Jacobus: great
Pila Mulligan: last week at a workshop hosted by Stim Morane there was some interest in using this session (usually also hosted by Stim) to continue the workshop topics
Pila Mulligan: so we can have any topic, if you wish, or pick up with those workshop ideas
Bertram Jacobus: may i ask, which are the workshop ideas ?
Gaya Ethaniel: I think 'interconnectedness' has been discussed before many times at PaB for example.
Eliza Madrigal: I like the idea of discussing some of the underlying workshop issues, yes like interconnectedness
Gaya Ethaniel: [though not in the context of codependent arising]
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
Pila Mulligan: Stim has been doing several months now on various approaches to reality from contemplative traditions
Pila Mulligan: his skill level is too great to try to duplicate it here :)
Fefonz Quan nods :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I'd be very interested to hear what a physicist may think of this idea for example [winks at Fefonz]
Pila Mulligan: but one of the topics recently has been the Buddhist doctrines of codependent arising
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yakuzza :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza :)
Fefonz Quan: Hey Yaku :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Yakuzza
Bertram Jacobus: hey yakuzza :-)
Fox Monacular: hey again Yakuzza
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey :)
Pila Mulligan: here is the wiki for Stim's workhsop, with logs from January to last week -- http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
Pila Mulligan: Gaya has just asked Fefonz to take on interconnecteness from a physics science viewpoint :)
--BELL--
Fefonz Quan is not sure how can that be done :)
Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh sorry for being cheeky. I'm not demanding Fefonz, just curious.
Pila Mulligan: saved by the bell :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Bertram Jacobus: there are 12 kind of aspects of the buddhistic doctrines of codependent arising - and i never understood them in whole until now ....
Pila Mulligan: yes, Bert, that is what Stim has been explaining also
Pila Mulligan: please say more if you wish

As we somewhat settle on interconnectedness as a topic (it also becomes the degree of interconnectedness between science and contemplative traditions) Jiraiya Teskat arrives (Jiraiya is an old friend from the former Nymf's Forum), and Hana Furlough arrives soon thereafter

Yakuzza Lethecus: hey jiraiya
Jiraiya Teskat: hello
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Jiraiya :)
Bertram Jacobus: sorry - not about this topic, only, may be ... that i would be very interested in understanding it once ... but now - here is also the topic of interconnectedness as it seems (?) ...
Fefonz Quan: hi jiraija
Pila Mulligan: hi jiraiya
Fox Monacular: hi jiraiya
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Jiraiya
Bertram Jacobus: hello jiraya :-)
Pila Mulligan: we have been taking interconnectedness as the easier topic
Bertram Jacobus: ok
Pila Mulligan: it may not even be the same topic, but it seems to be related :)
Fox Monacular: interconnectedness as in quantum physics?
Pila Mulligan: I tihnk that may be what Gaya was sugesting
Fefonz Quan: can you explain that some more?
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Fefonz Quan: (to Fox)
Pila Mulligan: science seems to almost tease us with ideas that sound just like ideas from old contemplaitve traditions -- e.g., entanglement, mirror neurons -- it may be that they are related or it may just be wishful thinking, I don't know
Pila Mulligan: but it is interestig
Eliza Madrigal nods
Fox Monacular: hmmm...
Fox Monacular: i don't really know much about that
Eliza Madrigal: Interconnectedness as an idea seems to be a very accessible idea, in discussing the way we live our daily lives with other people.. a paradigm that sees individuals as fundamentally separate from each other/environment brings diff. actions than one that sees others as, in essence, oneself?
Fox Monacular: yes, that's what I know too, Eliza
Fefonz Quan: it is interesting to my opinion too, though on the other hand the trial to synchronize those ideas with teh scientific approach can also be very frustrating, so i am not sure it is the optimal way to go
Pila Mulligan: hello Hana
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Hana :)
Bertram Jacobus: isn´t the chaos theory from the science view referring to interconectedness ? (it´s really a question - i´m not sure)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Hana :)
Hana Furlough: hi everyone
Bertram Jacobus: hello hana :-)
Fox Monacular: I think science taking from contemplative traditions can also signify a shift in underlying ontologies
Fefonz Quan: hello Hanna
Fox Monacular: hello Hanna
Gaya Ethaniel: I don't quite get that Fox. Can you please explain?
Bertram Jacobus: i heard once : there is a possibility to find things out via insight or via research of the outer spheres - but the results are the same in the end - may be so the studies ("inner" and "outer") find now together ? ...
Fox Monacular: I guess I'm thinkign that science as a discipline has been seen as fairly separate from anything else, especially anything pertaining to religion or philosophy
Fox Monacular: and now there is more movement towards interdisciplinarity
Eliza Madrigal nods. Perhaps discoveries turn assumptions on their heads which brings about a new kind of humility and listening.
Fox Monacular: yes, exactly
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
Fefonz Quan: somehow i suspect this interdisciplinary term comes from the non-science regime
Fox Monacular: radical empiricism is now making place for recognizing that there are other sources of knowledge
Fox Monacular: in a more extended, 'gnosis' kind of way
Fefonz Quan: what is radical empiricism?
Fox Monacular: basic assumption that phenomena must be empirically observed
Fox Monacular: and through experimentation that has to be quantifiable and repeatable we can understand them
Fefonz Quan: that sounds like classical science
Fox Monacular: yes, exactly
--BELL--
Gaya Ethaniel: That may present limits to investigation of mind and consciousness as these are private and subjective experiences.
Pila Mulligan: science seems to rely on a similar empirical/intuitive approach as an initial element, prior to proofs, while contemplative traditions did not seem to require proofs beyond personal experience
Fox Monacular: personal experience can be a proof too
Pila Mulligan: yes
Fox Monacular: in a phenomenological way
Pila Mulligan: sufficient for the person at least
Fox Monacular: in case of buddha - sufficient for the whole humanity!
Gaya Ethaniel: Sure but is it repeatable in objective [scientific as you described it] way Fox?
Fox Monacular: i think so, it's one of the main assumptions and requirements of science
Pila Mulligan: I think Pema has speculated that any genuine merging of these old and new schools is unlikely in the near future, but he seems to think it will probably happen eventually
Fox Monacular: others should be able to replicate your results, many studies aim at just replication of major findings
Fefonz Quan: sure, but scientists don't call buddhism science
Fox Monacular: yes, but there are some initiatives to bring buddhism and science closer together
Fox Monacular: like Mind and Life institute
Gaya Ethaniel: Well, I'm not so sure.
Pila Mulligan: Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's insitituions also work along those lines
Pila Mulligan: seeking science in traditional practices
Fox Monacular: In mind and life institute they are starting to talk about contemplative science
Eliza Madrigal: yes and many studies of contemplative brains at work, right?
Pila Mulligan: yes, Eliza, that part goes back quite some time
Fox Monacular: yes, there has been a true explosion of brain scans of meditators
Fefonz Quan: not sure about explosion, but there sure has been some.
Eliza Madrigal: they've linked actual physiological changes to meditation, but can't say 'why' exactly
Pila Mulligan: thinking of the Menninger Institute and Swami Rama, 40 years ago
Fox Monacular: explosion for real :) every week in my pubmed notifications :)
Fefonz Quan: though their point was to show the nurological influence of meditation, which is totally within the scientific region
Bertram Jacobus: sorry, but : "buddhas experiences sufficient for the humanity" ? was this said ? if yes, i would disagree : there are many people for those buddhas teachings are not so ... reliable (?) ...
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm only aware of Richard Davidson at the University of Wisconsin. Would be interesting if you know more articles available online.
Fox Monacular: no, they can't say why because nobody has proposed a good model which would truly bring these things together in a meaningful way
Fox Monacular: although there is the enactive approach
Fox Monacular: from Varela and Thompson and Noe
Fefonz Quan: what does it say?
Fox Monacular: that our minds are not in our brains but rather consciousness can be seen as an interplay between brain, body and environment
Pila Mulligan: I would agree with that :)
Gaya Ethaniel: I think that's largely accepted view of consciousness among neuroscientists.
Gaya Ethaniel: [not sure about the location of the mind though]
Fox Monacular: no, Gaya, I would disagree
Bertram Jacobus: may be everywhere gaya ? ...
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm not sure I meant.
Fox Monacular: neuroscience mostly accept connectionist and computational models
Fox Monacular: mostly
Fox Monacular: not all of course
Gaya Ethaniel: Well Edelman's view on consciousness is just that and he is pretty mainstream.
Pila Mulligan: to me it is interesting that contemplative traditions paid somewhat more attention to the spine than the cranium -- e.g., chakras, kundalini, accupunture
Pila Mulligan: so the body's whole sense spectrum was at play
Pila Mulligan: not just brain stuff
Gaya Ethaniel: Please say more Pila?
Fefonz Quan: are you sure Edelman's consciousness ideas are mainstream Gaya?
Gaya Ethaniel: I think so Fefonz.
Fox Monacular: I'm afraid I never heard of Edelman
Gaya Ethaniel: That's me though :)

Arabella and Mick arrive as the topic settles into where we find awareness (spiced with 'in robots, maybe?')

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Arabella
arabella Ella: Hiya
Fefonz Quan: Hi Ara
Fox Monacular: in any case they don't really reference him in papers
Yakuzza Lethecus: hiya ara :)
Fox Monacular: Hi Ara
Bertram Jacobus: hy arabella :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick
Fox Monacular: Hi Mick
Mickorod Renard: hiya
Fefonz Quan: hey Mick
Pila Mulligan: hi arablela and Mick
Gaya Ethaniel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Edelman - think he won Nobel Prize as well.
Eliza Madrigal: Nearly a full circle :))
Bertram Jacobus: hy mickorod :-)
arabella Ella: yes i know of gerald edelman read him some years ago
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick and arabella :)
Hana Furlough: hi mick and arabella!
--BELL--
Fox Monacular: neuroscience usually does not disregard body and environment, but usually they talk about these things in terms of input and output on the level of the brain when it concerns consciousness
Fefonz Quan: i agree with fox. This is a kind of functional definition of consccoiusness, from the little i have read
Fefonz Quan: and as such, i am not sure it touches teh more fundamental issues we bring up here, than previous research
Fox Monacular: it's always in the interpretation of the data
Eliza Madrigal: yes, and regardless of what is intending to be studied, lots of data is collected across many fields,
Eliza Madrigal: science included
Eliza Madrigal: which may come into play in ways we don't imagine
Eliza Madrigal: eventually
Gaya Ethaniel: I think Elderman's view is that consciousness is not just made up of processes. But I do really need to spend more time reading up in this interesting subject before I can speak more :)
Fox Monacular: hopefully there are more and more initiatives to enable constructive dialogue
Eliza Madrigal: yes constructive dialog, and also just people with special interests who may put various disciplines together in imaginative ways and write papers ;-))
Fox Monacular: definitely, like Varela, Thompson and Roch's book on embodied mind
Eliza Madrigal: I need to read Varela :)
Fox Monacular: yes, it's very interesting
Fox Monacular: he also started mind and life meetings where scientists meet with dalai lama
Fox Monacular: they do it every year
Fox Monacular: and sometimes publish transripts
Fox Monacular: as books
Bertram Jacobus: do you think, robots will develop conciousness ?
Fefonz Quan: Thanks Fox, after you mentioned it i managed to locate it on a shelf behind me :)
Fox Monacular: hope not
Bertram Jacobus: why fox ? and - what do you THINK ?
Mickorod Renard: from a purely ignorant position,,i would like to say I worry that we may loose the special notion,,of spiritualness if we unlock the mechanics of the mind and conciousness
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, was listening to Dalai Lama discussing adding the nervous system as a consideration into buddhist literature...have to respect that flexibility
Fefonz Quan: i am not sure this question has any meaning Bertrum when we don't know what consciousness is
Fox Monacular: hmmm... i don't think mind equals brain and that neural connections are all there is to that
Fox Monacular: thanks, Fefonz
Jiraiya Teskat: If we consider that the universe is only ruled by logic -no random- Im afraid that robots could develop a consciousness sooner or later
Fox Monacular: we should hten program them with buddhist philosophy right away
arabella Ella: I think it all depends on how we define the concept of consciousness ... which could be defined in such a way so as to be in a position to state robots are already conscious
Fefonz Quan: well, the universe appear to have randomness, and second - how would you know if the robgot is conscious?
Bertram Jacobus: no meaning ? that´s not my impression : answers can be found from many phenomenons ...
Mickorod Renard: would robots see their creator as a God?
Fefonz Quan nods to Ara
Fox Monacular: meaning is dependent on experience
Fefonz Quan: Do you Mick?
Bertram Jacobus: i would "know" it as well as i "know" it from others fefonz
Mickorod Renard: maybe
Fox Monacular: what kind of gods?
Fefonz Quan: that's the issue Bertrum, you don't know it
Mickorod Renard: thats an issue in itself
Fox Monacular: i don't see my parents as gods anymore
Bertram Jacobus: ;o)
Fefonz Quan: hehe :)
Jiraiya Teskat: mmmm randomness is for me something to complex too be understood from our "brains" and tools but still obey to logic
Eliza Madrigal: :)
arabella Ella: meaning is not always dependent on experience ... we can be 'conditioned' into learning certain meanings and interpretations and connotations ... it is more contextual and cultural
Fox Monacular: there might be order in chaos
Fox Monacular: yes, arabella, learning is also an experience
arabella Ella agrees ... if you broaden the meaning of experience ... as there is also rote learning
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: I would dread to think on what basis robotic morals would be on..human kind cannot aggree on its own yet
Mickorod Renard: oops..pardon
Fox Monacular: yes, Mickorod, exactly, we can program robots to agree on morals
Fox Monacular: but human brain and mind are not computers
Eliza Madrigal: I need to get going for now. Thanks for an interesting conversation everyone. :)
Bertram Jacobus: i mean - the latest stand of technology is, that robots already can differ between "belongs to "me" and "does not belong to "me" (!) ...

We almost reached a full circle this sesssion, one cushion shy -- now Eliza and Gaya start the departures (and some cushion shifting in search of symmetry takes place)

Pila Mulligan: bye Eliza, thank you
Fefonz Quan: good night Eliza )
arabella Ella: nite Eliza
Gaya Ethaniel: Me too. Good day/night all :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now :))
Mickorod Renard: nite eliza
Pila Mulligan: bye Gaya, see you next time
arabella Ella: nite Gaya
Yakuzza Lethecus: gaya
Mickorod Renard: bye gaya
Fefonz Quan: bye Gaya

arabella Ella: well Bertram there is also literature published on robots feeling hungry, feeling love, etc ... but again it all depends on your basic definitions of those terms
Bertram Jacobus: and especially the ideas of embodyment seem to implify that mind, conciousness and all that develops from a body - which robots definitly have ...
Fefonz Quan: yes, but a bosy that act in very different ways, time scales, etc.
Fefonz Quan: body*
Mickorod Renard: the trouble programming robots is that it will be down to humans to do the first one
Fox Monacular: yes
Fefonz Quan: and human also created computer viruses, so..
arabella Ella: there is an interesting author alexander mcClintock published by Ashgate if you are interested Bertram
Mickorod Renard: so will we create monsters
Bertram Jacobus: ty for the hint arabella
arabella Ella: he goes into feeling heat ... which is a whole body sensation ... and other similar examples
Fox Monacular: we create monsters even among ourselves
Mickorod Renard: thats the point I was making
arabella Ella: yes and many humans unfortunately exhibit very moronic behaviour
Mickorod Renard: I often do
Bertram Jacobus: but we should aim for better goals i´m convinced ...
Pila Mulligan: :) Fefonz does symmetry :)
Fox Monacular: the problem is that we can't agree on what 'better' means
Fefonz Quan: ;-)
arabella Ella: we ... they ... are Betram aiming for better goals
Bertram Jacobus: when we find back to simplicity i think, an agreement is not so hard to find
Jiraiya Teskat: sure:)
Fox Monacular: some good goals happen in hockey
Fefonz Quan couldn't even find agreement between an 8-appaartment building neighboura where he lives
Bertram Jacobus: lol agree :o)
Jiraiya Teskat: no need for A.I.
arabella Ella: :)
Fox Monacular: AI used to be a fun domain, now it's all about computer science
Mickorod Renard: ok,,i am off home,,c u all another day,,byeeeeeee
arabella Ella: fraid i must go now bye everyone!
Fefonz Quan: night Mick
Fefonz Quan: nite ara!
Pila Mulligan: bye arabella and Mick
Fox Monacular: bye ara and mick
Bertram Jacobus: bye to the leaving persons ... :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeaqh, it was a great session today
Jiraiya Teskat: Bye Mick and Ara
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
Fefonz Quan: Bye Yakuza
Fox Monacular: bye everyone
Fefonz Quan: Nd Fox
Pila Mulligan: bye Yakuzza
Pila Mulligan: and Fox
Hana Furlough: sorry i had best get back to work
Pila Mulligan: bye Hana
Hana Furlough: thanks for letting me join you
Pila Mulligan: thanks for being here
Hana Furlough: have a wonderful day!
Bertram Jacobus: bye hana - have a good time
Fefonz Quan: you're welcomed Hana
Jiraiya Teskat: Bye Hana

Pila Mulligan: more of the symmetry game :)
Bertram Jacobus: nice
Pila Mulligan: I think Wol started this
Pila Mulligan: musical cushions
Fefonz Quan: if we don't talk interconnectedness, at least we have some fun :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: do you suppose interconnectedness has an end point?
Fefonz Quan: i guess not...
Bertram Jacobus: i don´t see any beginning or end ...
Pila Mulligan: it is hard to imagine isn't it
Fefonz Quan: what do you mean by end point Pila?
Bertram Jacobus: i find, an end is not easier to imagine
Pila Mulligan: so it would seem to trasncend time also
Pila Mulligan: well, Fefonz, an end point as in a place where things are not interconnected
Pila Mulligan: or a time, for that matter
Pila Mulligan: inlcuding the singularity
Fefonz Quan: well, we are not sure yet my house and yours are connected now :)
Pila Mulligan: as it is called, I think :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fefonz Quan: :) there are some options :0
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: Fefonz moved so we are on the cardinal points of the peace symbol
Bertram Jacobus: singularity ? i have the impression, that´s only a thing in our minds ...
Pila Mulligan: yes Bert, no doubt it is but it represents time in an ultimate sense
Fefonz Quan nods to bertrum
Bertram Jacobus: uh yes. but my position ... is so accentuated ... tht´s too heavy for me :-)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fefonz Quan: as you may know Pila, in radical codependant arising approach, the notion of time itself starts to loose its linear mode
Pila Mulligan: yes, this of course is beyond my capacity, but the convergence of time and space is an interesting concept
Fefonz Quan: though from a physical point of view, as for now, they are diverging...
Pila Mulligan: and isn't the sigularity the hypothetical starting point for that divergence?
Fefonz Quan: well, as they say, what was was, was was
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: when when when?
Fefonz Quan: always
Pila Mulligan: personally, my memory is more based on places than on times
Pila Mulligan: I recall expereinces by place, in other words
Fefonz Quan: mine too.
Jiraiya Teskat: Its mostly based on the strongest feelings you had about what you lived Pila

Fox, having left a little earlier, returns and the remaining discussion shifts in time to dream awareness

Pila Mulligan: hi again Fox, welcome back
Fox Monacular: hi
Fefonz Quan: i even wrote in our wiki some page about it, claiming that our time perception has to do with places and context, not with 'real' time
Bertram Jacobus: hello fox again
Fefonz Quan: hello Fox
Pila Mulligan: yes, Jiraiya
Fefonz Quan: even teh colors fit :)
Pila Mulligan: but mostly those feelings relate to places instead of dates
Bertram Jacobus: it´s great :-)
Jiraiya Teskat: sure
Pila Mulligan: so if this is common, then time seems to be a secondary factor toplace in terms of memory
Pila Mulligan: now, obviously, the place changes from what it was when I expereinced it
Fefonz Quan: i think they complement each other - 'what' you remember - are places and event (or their appearances)
Pila Mulligan: in its own reality
Fox Monacular: there are also emotional significances to events
Fefonz Quan: but there is some sense of 'when', or 'how far' to that memory - which hints to teh time perception
Fefonz Quan: agree with Fox - appearances of feelings, emotions, sensations are also included)
Pila Mulligan: yes, but there Fefonz the idea seems to me to be more sequence or chronology than chrconoligcal time
Fefonz Quan: can you rephrase that?
Fox Monacular: right, how often we get chronology wrong!
Pila Mulligan: the strong feelings or emotions help etch the memory for sure
Fox Monacular: one might argue that unemotional memories have low chance of survival
Pila Mulligan: well, lets take my first airplane ride -- it is a memory, and it has a place in my life's chronology, but it does not have a precise date or time
Pila Mulligan: in my mmeory
Bertram Jacobus: thaks for the talk - hope i did not disturb you to much ...
Fefonz Quan: that sounds true Fox, mostly that memories tht survive are those you visit more foten
Pila Mulligan: thank you Bert for your contributions, please feel welcome any time
Fefonz Quan: Thanks Bertram!
Fox Monacular: right, and perhaps it has something to do with our current version of our autobiography
Pila Mulligan: bye for now
Bertram Jacobus: may be all beings be happy ... ty again all
Fox Monacular: bye Bertram
Jiraiya Teskat: Bye Bertram
Fefonz Quan: it also doesn't have precise images and locations i guess Pila. somehow i feel preciseness is not our major faculty
Pila Mulligan: not mine :)
Fox Monacular: nope
Fefonz Quan: (for Pila)
Fefonz Quan: :)
Pila Mulligan is content with general impressions
Fox Monacular: there are studies that show that current state of mind greatly influences recall of events and sometimes produces fake memories
Fefonz Quan nods
Pila Mulligan: I wonder about fake experiences Fox
Fox Monacular: there is a classic study, I don't quite remember the exact details but it goes somethign like this...
Fox Monacular: people were shown pictures of 2 cars colliding
--BELL--
Fox Monacular: and some time later 1 group was asked to describe 2 cars 'bumping' into each other, and the other group - 2 cars 'smashing' into each other
Fox Monacular: so the group that was primed to think about 'smashing' described seeing broken glass
Fox Monacular: which was not there on the picture originally
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: it is certainly common in courtrooms to hear several different descriptions of the same event
Fox Monacular: yes, exactly
Fox Monacular: there was a famous case of a famous psychiatrist being accused of rape
Fox Monacular: only to find out that the victim saw his face on tv while wating in the police station
Pila Mulligan: so we have expereinces resulting from things that may not be considered real
Fefonz Quan: like dreams.
Fox Monacular: yes, it seems to be dependent on our own internal processes
Fox Monacular: yes!
Fefonz Quan: i am sure some of the vivid experiences i have are from dreams. mostly i believe i can tell the difference, but who knows?
Pila Mulligan: now how do we reach a consensus n what is real?
Fox Monacular: can we really?
Pila Mulligan: legislation?
Fox Monacular: agree
Fefonz Quan: a camera and tape recorder? :)
Fox Monacular: what about dream camera
Jiraiya Teskat: what really counts for us is not what is happening itself but what we feel about what is happening.
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fox Monacular: feel and think and experience, and also what we pay attention to
Jiraiya Teskat: sure
Fox Monacular: i think attention is underestimated
Pila Mulligan: so the consensus may be whetever gets the most attention
Fox Monacular: usually people who have the most attention are right :)
Fefonz Quan: we can still go see if the glass is broken or not
Fox Monacular: and they get to write legislations
Fox Monacular: yes, only if we look for it
Fox Monacular: for example, i'm chatting with you and I can hear my neighbors talk on a balcony
Pila Mulligan: Fefonz makes the obvious point that in terms of facts like broken glass there is *usually* continuity
Fox Monacular: really really clearly, but i have no idea what they are saying
Fefonz Quan: that's what happens with Chinese neighbours :)
Fox Monacular: :)
Fox Monacular: I agree with Pila, but can you tell me with 100% certaintly what you had for breakfast last tuesday?
Pila Mulligan: yes
Fefonz Quan: it seems obvious, but i think it is important for that discussion Pila
Pila Mulligan: it is always the same :)
Pila Mulligan: but that was a coincidence
Fox Monacular: allright, can you tell me who was the 3d person you saw today?
Fefonz Quan: i surely can't
Pila Mulligan: I have not seen them yet :)
Pila Mulligan: this is a fun game Foix
Fefonz Quan: yes it is LOL
Fox Monacular: i like it too
Pila Mulligan: the idea being that our recollection is incomplete and subjectiuve, I suppose
Fefonz Quan: Foix sounds like Fois Gras
Jiraiya Teskat: hehe
Fox Monacular: haha
Fefonz Quan had that for lunch on Saturday :)
Fox Monacular: was it good?
Fefonz Quan: mmhmmmmm
Fox Monacular: do you remember how many forks you had :)?
Fefonz Quan: one, i used the knife
Fox Monacular: your memory is phenomenal
Fox Monacular: :)
Fefonz Quan: was even better 20 years ago :)
Fefonz Quan: (if i recall) :)
Jiraiya Teskat: Hypnosis seems to show that memories are stored with an impressive accuracy
Pila Mulligan: do you suppose lucid dreams can converege seamlessly with waking reality?
Fox Monacular: I don't think so, Pila, in lucid dream you know you're dreaming
Fox Monacular: and you have to make an effort to stay in dream-state
Fox Monacular: it's like the opposite of wake i think
Fefonz Quan hums:' i never saw a lucid dream, i hope i never see one. but i can tell you right away, i rather see than be one!'
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fox Monacular: although in wake i often make an effort to stay awake
Fox Monacular: in lucid dream your bodily experience is very different
--BELL--
Fox Monacular: Fefonz, hypnosis is controvercial... some memories are not really memories it seems
Pila Mulligan: there is literature (e.g., Carlos Castaneda and Eastern stories) about unreal or magical waking expereinces that seem real or more than real
Fox Monacular: do you lucid dream, Pila?
Pila Mulligan: yes
Fox Monacular: yes, although Castaneda seems to be controversial too...
Pila Mulligan: yes :)
Pila Mulligan: but there are similar stories elsewhere
Fox Monacular: also, what do you mean by 'more than real'?...
Fox Monacular: definitely
Fox Monacular: there are also scary sleep paralysis experiences, or religious experiences too
Pila Mulligan: well, transcendent maybe
Fefonz Quan: i didn't say anything about hypnosis
Fox Monacular: yes, I understand
Jiraiya Teskat: I said...
Fox Monacular: ouch, sorry about that
Jiraiya Teskat: np
Fox Monacular: transitional experiences are the most interesting
Fox Monacular: they tell us a lot about states on each side
Pila Mulligan: can you say more, please, Fox
Fox Monacular: for instance difference between dreaming and wake
Fox Monacular: we think it's clear
Fox Monacular: but it's not
Pila Mulligan: yes, this is the seamless idea from above
Fox Monacular: wake can intrude into sleep - like in lucid dreams when you know you are dreaming
Fox Monacular: and dreaming can intrude into wake, like in sleep paralysis halluciations
Jiraiya Teskat: or hypnosis
Pila Mulligan: and magic maybe :) ?
Fox Monacular: i like the idea of enchantment
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fox Monacular: I don't know much about hypnosis, there are some clear similarities but there are also importand differences
Fox Monacular: like apparent amnesia
Pila Mulligan: I've had transition state dreams, if I understand what you meant, and they are quite interesting
Fox Monacular: are you talking about hypnagogic images or lucidity?
Pila Mulligan: I don't know those definionts :)
Fox Monacular: hypnagogic images are images you see at sleep onset, as you are falling asleep
Fefonz Quan: i had a several occasions of states i knew i am dreaming and wnated to wake up.
Fefonz Quan: on one recent, curiously i didn't know how will my world look like when i wake
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fox Monacular: also late morning REM sleep dreams are most vivid usually, and sometimes you become sort of aware
Fox Monacular: :)
Pila Mulligan: well, let me tell you one such transitional expereince
Pila Mulligan: it was quite some time ago, when I sometimes indulged in recreational non-sobriety
Pila Mulligan: one moninrg I dreamt at the end of sleeping of two gurus sitting beside each other, looking down at a bug running from them
Pila Mulligan: then immediately I was awake and the same bug was running across the sheets of my bed
Pila Mulligan: is that transitonal?
Fox Monacular: that's cool!
Pila Mulligan: it was cool :)
Fox Monacular: I would think that you were sort of waking up but still in the dream, and so you incorporated the bug into your narrative
Fox Monacular: it happens all the time with sounds
Pila Mulligan: yes, somehow it was on both sides
Fox Monacular: often when people are dreaming if you play a particular sound they would incorporate it into the narrative
Pila Mulligan: the funny thing was that the two gurus were both kind of recoiling going 'eewwe' at the bug
Fox Monacular: :))
Fox Monacular: or maybe the bug was the messenger from the dreamland
Pila Mulligan: yes, I actually took it that way
Fox Monacular: what did you do with it?
Pila Mulligan: squished it
Fox Monacular: so maybe you'll never know....
Pila Mulligan: I should have asked?
Fefonz Quan: yes, happens with alarm clocks usually, they are merged into the dream in funny ways
Fox Monacular: i certainly would have
Fox Monacular: only if i were sleeping alone though
Pila Mulligan: 'eh, bug, what's the message ? ...'  :)
Fox Monacular: something like that
--BELL--
Fox Monacular: maybe you would have continued sleeping
Pila Mulligan: I look forward to your meeting Maxine, Fox - she does dream workshops at Kira on Tuesdays, but she is on vacation now
Fox Monacular: yeah me too
Pila Mulligan: http://www.kira.org/index.php?option...106&Itemid=136
Fefonz Quan: i will leave guys, thanks for this multi-disciplinary conversation
Pila Mulligan: thank you Fefonz, bye for now
Jiraiya Teskat: Bye Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: _/!\_
Fox Monacular: bye Fefonz
Fox Monacular: thanks for the link, Pila
Fefonz Quan: Bye All
Pila Mulligan: one of maxine's ideas is that dreaming is continuous
Pila Mulligan: we just shift our attention to wkaing conditions
Pila Mulligan: but the dream go on
Fox Monacular: interesting.
Fox Monacular: so why do we have continuity only in wake?
Fox Monacular: i mean day to day continuity
Pila Mulligan: now that is a question wihtin a question
Pila Mulligan: how much continuity do we have?
Fox Monacular: yes, i agree
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: we have some for sure
Fox Monacular: or its just an illusion
Pila Mulligan: but I also have some dream contiinity
Fox Monacular: some people think that dreams don't have any narrative, that we make it up when we wake up
Pila Mulligan: I would again make the analogy work both ways -- we have narratives on both sides of the curtain
Fox Monacular: you mean you have continuity from one night to another?
Pila Mulligan: from dream to dream, night to night, week to week, year to year
Pila Mulligan: but not as regular as waking
Fox Monacular: wow, cool, it's very rare
Pila Mulligan: I started dreaming work long ago, I'm 63 now
Pila Mulligan: maybe it is dementia
Fox Monacular: i've only heard of 1 person like that
Fox Monacular: no, it's also practice:)
Pila Mulligan: it seems to be somewhat practice related
Pila Mulligan: i gave up trying to control dreams long ago -- it seems better just to go with them
Fox Monacular: you can train yourself to do a lot in dreaming
Pila Mulligan: yes indeed
Fox Monacular: there are techniques to lucid dream or to better remember
Pila Mulligan: yes, like remembering to do something
Pila Mulligan: in the dream
Fox Monacular: yes
Fox Monacular: also to ask for insight
Pila Mulligan: Don Juan (Casteneada) suggested looking at your hand
Pila Mulligan: that worked for me
Fox Monacular: yes, it works really well
Jiraiya Teskat: clever!
Pila Mulligan: I think in dreams it is the remembering part, but looking at your hands indirectly is also part of tai chi practice
Fox Monacular: another popular technique is when you try to turn the light on and off
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fox Monacular: because in the dream things are usually not what they seem
Pila Mulligan: and the lights play tricks there
Pila Mulligan: as do cars
Fox Monacular: like the lines on your palm
Fox Monacular: or some people try reading in the dream
Fox Monacular: it's quite surreal
Pila Mulligan: my favorite now is to do tai chi or meditate in the dream
Pila Mulligan: to solidify the epxereince
Fox Monacular: do you do tibetan dream yoga?
Pila Mulligan: I've tried some
Pila Mulligan: but the techniques require more patience than I seem to have
Fox Monacular: you seem to have reached a really amazing level of lucidity
Pila Mulligan: maybe dementia :)
Pila Mulligan: I like Maxine's idea of continuous dreaming, it fits my expereince
Fox Monacular: no i think it's the opposite of dementia
Pila Mulligan: thanks, encouraging Fox
Fox Monacular: lucidity is close to meditation
Pila Mulligan: I seem to sometimes sense dream images when awake also
Fox Monacular: in the ability to sustain atention
Fox Monacular: i know what you mean
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: sense as in, if I was dreaming now this is what the imagery would be -- I agree that lucidity is lucidty, anywhere
Fox Monacular: i think so too
Fox Monacular: well, thanks for the conversation, unfortunately I have to go wash real life dishes now
Pila Mulligan: :) thank you Fox, nice to meet you, see you next time
Fox Monacular: husband coming home in 30 min
Fox Monacular: :)
Jiraiya Teskat: See you soon Fox
Pila Mulligan: enjoy
Fox Monacular: see you soon!
Fox Monacular: bye Pila, bye Jiraiya
Jiraiya Teskat: Bye Fox
Pila Mulligan: bye Fox

Pila Mulligan: how have you been Jiraiya?

Jiraiya and I then had a personal chat for a while