In close succession, NeitherNorist and Stim dropped by. NeitherNorist gave us another occasion to make sure that Dakini had made the attic trap proof. Instead he more or less dropped in my lap.
IM: NeitherNorist Ohl: I am lost. I can’t find the place
Pema Pera: I’ll give you a tp
Pema Pera: Greetings!
Pema Pera: How’s life?
NeitherNorist Ohl: Good evening
Pema Pera: Hi Stim
Stim Morane: Hi
NeitherNorist Ohl: Sorry, I didn’t get in with the best manner
Pema Pera: that’s fine!
Pema Pera: At least you didn’t get stuck in the ceiling
Pema Pera: that used to be the case ;>)
NeitherNorist Ohl: lol
NeitherNorist Ohl: hi Stim
NeitherNorist Ohl: I’m NN
Stim Morane: Hello, nice to meet you
NeitherNorist Ohl: same here
Pema Pera: ww drew in NN
Pema Pera: wuwei ;>)
NeitherNorist Ohl: I’m new to SL, new to PaB
NeitherNorist Ohl: hence NN
Pema Pera: many abbreviations here in SL :)
NeitherNorist Ohl: indeed
Pema Pera: Stim, NN was at my talk at Columbia University
Pema Pera: a couple weeks ago
Pema Pera: and was intrigued by me mentioning wuwei
Pema Pera: and then we met in RL
Pema Pera: and after that in SL
Pema Pera: NN, Stim is my long-time collaborator
Pema Pera: on all things reality-like (^_^)
NeitherNorist Ohl: I see, like what stuff?
NeitherNorist Ohl: like in the lab?
Pema Pera: well, Stim?
Pema Pera: Life as a Lab, yes
Pema Pera: Ways of Knowing, and Kira
NeitherNorist Ohl: I see
NeitherNorist Ohl: is this another SL thing you are running?
Pema Pera: no
Pema Pera: this is our first SL appearance
Pema Pera: I started regularly coming in around Christmas
Pema Pera: and Stim just a week or so ago
Stim Morane: Sorry, I was working on something else for a minute. I’m just catching up with you.
Pema Pera: very SL like ;>)
Stim Morane: It’s more just a sign of being tired and distracted
Pema Pera: I know, you’ve had a full weekend!
NeitherNorist Ohl: I’m still learning about SL
NeitherNorist Ohl: but for me pretty soon that excuse won’t do any more
NeitherNorist Ohl: Ha!
Pema Pera: NN, being new in SL may last months . . . unless you go in there fulltime
Pema Pera: there is so much to learn!
NeitherNorist Ohl: I’m relieved! so my excuse is valid for several more months
The conversation moved to the Play as Being exploration.
Pema Pera: Have you had a chance to play a little with the 9-sec idea?
NeitherNorist Ohl: not this week. for some reason this was a really busy weekend and everything else kind of fell on the wayside
NeitherNorist Ohl: it’s not a habit yet
Pema Pera: I guess that’s the main point
Pema Pera: the total time is minimal, like for brushing your teeth
Pema Pera: (^^)
NeitherNorist Ohl: I know, it’s not about the length of time, it’s about a habit
Pema Pera: in a way, the best time to try this out is when you are really really busy!
NeitherNorist Ohl: I know, except I forgot everything else when I’m busy!
Pema Pera: and you may think that the quality of what you do is terrible, awful
Pema Pera: and yes
Pema Pera: that is true but . . . .
Pema Pera: . . . it may be more significant than very elated experiences in a longer sitting
Pema Pera: when you are quiet and peaceful
Pema Pera: the BIG challenge with any form of meditation is integration
Pema Pera: of whatever you learn in daily life.
Pema Pera: we here put the cart before the horse
Pema Pera: in a way
Pema Pera: by starting with integration
Pema Pera: before really getting into anything like meditation or contemplation
Pema Pera: but once the integration habit is formed
Pema Pera: the rest may be a lot easier . . . .
NeitherNorist Ohl: I see
NeitherNorist Ohl: Have you been practicing meditation for a long time?
Pema Pera: yes, in many forms
Pema Pera: but what I am suggesting here
Pema Pera: does not need any background
Pema Pera: I would almost say: it may be even easier if you don’t have any mediation background
Pema Pera: that way you may look at the whole thing with more fresh eyes
NeitherNorist Ohl: right, inexperience certainly has its own advantages
Pema Pera: meditation is not a goal in itself ; the point of meditation in some sense to go beyond meditation — like wu-wei, not doing — but such a statement can be easily misunderstood, and I don’t mean laziness or disrespect for serious efforts
Pema Pera: so traditionally you spend many years really practicing deeply
Pema Pera: and then you have to drop it all
Pema Pera: and go beyond
Pema Pera: my cart-before-hors upside-down method goes the other way ;>)
Pema Pera: first drop any attempt to meditate
Pema Pera: forget about it
Pema Pera: just stop 9 seconds out of a quarter of an hour
Pema Pera: and see what happens
Pema Pera: once you see what happens, we can talk about it here
Pema Pera: and take it from there
Stim Morane: Sorry I can’t stay, I have to attend another VR meeting in a few minutes… anyway, it was nice to see you both. Goodbye!
Pema Pera: Bye Stim!
NeitherNorist Ohl: bye
After Stim left, the two of us continued talking about learning and unlearning.
NeitherNorist Ohl: don’t you think it is kind of strange that you learn something, and then have to unlearn it in order to really get it
Pema Pera: no, that is not strange
Pema Pera: take a jazz musician
Pema Pera: learning to play a musical instrument
Pema Pera: all the technicalities
Pema Pera: and finally she/he can play in a jam session in complete abandonment
Pema Pera: in fact, learning a language is the same
Pema Pera: a second language especially
Pema Pera: you learn grammar and words
Pema Pera: and then you just use it
Pema Pera: effortlessly
Pema Pera: wuwei
NeitherNorist Ohl: but I don’t think learn those skills (music instrument or second language) is just learning about technicalities
Pema Pera: initially I guess that is how you approach it
NeitherNorist Ohl: But I think, for example, learning a second language, we don’t just learn to express ourselves in another language. rather we learn something we might not even be able to express in our native langugage
NeitherNorist Ohl: learning reshapes us, in a way that involves more than technicalities. maybe when we try to unlearn it, what is unlearned is technicalities, but something else retains
Pema Pera: I agree, the metaphor between seeing into reality and learning a language is far from perfect
Pema Pera: but the not-doing, the wuwei aspect is there in both cases
Pema Pera: first you feel you do something, it takes effort
Pema Pera: and then it becomes more and more easy and natural, frictionless
NeitherNorist Ohl: that can be understood as a case of embodiment
NeitherNorist Ohl: I remember you said that to know reality or to see it involves giving up, abandoning, etc.
Pema Pera: yes, indeed!
Pema Pera: And wuwei is a form of abandonment
Pema Pera: But metaphors are tricky!
Pema Pera: Sometimes I contrast learning a language with looking into reality
Pema Pera: saying that learning a language is adding, and really seeing is subtracting . . . .
Pema Pera: . . . sorry to be confusing (^_^)
Pema Pera: but no metaphor is perfect
NeitherNorist Ohl: no, it makes good sense
Pema Pera: and they can do double duty.
NeitherNorist Ohl: but is seeing reality just a matter of “seeing”? Isn’t seeing also metaphorical?
Pema Pera: oh sure
Pema Pera: all words we use are approximations
Pema Pera: or not even that
Pema Pera: concepts cannot really get to the main thing
At that moment I noticed that somebody had approached the tea house, and was standing outside, so I invited him in. I then realized that I had met him before, at one of the zen sessions that Dakini leads, every day at 6 pm, nearby.
Pema Pera: Hi Bas!
Pema Pera: Would you like to join us?
Bas Curtiz: Namaste
Pema Pera: Namaste!
Bas Curtiz: /nods
Pema Pera: Come on in!
Pema Pera: Welcome
Bas Curtiz: thank u
NeitherNorist Ohl: Hi, Bas, I’m NN
Pema Pera: Were you just strolling by?
NeitherNorist Ohl: good to meet you
Bas Curtiz: Nice meeting u 2 too
Pema Pera: thanks!
Pema Pera: Same here
Bas Curtiz: So ehm
Bas Curtiz: What’s cooking?
Bas Curtiz: so to speak ;)
Pema Pera: water
Pema Pera: boiling
Pema Pera: for tea
Pema Pera: want a cup?
Pema Pera: just click on the teapot on the tray
We all had a cup of tea.
Bas Curtiz: my AV kinda like it
Bas Curtiz: :P
Pema Pera: haha
Pema Pera: yeah, pretty strong green tea
NeitherNorist Ohl: so, we were just starting to talk about language and its distortion on reality. i always wonder why though
Bas Curtiz: Especially English
Bas Curtiz: Kinda simplified language
Pema Pera: of misschien ook Nederlands?
Bas Curtiz: Nederlands is al wat beter
NeitherNorist Ohl: English is not special in that regard
Pema Pera: haha
Bas Curtiz: ;)
Pema Pera: NN, Bas speaks Dutch as well
NeitherNorist Ohl: I see
Pema Pera: Have you learned to peek into people’s profiles?
Pema Pera: NN is kinda new to SL
NeitherNorist Ohl: I haven’t done that yet
NeitherNorist Ohl: I’m in the SL to chat in this room :)
Pema Pera: you can do many things in this room
Pema Pera: And you see, Bas, the tea makes you float!
Bas Curtiz: Btw, is it ok I’m flying in above the surface now, since I got that tea?
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: it seems a side effect of the tea script
Bas Curtiz: lol
Pema Pera: it happens to the best of us :>)
Bas Curtiz winks
Bas Curtiz: But plz go on, with the language-discussion
Pema Pera: we were talking about a strange idea that we are pursuing her:
Pema Pera: ah, you’re grounded again!
Bas Curtiz: Down on earth :P
Pema Pera: the idea is to use 9 seconds every 15 minutes to stop what you’re doing
Pema Pera: as a kind of 1% time tax
Pema Pera: 1% of 15 minutes
Bas Curtiz listens
Pema Pera: as a type of exploration
Pema Pera: just to see how that changes the way you look at reality
Pema Pera: normally we are totally caught up in what we’re doing
Pema Pera: but what would happen if you poke some holes
Pema Pera: in your own habits?
Pema Pera: That’s the idea
Pema Pera: and here we talk about what happened when we try that
Pema Pera: http://playasbeing.wordpress.com/ is our web site
Bas Curtiz: Hmmm, I would say, in this 9 seconds..
Bas Curtiz: Ur mind takes over to say to u: Now go on, there’s plenty to do!
At this point NN had to leave, and Bas and I continued.
NeitherNorist Ohl: sorry, I need to go now. I’ll see you guys later
NeitherNorist Ohl: Bye
Pema Pera: bye NN
Pema Pera: good seeing you here
Pema Pera: I guess NN’s mind took your hint literally
Pema Pera: “Now go on, there’s plenty to do!”
Pema Pera: haha
Bas Curtiz: lol
Bas Curtiz: Indeeed…:O
Pema Pera: tea made your words powerful!
Bas Curtiz: But that’s the real fight if u ask me..
Bas Curtiz: To fight against ur patterns wired in ur brain
Bas Curtiz: The program you’re caught up by
Bas Curtiz: Esp. when u’re busy
Pema Pera: yes but the question is, with what method and then how to apply the method
Pema Pera: in most approaches that I know the focus is on the method
Pema Pera: in what I am suggesting here the focus is on the application
Pema Pera: if you do something simple very often
Pema Pera: it may be more effective than doing something complex occasionally
Bas Curtiz: No doubt about that
Pema Pera: so I am not so interested in what the method is frankly
Pema Pera: but more in frequency and continuity
Pema Pera: do something, anything, every 15 minutes, and your mind can let it alone . . . .
Pema Pera: then take it from there
Pema Pera: and once you have the 15 minute habit
Pema Pera: like a virus that has gotten under your skin
Pema Pera: you can improve what you do with that
Pema Pera: it’s a totally new and crazy idea
Pema Pera: but worth trying out I think
Pema Pera: we started just a couple weeks ago
Pema Pera: so we’ll see what happens ;>)
Bas then gave me a picture of an EmWave, a portable device, a kind of biofeedback-measure-system, measuring our HRV, Heart-Rhythm-Variable, to be worn on a thumb, in RL.
Pema Pera: have you used it?
Bas Curtiz: I’ve got one myself
Bas Curtiz: ’round about 175 euro
Bas Curtiz: But it’s worth it
Pema Pera: it measures rhythms?
Bas Curtiz: U actually can now SEE if u’re relaxed and not caught up in ur head
Pema Pera: interesting.
Bas Curtiz: And the funny part in this all…
Bas Curtiz: If u think on positive things
Bas Curtiz: U can be more in the zone…
Bas Curtiz: in a balance of ur HRV
Bas Curtiz: When for instance, u think, worrying, or bad feelings on one or another..
Bas Curtiz: It will display that real-time :O
Pema Pera: have you worked with it extensively?
Bas Curtiz: I do it everyday, regularly,
Bas Curtiz: but only when I’ve got time for it tho ;)
Pema Pera: haha, yes, time is always the problem . . . .
Bas Curtiz: And there comes the problem of al…
Bas Curtiz: Discipline
Pema Pera: yes exactly
Bas Curtiz: It’s like fighting against ur ”’natural behavior”
Bas Curtiz: But this ”natural behavior”
Bas Curtiz: is just learned thru social conditioning
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: we have trained for years, or been trained really, to do that social conditioning
Bas Curtiz: they have good side-effects tho
Pema Pera: sure, survival, culturally and physically
Bas Curtiz: but also less good side-effects…
Pema Pera: indeed!
Bas Curtiz: So also in this..
Bas Curtiz: Balance is the key
Pema Pera: exactly.
Pema Pera: and yes indeed,
Pema Pera: It starts in school:
Pema Pera: Do your homework!
Pema Pera: So were a child is told: do your homework
Pema Pera: I say: just do a little something
Pema Pera: just 9 sec
Pema Pera: The child can protest that (s)he has no interest in doing homework for an hour
Pema Pera: but I take away that excuse
We then talked about various attitudes concerning meditation.
Bas Curtiz: Look @ nature
Bas Curtiz: It’s perfectly imperfect
Pema Pera: yes, evolution
Bas Curtiz: That’s our best example if you ask me
Pema Pera: tinkering
Bas Curtiz: There is a pattern in it all
Bas Curtiz: A rhythm
Bas Curtiz: U can sense it
Bas Curtiz: When u’re in it
Bas Curtiz: But most of the times
Bas Curtiz: We sense we’re out of this rhyrhm
Bas Curtiz: like going too fast, or too slow
Pema Pera: yes, balance is key
Pema Pera: we were talking, NN and I, about wuwei, the Chinese idea of not-doing
Pema Pera: not doing something unnecessary
Pema Pera: something that causes friction
Bas Curtiz listens
Pema Pera: it is nice to listen to the crickets here, isn’t it?
Bas Curtiz: Yes, it’s soothing
Bas Curtiz: Like Osho would say:
Bas Curtiz: There’s only one medicine
Bas Curtiz: and that’s meditation
Pema Pera: and it comes in many forms
Pema Pera: sitting, moving, lying down, working
Pema Pera: sitting is easiest at first, perhaps
Bas Curtiz: I noticed for myself…
Bas Curtiz: Looking @ a wall, from very close…
Bas Curtiz: Seeing the texture, the patterns
Bas Curtiz: Is helpful
Pema Pera: yes, I can see how that helps to really focus and really see
Pema Pera: how did that feel for you?
Bas Curtiz: Refreshed
Bas Curtiz: Clear
Bas Curtiz: Energized
And we continued, from sight to sound.
Pema Pera: sometimes listening to a single sound — bird or even machine — can be interesting too
Bas Curtiz: Yup
Bas Curtiz: It was funny
Bas Curtiz: When walking in the city, where they were building stuff
Bas Curtiz: I heard the rhythm of some pill-driver
Bas Curtiz: And it was kinda..
Bas Curtiz: Peaceful
Pema Pera: you know, that is so interesting, that really rings a bell for me.
Pema Pera: The last week or so I’ve been terribly busy
Pema Pera: to the point of really not sleeping enough
Pema Pera: and one night I just kept going in order to finish a paper before a hard deadline
Pema Pera: and the next morning, in the hotel where I was sleeping
Pema Pera: just a few hours after I had gone to bed
Pema Pera: they started to make a lot of noise
Pema Pera: hammering schlepping whatever
Pema Pera: and to my great surprise it didn’t bother me at all
Pema Pera: it was like background music
Pema Pera: I was weaving in and out of sleep and either way was fine
Pema Pera: sleeping was okay
Pema Pera: dozing was okay
Bas Curtiz: Exactly
Pema Pera: I was too tired to care I guess
Pema Pera: but at the same time I learned to maneuver so to speak
Pema Pera: not enough energy to “do”
Pema Pera: my body and mind naturally found the way of “not-doing”
Bas Curtiz: Hmmm this time between being totally awake and dreaming
Bas Curtiz: Is when I found I had a good meditation
Bas Curtiz: Like ur there
Bas Curtiz: Everything is clear
Bas Curtiz: in sound and view
Bas Curtiz: but ur more distant from it
Bas Curtiz: and then again ur not
Bas Curtiz: a paradox
Bas Curtiz: like it doesn’t matter if it is there
Bas Curtiz: it’s nice
Bas Curtiz: it’s doesnt affect u
Pema Pera: yes, so many dimensions . . . . .
Bas Curtiz: but u don’t deny it is there
Bas Curtiz: like trying to not hear it, or see it
Bas Curtiz: no, just as it is
Pema Pera: simple, but takes a while to get a taste
Bas Curtiz: funny part is…
Bas Curtiz: if u get to that moment…
Bas Curtiz: then all is good.
Bas Curtiz: like not esp. not caring.
Bas Curtiz: but like everybody has his/her own path to walk.
We ended on a good note, actually beyond good and bad.
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: but at the same time we can inspire each other
Pema Pera: sometimes you see something that you’d like to try
Pema Pera: and sometimes something that you want to avoid
Pema Pera: ;>)
Bas Curtiz: funny part is..
Bas Curtiz: that’s a misconception of ur brain
Bas Curtiz: like there’s good, or bad
Bas Curtiz: social conditioning
Bas Curtiz: in this society, yes, it bad to kill someone
Bas Curtiz: but that’s this social-system
Bas Curtiz: only if that exists…
Bas Curtiz: you can say it is bad
Pema Pera: I agree that ultimately there is the challenge to go beyond good and bad . . . . but that notion can also lead to many misunderstandings, and if one tries to do that prematurely, one can do a lot of harm.
Bas Curtiz: and within’ that..
Bas Curtiz: we learn
Bas Curtiz: experiencing
Bas Curtiz: what has consequences
Bas Curtiz: in a ”good” or ”bad” way
Bas Curtiz: but in the end..
Bas Curtiz: we don’t feel like killing at all
Bas Curtiz: coz it’s all good
Bas Curtiz: just as it is
Pema Pera: that would be ideal, yes.
Pema Pera: Well, I’m afraid I have to go now
Pema Pera: RL is calling . . .
Pema Pera: Good talking with you, Bas!
Pema Pera: Thanks for stopping by.
Bas Curtiz: viceversa ;)
Pema Pera: yw!
Bas Curtiz: and remember:
Bas Curtiz: it’s all good
Pema Pera: that’s a great thing to remember, I agree!
Bas Curtiz: just feel the soothing in ur stomach
Bas Curtiz: the vibe
Bas Curtiz: of life
Pema Pera: Thank you!
Pema Pera: see you!
