2009.09.07 19:00 - How would we know multiple dimensions?

The Guardian for this meeting was Threedee Shepherd. The comments are by Threedee Shepherd.

Threedee Shepherd: I was just reading stuff about quantum mechanics (which I actually once took a course in), for which a good explanation is that there really ARE more than the three dimensions of space and one of time
Paradise Tennant: love quantum mechanics
Paradise Tennant: 11 right ?
Threedee Shepherd: I have no problems with the probabilistic aspects of QM on the scale of things like electrons. I am uncomforetable extending it, though, as are many.
Threedee Shepherd: maybe 11 maybe 14, but I only know 4
Paradise Tennant: hmm you only sense four but time .. you cannot sense really ..except by cues...liked brtane greene's the elegant universe loved the series too particularly the scene with the dog learning physics to a large extent that is us too
Threedee Shepherd: I am a pragmatist. That is, I want an explanation (such as lots of dimensions) to have some impact on the way I can predict my experiences.
Threedee Shepherd: Where I define "my experience" as broadly as possible to include all the instruments we make
Threedee Shepherd: I am happy to understand this: Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
Paradise Tennant: be kind of boring if everything was predictable .. love the randomness of phenomena in general
Paradise Tennant: not sure about that
Threedee Shepherd: Not predictable in a purely deterministic sense. More in a sense that if I accept explanation X, I have a better understanding of the experience of Y and Z. For example...
Paradise Tennant: listened to a great show ..by a time expert ..who thinks it is more like geography .. this moment exists somewhere like a hill .. but we move on ..
Threedee Shepherd: As an adult, there is nothing I experience that requires me to posit a "tooth fairy"
Paradise Tennant: and if you it does .. it is better .. allowing for a better understanding of y and z
Benedizione Vita: and the lion shall lay down with the lamb ;^)
Paradise Tennant: hiya bene we are talking quantum mechanics :)
Benedizione Vita: that's incredibly ironic
Benedizione Vita: I was about to say
Benedizione Vita: I am logged in, but I won't actually be watching my screen
Paradise Tennant: kk
Benedizione Vita: because I have a quantum mechanics problem set due tomorrow ;^)
Paradise Tennant: well there you go :))
Threedee Shepherd: Bohm proposed an underlying reality that is the basis of such synchronicity
Paradise Tennant: sort of think the only that explains our experiences is lots of dimensions :)
Paradise Tennant: *are
Threedee Shepherd: OK, I would like to hear of your experiences that lead you to that conclusion
Paradise Tennant: *thing :)))
Paradise Tennant: synchronicity for example - we have all experienced it
Threedee Shepherd: We have all experienced coincidence. It is so rare that we forget all the moments in which we do not. Mere chance satisfies me as an explanation.
Paradise Tennant: ok
Paradise Tennant: hmmm
Paradise Tennant: sometimes you just know things with no logical way to explain it .have you had that experience
Threedee Shepherd: we have remarkable powers of memory that can appear as just knowing due to some prior experience in which we were making no effort to "memorize". I could give examples
Paradise Tennant: ok
--BELL--
Threedee Shepherd: I am not trying to be "difficult", really :D I am open to new ideas, and I READ fantasy and Sci-fi, which is different from thinking that is the way the world works.
Paradise Tennant: there have been jsome remarkable twin studies that suggest there are links beyond .. what we understand .. in their ability to experience and sense what the other is going throught even if they are half way around the globe :)
Paradise Tennant: *though
Paradise Tennant: I had a brother die in an accident ..the night he died .. I was dreaming he was trying to call me ... when I was awakened in the middle of the night by the phone .. it was my dad .. the first thing I said to him was "jeff " is dead .. if that very personal experience had not happened I would be more skeptical too .. but .. I belive the only logical thing we can truly comprehend is how little we know ..
Threedee Shepherd: I am aware of such studies. I put them in the "not proven" rather than true or false category for now. And even IF these is such extra-sensory perception, I do not need extra dimensions to accept it.
Paradise Tennant: we are caged by our very limited senses .. that just don't capture all the info that is there
Paradise Tennant: for years I have done predictive analysis .. I always start with three columns what I need to know ..what I think I know and what I really know and shuffle data about .. invariably is an exercise in coming nose to nose with our ignorance
Threedee Shepherd: I agree, and I do not deny your experience. I think of such things as due to forces (electromagnetism is a force, as is gravity) that we do not understand, nat as extra dimensions
Paradise Tennant: hmm up down .. back forward side to side .. very simple dimensions . not sure time qualifies ..
Paradise Tennant: often think maybe reality is like layers .. like an onion we are only one .. circle of the onion .. there are lots more
Threedee Shepherd: Yes, there is trouble with conceptualizing time. However, change is obvious, and that is a good start
Paradise Tennant: what would consitute proof in your mind ..clearly more than the math
Threedee Shepherd: Perhaps, like layers. Or reality just IS. There are experiences and phenomena that I/humans do not understand. I still ground them in reality.
Paradise Tennant: what if we really are like the black lab trying to learn a complex .. physics formula and not getting it because we just don't have the right kind of brain
Threedee Shepherd: What is it you are asking me about that I want proof for--multiple dimensions?
Paradise Tennant: yes what would consitute proof .. for you being able to perceive them ?
Threedee Shepherd: No, I need not perceive them. I would accept that there is some phenomenon that I do perceive--that I cannot otherwise explain--when an extra dimension that is proposed appears to me to be a parsimoneous solution.
--BELL--
Paradise Tennant: do you believe the big ban theory ?
Threedee Shepherd: Not yet, I have trouble with dark matter and dark energy, which are unobserved to date and which make up "80%" of the theory
Threedee Shepherd: Actually, my issue is worse than that. I cannot imagine an answer--based on any cosmology theory--to the question of where it all came from in the first place.
Paradise Tennant: and the amazing .. reality of the very very tiny .. suggests .. a different world
Paradise Tennant: that particles move back and forth in time .. act differently when observed . can be two places at once ..
Threedee Shepherd: And any answer that involves some kinfd of "infinity" is beyond my comprehension, even if I understand the words.
Paradise Tennant: all rather odd
Threedee Shepherd: Yes, those quantum phenomena are odd. We may never "understand" them, only be able to manipulate them
Paradise Tennant: but we are made up of the very very very tiny ..so we must be odd too
Threedee Shepherd: If Einstein and Bohr could not "understand" those phenomena, who am I to try ^.^
Paradise Tennant: hmm
Threedee Shepherd: I can't swim in a water molecule, I can in a pool.
Paradise Tennant: I think we are odder than we let on :))
Paradise Tennant: ever read the self aware universe by amit goswami .. interesting read
Threedee Shepherd: no, I have not
Paradise Tennant: brian greene's the fabric of hte cosmos and the elegant universe are very interesting too
Paradise Tennant: leaves .. going hmmmmm
Paradise Tennant: *you
Threedee Shepherd: A *problem* with the evolution of consciousness is that because it allows us to ask questions, we believe those questions are meaningful or useful, rather than just fantasy.
Paradise Tennant: but if there is no infinity .. what is outside the box of reality ?
Paradise Tennant: what happens at the edges
Paradise Tennant: how could it just stop
Threedee Shepherd: Agreed, and if there is infinity, what does that mean?
Paradise Tennant: well that logic flows ..
Paradise Tennant: and there is logic ..
--BELL--
Threedee Shepherd: actually, it seems to me to be more analogy, ana-logic, that logic, when I try to comprehend infinity
Paradise Tennant: to our experential experience ..that binds it to the amazing conundrum of what is being observed in the realm of the very tiny
Paradise Tennant: I think it is easy .. we are part of it
Threedee Shepherd: OK, a question then is, given we are a part of the multidimensionality--so what? What will I do when I wake up tomorrow that is different than if I do not accept those ideas?
Paradise Tennant: you will smile and surrender to an amazing totality ..
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Threedee Shepherd: Well, I will get up, check my e-mail, eat....and simply accept the fantasticness of life.
Paradise Tennant: yes!
Paradise Tennant: but more than accept ..surrender
Paradise Tennant: respect .. be in awe
Paradise Tennant: ;)
Paradise Tennant: that you are a walking talking .. community of atoms spun together in pure magic .. to be conscious
Threedee Shepherd: OK, in one sense I do, and yet, awe can be aw-ful or aw-some
Paradise Tennant: :)
Paradise Tennant: both are good
Threedee Shepherd: both are. Good/bad is my local and personal invention of reality ;D
Paradise Tennant: well awful and awesome are the same thing intense .. impermanent .. often what seems great is not so great and what seems awful is not so awful
Paradise Tennant: i find it much easy because I believe there is a "beyond" me .. surrendering to what is ..being mind of it .. appreciating it ..even if it is not what I think I would like
Threedee Shepherd: yup. One thing I like to say is: We are all just folks, trying to make it through the day..."
Paradise Tennant: lol
Paradise Tennant: yep
Paradise Tennant: hmm
Paradise Tennant: should be more than making it through the day .. should be .. in tune with the moment ..
Paradise Tennant: what ever the moment is
Threedee Shepherd: I taught Descartes because "I think therefore I am" so pervades our cultural assumptions, but I rather LIKE montaigne who said "What can I know?"
Paradise Tennant: me too ..
Paradise Tennant: makes me believe .. more in a way
Threedee Shepherd: Ok," we are all just folks, making it in the moment" works too
Paradise Tennant: lol
Paradise Tennant: perfect
Paradise Tennant: what I do know is that I have an early morning tomorrow if I want to be in tune with it .. I will have to scoot and get some sleep .thanks very kindly for the conversation :))
Paradise Tennant: be well .. :))
Threedee Shepherd: I will end now and go off to other moments, so g';night and thanks for the thoughts :)
Paradise Tennant: good nite :)) thank you