07-09 - Weirdness

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    A conspiracy of events found me, Eliza, with the focus today, to pull together a scribe left undone months ago. The remarkable thing, is that within this scribe I found a way of describing a conceptual puzzle piece I was working on just this morning... something I'd set aside. :)

    As it happens, much in these sessions focuses on playing in the peculiar perceptions of the wonderful weirdness of phenomena ...

     2009.09.07 01:00 - How to create reality 

    Gaya Ethaniel: I read something peculiar today ... don't really understand it. Maybe you can?
    Gaya Ethaniel looks up ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: In qm, the definition of the object itself may be dependent crucially on observation - what does this mean?
    Pema Pera: it means that you cannot describe the state of any object independent of a measurement
    Gaya Ethaniel: So ... our act of measurement ... the interaction somehow changes the objects?
    Pema Pera: yes, in the past as well as in the future
    Gaya Ethaniel: ooo how peculiar ... to hear about such a thing from a scientist ...
    Pema Pera: it is *very* peculiar
    Gaya Ethaniel giggles quietly.
    Pema Pera: and ordinary logic does not apply  :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's somehow wonderfully weird.
    Gaya Ethaniel: So in qm, subject is as important as object then?
    Gaya Ethaniel: And the interactions between
    Pema Pera: yes, matter is far more wonderful, literally full of wonder, than anybody could have possibly expected a century ago

    Pema Pera: the mathematics is very precise, and well defined -- and the experiments agree with the mathematical
    descriptions to better than one part in a trillion/ so that is an incredibly precise confirmation that the mathematics is correct
    Gaya Ethaniel: Then ... why the interpretations so strange?
    Pema Pera: but the interpretation of how we can picture the objects is difficult
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... ok
    Pema Pera: we have to let go of the idea that an object exists before it is measured
    Pema Pera: in some way, we help to create reality simply by watching it
    Gaya Ethaniel giggles ... how wonderful that sounds Pema!

    2009.09.07 07:00 - Chuang Tzue, frogs and synaesthesia 

    Eliza Madrigal: Well I think that the qm discussion has a lot to do with the wu-wei discussion too
    Eliza Madrigal: blindsight and potentialities and all that :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Just enjoying things rather than trying to pin them down, etc.. appreciating

    Eos Amaterasu: Being as plenum
    Eos Amaterasu: "treasury" of the basic space of phenomena (Longchenpa)

    Eliza Madrigal: Ahh, nice...the basic space
    Eos Amaterasu: "thesaurus" of the perfections of existence ("esse") (Aquinas)
    Eos Amaterasu: Being as rich inkwell of textures of appearances

    Eos Amaterasu: out of the swirl of arisings, co-arisings with us
    Eliza Madrigal: Is that a 'letting' Eos?
    Eos Amaterasu: ? letting Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, Hm...Is that an 'act' of trusting.. that attendance
    Eliza Madrigal: which then lets...allows
    Eos Amaterasu: and of letting go, letting be, into the pool of appearance which also includes you appearing

    2009.09.07 13:00 - Too much theory 

    Yakuzza Lethecus: my problem was and is for example that when i think about buddism or meditation i still have associations that those are fancy things i would like to aquire but i don´t actually feel that i would have time and persistence and somehow i feel a need of fancy new feelings when i would do so, but my problem is that i associate exactly that everytime when i think about it and even disable myself in that way from getting more experienced or understand what i might have implicitly already aquired
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i just reassociate an existing schema and don´t let something new even touch me, but that is even something i noticed in multiple situations
    Pila Mulligan: fancy contemplation is one path :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: You need a starter maybe, Ya... just the 9 seconds and paying attention to your breath maybe... then you notice "Hm... I feel clearer..." then you maybe want to do more naturally? no pressure
    Wol Euler: yes, I was aobut to say something like that :)
    Fael Illyar: It's not so much the meditation itself that's the important part. It's the will to keep going.
    Wol Euler: too much theory is getting in the way of actuality, Yakuzza :)
    Fael Illyar: meditation is a tool
    Wol Euler: just do it, don't worry about what it is called.

    Bellily Millar: if you could sum up the most important thing said in the last 90 minutes, what would it be?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh wow... a summary? Of the whole session?
    Fael Illyar: ah! meep!
    Bellily Millar: it is the most gratifying SL place for me
    Eliza Madrigal smiles.... certainly for me too :) That's a nice thing to say
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Wol Euler: we spoke for a long time about bridging the gap between wanting something and taking steps to get it
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, and we encouraged each other a bit... regarding meditation practice... and not feeling overwhelmed
    Wol Euler: like wanting so badly to be a buddhist and a meditator, that one doesn't have the peace of mind to meditate :)
    Bellily Millar: smile
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh wow, yes Wol
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: actually, you know, this wraps perfectly onto what we were just saying!
    Wol Euler: the little taste of success to overcome the fear of doing something.
    Eliza Madrigal: That it does!
    Fael Illyar: yes, it tends to convince you it's possible to succeed
    Wol Euler: mmhmm, bypassing the self-criticism gland that "knows" that you cannot :)
    Fael Illyar: (that's what makes gambling so addictive)
    Wol Euler: exactly.

    Wol Euler: The Smiths said it well: "It's so easy to laugh. It's so easy to hate. It takes guts to be gentle and kind."

    2009.09.07 19:00 - How would we know multiple dimensions? 

    Paradise Tennant: listened to a great show ..by a time expert ..who thinks it is more like geography .. this moment exists somewhere like a hill .. but we move on ..
    Threedee Shepherd: As an adult, there is nothing I experience that requires me to posit a "tooth fairy"
    Paradise Tennant: and if you it does .. it is better .. allowing for a better understanding of y and z
    Benedizione Vita: and the lion shall lay down with the lamb ;^)
    Paradise Tennant: hiya bene we are talking quantum mechanics :)
    Benedizione Vita: that's incredibly ironic
    Benedizione Vita: I was about to say
    Benedizione Vita: I am logged in, but I won't actually be watching my screen
    Paradise Tennant: kk
    Benedizione Vita: because I have a quantum mechanics problem set due tomorrow ;^)
    Paradise Tennant: well there you go :))
    Threedee Shepherd: Bohm proposed an underlying reality that is the basis of such synchronicity

    Paradise Tennant: do you believe the big ban theory ?
    Threedee Shepherd: Not yet, I have trouble with dark matter and dark energy, which are unobserved to date and which make up "80%" of the theory
    Threedee Shepherd: Actually, my issue is worse than that. I cannot imagine an answer--based on any cosmology theory--to the question of where it all came from in the first place.
    Paradise Tennant: and the amazing .. reality of the very very tiny .. suggests .. a different world
    Paradise Tennant: that particles move back and forth in time .. act differently when observed . can be two places at once ..
    Threedee Shepherd: And any answer that involves some kinfd of "infinity" is beyond my comprehension, even if I understand the words.
    Paradise Tennant: all rather odd
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, those quantum phenomena are odd. We may never "understand" them, only be able to manipulate them
    Paradise Tennant: but we are made up of the very very very tiny ..so we must be odd too
    Threedee Shepherd: If Einstein and Bohr could not "understand" those phenomena, who am I to try ^.^
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Threedee Shepherd: I can't swim in a water molecule, I can in a pool.
    Paradise Tennant: I think we are odder than we let on :))

    2009.09.08 07:00 - Change, evolve or Aubergine 

    Maxine Walden: yes, Paul, I think about that a lot: the us vs them seems so ancient and tribal, as if perhaps coming before mirror neurons
    Paul Namiboo: Sadly we (or at least I) don't know enuf, but they're surely interrelated
    Bellily Millar: vulnerability is the antithesis of us-vs-them
    Maxine Walden: For me true empathy requires the experience of being held in mind...to trigger a feeling that is other than miming, even with mirror neurons
    Paul Namiboo: I used to think TV and the web would bind Homo sapiens into a single us -- but now I'm not so sure. But look how easily the diversity of PaB attendeed has sort of made a "family"
    Bellily Millar: smiling at paul
    Wol Euler: depends where you look to see that "diversity", Paul. In some respects we are a very homogenous group.
    Paul Namiboo: I agree Maxine
    Maxine Walden: yes, perhaps a common task, but also a kind of trust that our differences will enrich rather then divide
    Bellily Millar: agree maxine
    Maxine Walden: agree, Wol. And what makes for our homogeneity? Trust?
    Wol Euler nods. That trust is itself one of our defining commonalities, IMHO
    Bertram Jacobus: differences are diversity ...
    Mickorod Renard: I agree Wol,,trust here is odd,,but real I think
    Paul Namiboo: The world often seems to be bimpodal -- those of us who prize diversity, and thos who can't stand it
    arabella Ella: i think a great deal has to do with trust, honesty, empathy and good will
    Wol Euler nods
    arabella Ella: but i think a lot of the us versus them issues arise as a result of a variety of agendas, some hidden, others not
    Bertram Jacobus: i see diversity simply as a fact first
    arabella Ella: i love diversity
    arabella Ella: unity in diversity to be more precise
    Maxine Walden: and perhaps not being enslaved by the fantasy that difference is 'bad', the 'not me' carrying all my unwanted parts
    Paul Namiboo: Uniformity is sooo boring
    Bertram Jacobus: yes ara :-)
    Wol Euler: yes, maxine, well said.
    Mickorod Renard: I think most of us here share inquisitive minds,,maybe that is a common factor

    2009.09.08 13:00 - We Arrive, Appreciate and Go 

    Eos Amaterasu: there's mixed RL and SL - as Paradise said, sometimes phrases arrive out of order
    Eos Amaterasu: plus we often have several conversations going, interweaving
    Pila Mulligan: are you a-synching into a rabbit hole?
    Eos Amaterasu: plus we can look up immediate past, scroll back
    Eos Amaterasu: not to mention googling and reading old logs
    Eos Amaterasu: and then every now and then just being here :-)
    Paradise Tennant: google and wiki .. so we have ginormous brains ..it is all good

    2009.09.08 19:00 - Slightly weird but delightful 

    Isadora Davidov: Emptiness is the word in English most often used in translating the term sunyata (Sanskrit)...although some do not prefer the term, because it may lead some to an incorrect nihilistic interpretation.
    Isadora Davidov: It refers to the ultimate status of persons and phenomena
    Isadora Davidov: Both persons (people) and phenomena (objects, situations, thoughts) are "empty" of a permanent, inherently self-existent nature...they arise due to causes and conditions...so that is their relative status, ultimately they are said to "empty of" a permanent self-existent naturef-existent,
    Yakuzza Lethecus: wb :)
    Isadora Davidov: Is that helpful?
    Bertram Jacobus: i know these explanations , yes ...
    Isadora Davidov: Oh OK...
    Bertram Jacobus: may be the others too ? :-) / but nice that you have them in mind isa :-)
    Isadora Davidov: So you mean what is it like to experience emptiness directly? also there are other points of view which concern "emptiness"
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. that was the thought. to experience it.
    Isadora Davidov: Oh...!! Yes, well there are metaphors....but I agree that would be more or less ineffable...the collapse of subject/object duality...

    Isadora Davidov: Oh, by the way, Bertram: the terms I used etc...and the point of view, is Mahayana Madyamika (Prasangika) ...so of course there are other views and now I see you might have been speaking from another view.re other views

    Isadora Davidov: Umm...well, I have heard from one teacher that at the moment one realizes emptiness directly...it's like pouring water into water an all appearances collapse...

    Fefonz Quan: yes, this ultimate-relative issue is trickey
    Fefonz Quan: about time - it is said that from the 'ultimate' point of view, there is no linear time evolving
    Isadora Davidov: Oh...thank you...yes...although I can read and even say it...I'm stuck in the linear mostly!
    Fefonz Quan: so a kind of 'no-space no-time no-self ' is what we are talking about
    Isadora Davidov: Have you a method of experiencing that?
    Bertram Jacobus: for me it´s helpful to know that also time is relative ...
    Fefonz Quan: or in the words of the heart sutra - no suffering, no end of suffering, and no path

    Fefonz Quan: and focusing no the now, as basic and cliche as it sounds, does make miracles sometimes
    Isadora Davidov: Yes, my regular samsara
    Fefonz Quan: on the now *
    Isadora Davidov: YEs, yes...very good!
    Fefonz Quan: we did one of these kind in the RL retreat, as you may recall, Isadora
    Isadora Davidov: time experiment?
    Fefonz Quan: yes, the stage with dropping the personal history
    Isadora Davidov: Right...now I remember...
    Bertram Jacobus: sounds very interesting : is that possible ? to drop personal history ?
    Fefonz Quan: you can try it Bert: first, contemplate for a couple of minuts your personal history, without getting attached or judgemental about it.
    Fefonz Quan: Then, contemplate on who you are, but while dropping the history behind and focus on now
    Bertram Jacobus: i see. but sounds easier to me then to be done (!) (?) :-)
    Fefonz Quan: In a way, when you are engaged in some action wholly, you don't have time/will to bring up your personal history to the playground

    Isadora Davidov: You have no doubt already developed some perspective on what has happened to you and what made you "who" you are...that is the basis of our normal everyday life experience
    Bertram Jacobus: how was your experience with that ?
    Isadora Davidov: Me? Well...I categorized: the big tragedy, then the normal disasters and down the line so on...the large mistakes, the minor mistakes...etc
    Bertram Jacobus: (both) (?) :-)
    Fefonz Quan: For me,ii could partly see that i can let go of some of the past, see a space of freedom to act
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow/  how nice
    Isadora Davidov: Oh yes, that would be the good result
    Fefonz Quan: i am sure it needs more practice in order to make it more deep into daily life, not just for the exercise time interval

    2009.09.09 19:00 - Play as Me 

    SophiaSharon Larnia: usually when I am emotionally invested in what I am trying to say, I make more mistakes


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