2014.10.20 12:00 - How to care

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Raffi
Aphrodite Macbain: glad u made it
Raffila Millgrove: Hey Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: Wester!
Aphrodite Macbain: How great to see you
Raffila Millgrove: Hi Wester
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, folks!
Raffila Millgrove: Hi Bruce.
Wester Kiranov: hi all
Aphrodite Macbain: This is a rare pleasure
Aphrodite Macbain: How is everyone?
Bruce Mowbray: a bit frustrated at the moment...
Bruce Mowbray: trying to get a new external hard drive to work...
Aphrodite Macbain: You seem to be missing an arm
Bruce Mowbray: taking a break from that to be here.
Bruce Mowbray: How are you?
Bruce Mowbray: Who is the "you" that seems to be missing an arm? I count everyone as having two arms....
Aphrodite Macbain: you is Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Kori!
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Korel
Bruce Mowbray: I count two arms on myself.
Aphrodite Macbain: how odd
Aphrodite Macbain: (i mean even)
Bruce Mowbray: Does anyone else see me as missing an arm?
Korel Laloix: No.. but I could not see my hair yesterday.
Bruce Mowbray: I can wear the right one.
Aphrodite Macbain: hiya druth
Bruce Mowbray: But I COULD see Kori's hair yesterday, so go figure.
Korel Laloix: SL is being its amazing self as normal.
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, druth!
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks for coming
Korel Laloix: Osiyo
druth Vlodovic: hey guys
Wester Kiranov: computer is very slow
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder whether we should start....
Bruce Mowbray: Sure, let's start (my vote).
Korel Laloix: Sure...
druth Vlodovic: the alternative is interesting but rarely exciting
Aphrodite Macbain: kk lol
Aphrodite Macbain: I received an email from Bruce the other day that enclosed a poem.
Aphrodite Macbain: This is what it said:
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully.
Aphrodite Macbain:

"Grandpa" Joseph Bruchac

The old man must have stopped our car two dozen times to climb out and gather into his hands the small toads blinded by our lights and leaping, live drops of rain. The rain was falling, a mist about his white hair and I kept saying you can't save them all, accept it, get back in we've got places to go. But leathery hands full of wet brown life, knee deep in the summer roadside grass, he just smiled and said they have places to go to too.

Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes. A fine sentiment in that poem.
Aphrodite Macbain: Bruce says he breaks for animals on the road
Bruce Mowbray: wb, Wester.
Bruce Mowbray: I said that, yes.
Aphrodite Macbain: and he's stopped a few times to help turtles hasten their journeys across country roads.
Bruce Mowbray: nods, yes.
Aphrodite Macbain: wb Wester. I've just posted a poem
druth Vlodovic: lol, I suppose "practical" depends on what we really wish to accomplish
Aphrodite Macbain: This poem inspired me to think about caring and for whom or what we should care
Wester Kiranov: posted where?
Aphrodite Macbain: in this chat log Wester
Aphrodite Macbain: I'll post it again if u like:
Bruce Mowbray: [I will send Wester a copy through IM....]
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: So I sent out an email to all of us saying:

" Mahayana path of Buddhism cultivates a completely unbiased love and compassion, caring equally for every being including nonhuman beings such as animals. Normally, we care for our friends and relatives and helping them may set others against us. Or we care for our race and set ourselves against other races or cultures. Or we care for humans and subjugate animals in order to make life better for mankind. All of this is the usual way of biased thought.

The Mahayana approach is to care equally for any sentient being (which is any being who has a mind). This is because practitioners realize that since beginningless time, each and every being has had the same basic wish to find happiness and to be free from suffering. In that respect, all beings are the same and therefore we try to help them equally."

My question for us on Monday is whether we are capable of caring equally for all sentient beings. What is realistically possible for us and how much of this is idealism?

Aphrodite Macbain: Listens...
druth Vlodovic: I suppose the biggest block is "once burned twice shy"
Korel Laloix: I think the question is wrong.
Raffila Millgrove: Since I am not a practitioner of Mahayana approach to Buddhism or of Buddhism at all, I don't think that every being has the same basic wish. Whether an ant wishes to escape suffering and be happy.. I don't think so. So rejecting that basic premise I am not going to worry about every sentient being. I happen to think plants are as sentient as an ant.
Bruce Mowbray also listens
Korel Laloix: if you try to make everyone happy you will annoy everyone and make no one happy.
Wester Kiranov: i think there is a problem that you can only practically care for beings nearby
Wester Kiranov: you may feel everybody worthy of care, but you can't care for all
Aphrodite Macbain: maybe not practically but conceptually or emotionally?
Bruce Mowbray wonders why "practicality" is brought into a discussion about compassion....
druth Vlodovic: practicality is hard on idealism :/
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray: Xir!

Aphrodite Macbain: Hello Xiri
Xirana Oximoxi: hello everyone! :)

Aphrodite Macbain: I think I can care for things beyond my physical experience
Korel Laloix: And sometimes the best way to love someone long term is to give them a good knock short term.

Aphrodite Macbain: give them a good knock short term.=?

Korel Laloix: If you continue to let someone self destruct and do nothing, do you actually love them?
Aphrodite Macbain: good question Kori
 

Wester Kiranov: and in fact, the human brain is such that is cares much more easily for single persons than for groups as both Stalin and Sister Theresa noticed

Bruce Mowbray wants to hear what both Sister Theresa and Stalin noticed.
Bruce Mowbray: Oh. that about noticing single individuals. sry.

Raffila Millgrove: compassion is only on paper or in the mind if there is no practical demonstration of it. I am in the camp of action being more meaningful than words.
druth Vlodovic: can you be said to emotionally and morally believe in something while allowing as many exceptions as examples?
Aphrodite Macbain: I think one can strive ...
Aphrodite Macbain: feels a little overwhelmed by the varied responses
Korel Laloix: You should love everyone, but how that actually shows up is different person to person.
Bruce Mowbray: There is no guarantee that things won't turn out badly. When they do, I learn, and I learn at a level that makes a similar occurrence unlikely.
Wester Kiranov agrees with Aph
druth Vlodovic: the answer for Korel is that compassion and soft-handedness aren't the same, as any parent can tell you

Sentience

Aphrodite Macbain: I think I can even care for non-sentient beings- like the planet - an eco-consciousness
Korel Laloix: Oh I agree.
druth Vlodovic: like trying to pick fruit along its proper spot on the stem without damaging the stem. I even have trouble pruning lol
Wester Kiranov: yes, the focus on sentient beings is somewhat discriminatory
Aphrodite Macbain: When I say "care for", I don't necessarily mean love.
Korel Laloix: And I also agree with Raffi, the strange typing of sentient in this case is odd to me.
Aphrodite Macbain: lol druth
Korel Laloix: Why would someone consider a mosquito more deserving of respect than a Sequoia tree?
Aphrodite Macbain: does size matter?
Aphrodite Macbain: I don't think this is about who deserves our caring

Bruce Mowbray: They are both equally "deserving" . . . of our reverence ... but it's not about "doing equanimity" -- as if all stones were of equal weight and so carry them ALL!

Aphrodite Macbain: nods at Bruce

Aphrodite Macbain: Eos had some observations on this subject he sent in an email
Bruce Mowbray: yes, excellent points made by Eos.
Aphrodite Macbain:

"I won’t be able to be there tomorrow, but to me this means something like:how do I go about caring for sentient beings in daily life, like right now? ... probably starting with me and what’s right next to me :-)"

Korel Laloix: But the definition above says that mosquito is deserving and a Sequoia is not.

Wester Kiranov: because we were talking about sentient beings
Aphrodite Macbain: Do we care for the well being of our neighbours?
Bruce Mowbray: I do not mean to be obtuse, Aph, but it doesn't feel like a "doing" thing to me; it feels like a being/becoming thing.
Aphrodite Macbain: More from Eos re this:

Which also brings up, “what is a sentient being”? The classic buddhist take is that at its heart there is both clarity and care, expressed as union of emptiness, compassion, and clear seeing (prajna). Maybe that means you’ve dropped (perhaps just momentarily) your own stuff and are in an instant raw and caring and just there. And that goes a long way back, and across many forms of life-ing.

Aphrodite Macbain: Being open and caring to all sentient beings
Aphrodite Macbain: for me begins with awareness
Aphrodite Macbain: sensitivity
Bruce Mowbray: for sure, it does, Aph.
Wester Kiranov has to stop a four-legged sentient being from typing.
Korel Laloix: I prefer to care for plants as well.
Aphrodite Macbain: me too
Aphrodite Macbain: I don't think this excludes non sentient beings Kori

Caring

Bruce Mowbray: Is "caring" a preference, after all?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: maybe
Wester Kiranov: i also feel caring is a practical thing, a caring FOR
Raffila Millgrove: but what is this "caring". As a Christian I am commanded to love all and I find plenty of people quite unlovable and it's very hard to show them love.
Wester Kiranov: a choice
Aphrodite Macbain: I prefer to care for the well-being of this earth, but in order to do that we need to drop our egocentrism
Aphrodite Macbain: nods and agrees with Raffi-
Aphrodite Macbain: who says it was going to be easy?

Aphrodite Macbain:

"However, because of anticipations and fears and pre-judgments (of which we may be initially ignorant) it is indeed difficult to be completely open (the everyday practice). However, that openness (and waking up to each instance of that lack) is probably the most realistic path and curriculum for developing the loving-kindness equanimity that your question requests" - Eos

Doris

Raffila Millgrove: when i was in elementary school a girl named Doris was very smelly and untidy and no one liked her.. and my teacher told me to stop eating lunch with her and being nice to her because it was going to kill me socially with the rest and I said.. i had to do it.. because no one else would do it. and eventually i agreed to only do it 3 days a week. the whole thing was.. asinine.. i still struggle with similar decisions.
Bruce Mowbray: I feel that it is something that beckons us.... It's not a matter of choice. It is not that we "seize it" (as in Carpe diem); it seizes us. The moment seizes us. The compassion for any and all beings is spontaneous. (my two bits.)
Aphrodite Macbain: nods- this all has also to do with our own "moral code" I suppose
Wester Kiranov: i think we still allow ourselves to be seized - or not
Bruce Mowbray relates very powerfully to Raffi's "I had to do it."
druth Vlodovic: giving up the caring for others at the demand of others is to sap your own strength and identity
Raffila Millgrove: you know why i struggle so much still? Not because Doris didn't deserve it or was unworthy.. but because I don't think it mattered, to her, to life in general to anything. I think it was trying to live out ethics.. trying to be like Jesus and i have never figured out if it had any good benefit for anyone at all. esp for Doris.
Bruce Mowbray: It's really not about Doris, though, is it?
Aphrodite Macbain: Nods. But you have obviously developed a caring for others otherwise it wouldn't have bothered you Raffi
druth Vlodovic: on some level I'm sure it strengthened her, though the result may or may not be obvious
Raffila Millgrove: yeah actually that is exactly my point. supposedly it was about her. to be kind to her.. so she would feel happier and loved. it is about everyone. and no one seem to benefit in that deal.
druth Vlodovic: well, you did

Aphrodite Macbain: Can you care about people who are our so-called enemies? Members of ISIS for example?
Bruce Mowbray: My point: It's not about the results of our actions, or the fruits of our labors.
Bruce Mowbray: while we darn better care about ISIS.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods- we do it because we morally must
Korel Laloix: You can love people in general just hate what they do.
druth Vlodovic: you can care about someone, and even have compassion for them, even while defending yourself
Raffila Millgrove: i just disagree so much. no i didn't feel happier, Doris didn't care, the teacher was upset with me. i got zero good out of it.. and i am still thinking about the whole point of these things.. 50 years later. they aren't all they are cracked up to be. this compassionate attitude.
druth Vlodovic: kind of waters down your response though
Bruce Mowbray: Raffi, these "things" are grist for the mill of your own development . . . and, of course, of my own, and of everyone's.
druth Vlodovic: think how much weaker your character would be if you'd given in, or chalk it up to a "learning experience" and let it pass
Aphrodite Macbain:

Eos: I think we are more capable of caring “for all" than we might think, but we think too much, and have given those thoughts a lot of power (like to turn people into demons), plus now we’re more than ever re-echoing them through all our media

Bruce Mowbray: (totally agree with Eos on that.)

Bruce Mowbray: and of the planet's, actually.

Aphrodite Macbain: nods- yes it would be good if we could get a wider view of things - a cosmological perspective rather than an egocentric one

Desirable outcomes, setting intentions

Raffila Millgrove: Today i think I should put my energies where I have some confidence they might really do some good for me or someone..and be clear that it's worth .. spending time to get a desirable outcome.

Bruce Mowbray: are you attached to the outcomes, Raffi?
druth Vlodovic: unfortunately Raffia, pinning your satisfaction and strength to results can end up with you being dependant on things beyond your control
Raffila Millgrove: yeah i think that having an outcome.. helps you do it a second time.. if it's too vague.. you aren't sure if your energy was spent wisely .. we don't have endless energy. i might have endless love but not the strength to put it out everywhere. choices matter.
Wester Kiranov: hear hear
Aphrodite Macbain: Why do we need outcomes? Is everything we do based on achieving an outcome?
Korel Laloix: For the most part, it should be.
Aphrodite Macbain: should?
Raffila Millgrove: I already know about money and charity. if you spend a small amount of money really carefully. you can do amazing stuff with tiny amounts. that's why choosing where to give the money can make a huge difference. outcomes do matter.
Korel Laloix: If you aren't looking for results, you are just doing it to make you feel better. Not do anything useful.
Aphrodite Macbain: why can't I do something without expecting a particular outcome?
Aphrodite Macbain: but just for the doing of it, because I care about someone
Wester Kiranov: you can do something with a particular intention and then let it go, but you do need some intention
Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm
Raffila Millgrove: well if i have a packet of heirloom seeds, believe me.. i am going to make careful choice about the outcome. how not to waste those seeds. I am not wasting my time or my energy. and outcomes let me know if i chose wisely or not.
Aphrodite Macbain: sometimes I do things simply for the pleasure it gives me to help someone
druth Vlodovic: I feel my xmas gift package story coming on...
Aphrodite Macbain: uh oh
Raffila Millgrove: lol tell us druth?
Aphrodite Macbain: does everything need to have a function?
Bruce Mowbray: Only in a mechanical world, Aph.
Korel Laloix: And practically looking at this... I see a lot of effort on reservations with no result or intent of result. The people doing the projects just do them to make themselves feel better and for political points.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Zen.
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Zen :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Zen!!
Zen Arado: Hi all
Aphrodite Macbain: welcome
Wester Kiranov: hi zen

Aphrodite Macbain: Zen I'll send you the notes I quoted
Korel Laloix: If they actually care about the reservations they would see what works, not throw money and run from us.
druth Vlodovic: eh, hard times, new town, the town had a xmas gift package program for low-incomes, I had a hard time feeling anything but miserable when they delivered it, and worried after how they took my lack of expression of gratitude
Korel Laloix: The reservations get huge dumps of money and are still the most poor places in the US.
Bruce Mowbray tries to read all the threads....
druth Vlodovic: in Canada the reservations get looted by so many people it's amazing anybody can live in some of them
Korel Laloix: Here nobody wants to live in them, especially the people trapped there.
druth Vlodovic: but that isn't about compassion so much as greed or naivety
Aphrodite Macbain: Is this a good reason to do nothing?
Aphrodite Macbain: we can always find reasons where generosity is abused
Korel Laloix: No, it's a good reason to do something with a real goal.
Bruce Mowbray: Is equanimity a gentle guideline or a hard-and-fast rule? If I adopt or accept a set of rules that tells me what to do, I'm no longer living that clarity (suggested by the gentle guideline.) I'm just following rules.
druth Vlodovic: lol, so suspicion becomes a necessary activator of charity
Korel Laloix: But that is not the point, there are times when generosity is fake and just done to make the giver happy about themselves with no difference to the supposed helped.
Zen Arado: agree about rules
Zen Arado: rules and ideologies, seeing what is necessary and doing it
Aphrodite Macbain: Cannot we do something loving without expecting something in return?
Korel Laloix: If there was a bottomless checkbook, yes.
Zen Arado: better I think
Aphrodite Macbain: we don't have to give money Kori there are many ways of caring. It can be as simple as listening to someone's story.
druth Vlodovic: they found that in some parts of Africa that sending food bankrupted local farmers and made the food shortage worse
Korel Laloix: Checkbook is not meant to mean just money.
Korel Laloix: Time, trouble, effort, etc.
druth Vlodovic: so you learn, adapt, and move on
Zen Arado: dangers of well meaning do-gooders
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps generosity has more to do with the needs of the giver than the needs of that person who receives the gift.
Zen Arado: yep
Aphrodite Macbain: nods

Korel Laloix: On reservations that is usually the case.
Wester Kiranov: i think that to do something really loving, you have to mean it to have a good result for the other person, and then do it without being attached to the outcome
Aphrodite Macbain: nods again
Korel Laloix: That sounds reasonable.
druth Vlodovic: the giver needs renewal, being human, but please don't start the whole "giving is selfish" thread again
Zen Arado: all just labels I think...I still don't know what compassion is...
Aphrodite Macbain: what do you think Xiri?
Raffila Millgrove: money can be incredibly valuable to someone.. if it's used.. in a way that will help them change the lives of their family forever. micro loans. If you give me 50,000 dollars I can report back to you that 100 families went from abject poverty to being able to support themselves and send their children to school. Money does matter, it's how it is used that makes the difference.
Xirana Oximoxi: when we relate with others there's always interaction...so, even if we do now have expectations, we receive some influences as well as we 'send' it too
druth Vlodovic: agreed wester
Aphrodite Macbain: nods at Xiri
Zen Arado: but compassion is action not nice feelings I think
Wester Kiranov: agree with zen
Korel Laloix: I would agree with that.
Xirana Oximoxi: yes...compassion is 'moving with'  'acting with'

Aphrodite Macbain: "feeling with"

Zen Arado: con-passion
Zen Arado: or co-passion

Aphrodite Macbain: I think much of this has to do with empathy - it is hard to be empathic about someone you don't know or like
Bruce Mowbray: Really, Aph?
Bruce Mowbray: I find it easier sometimes to be empathetic with someone I don't know well.
druth Vlodovic: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: ??
Korel Laloix: Never thought of the difference.
Aphrodite Macbain: why Bruce?
Zen Arado: humans are constructed that way I think..we naturally care more for ourselves and family
Bruce Mowbray: I love humanity, it's individuals I can't stand!
Wester Kiranov: how do you do that Bruce?
druth Vlodovic: we have fewer expectations and disappointments with strangers
Zen Arado: those we can do most for practically
Raffila Millgrove: that can be true... ever sat in an airplane and someone told you .. long story. you can "feel" for them because once you get up from that seat, you never have to see them again.
Aphrodite Macbain: sometimes it simply requires stopping and paying attention
Bruce Mowbray: If I may repeat an old cliché, "The only work we do is on ourselves."

Korel Laloix: never heard that one before.
Bruce Mowbray: it's really not about that person sitting next to us in the airplane, or about persons in Africa with Ebola... it's about the work we do on ourselves. That is what equanimity is all about.
Bruce Mowbray: on whom else could we possibly work?
Aphrodite Macbain: Equanimity=to treat everything equally
Aphrodite Macbain: equally well
Aphrodite Macbain: our sisters and our enemies.
Bruce Mowbray: If you maintain your own balance -- and I mean really be aware that -- then you will treat everything else equally.
Bruce Mowbray: and equally well.
druth Vlodovic: kind of cancels the advantage of being your friend
Aphrodite Macbain: that's the ideal Bruce
Zen Arado: if we realize we are all one. not separate individuals it makes compassion more natural and easy I think
Bruce Mowbray: It is both the ideal and the reality. Check your own experience! There it is.
Aphrodite Macbain: to be Bruce's friend do you need to feel unique and special?
Bruce Mowbray: oh no you don't!
Aphrodite Macbain: I was asking druth :-)
Wester Kiranov: this was very interesting but very tiring for me too. Thank you for the conversation but I will now leave.
Bruce Mowbray: know know know know know... no no no no no.
Wester Kiranov: bye
Zen Arado: bye Wester
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, dear Wester.
Xirana Oximoxi: bye Wester
druth Vlodovic: have fun wester
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks for joining us Wester - sorry it was tiring
druth Vlodovic: yes a bit of a hard discussions
Bruce Mowbray: It was not a bit tiring for moi.
Bruce Mowbray: but I feel that this is a subject that needs to be continued, for sure.
Korel Laloix: Ciao
Aphrodite Macbain: It's hard to speak when there are a lot of impassioned voices
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps the discussion is difficult because the practice is also difficult...
druth Vlodovic: what i meant is that if you treat your enemies as well as you do your friends then your enemies will feel easier about doing bad things to you
Bruce Mowbray: ?? They will?

Aphrodite Macbain: are you sure druth?
Aphrodite Macbain: they may feel guiltier once they see your softer side :-)

Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps next time we can go round the circle giving each 7 minutes...

Zen Arado: love your enemies ..
Bruce Mowbray: Jesus must of been wrong, then. he was probably one of those radical idealists.
Zen Arado: :) Bruce

Zen Arado: he certainly was radical
Bruce Mowbray: sorry about that.
Xirana Oximoxi: I think so, druth ... it's not easy to treat well and be friendly with people that tried to harm you...at least I cannot
Bruce Mowbray: ;)
druth Vlodovic: of course, there will be no consequences, if they were naturally nice they wouldn't have you for an enemy; all nice and reasonable people love me, for example
Bruce Mowbray: Part of my problem is that most of my sides are soft. I really need a harder backbone.
Aphrodite Macbain: I am sure there are many "nice" people who are my enemy
Bruce Mowbray: I'm not bragging; I'm serious.

Aphrodite Macbain: no- there is a well built backbone in there Bruce
Zen Arado: compassion can be tough
Aphrodite Macbain: lol druth
Bruce Mowbray: I don't dare go to New York or Chicago anymore because I will end up coming home broke. All those folks sitting on the sidewalks begging for money, you know. My typist is such a sucker.
Aphrodite Macbain: hard to turn the other cheek and love one's enemies
Bruce Mowbray: hard, but necessary, Aph.
Bruce Mowbray: if our species is to survive.
Zen Arado: don't go to India Bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: (FOR SURE, Zen!) although I feel that might be the very best thing I could do. . . in order to drop it all.
Aphrodite Macbain: we don't need to be mush-balls to be compassionate. We can still be practical and think critically and give wisely and care responsibly
Zen Arado: yes Aph
druth Vlodovic: you could give it all away and live on top of a pole and we will all bring you food
Bruce Mowbray totally agrees with half. That's what I meant by balance, earlier.
Aphrodite Macbain: The first step is simply to be aware of the world beyond ourselves
Bruce Mowbray: Aph* not half.
Bruce Mowbray: omg.
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: half an Aph

Begging

Zen Arado: I had a young African guy friend me on FB...after a little while he asked me for money
Bruce Mowbray: I have had exactly the same experience, Zen.
Bruce Mowbray: there seems to be a method to the madness about begging....
Aphrodite Macbain: perhaps we all have had those experiences, but we dont have to give $. We can simply listen and sympathize
Bruce Mowbray: folks in Third World countries feel that anyone who lives in Europe or America has got to be rich, right?
Zen Arado: sometimes when you give it is like opening a floodgate
Bruce Mowbray: so why not beg money from them?
Zen Arado: they want more
Bruce Mowbray: yes!
Bruce Mowbray: that is why balance is such an important element of the predicament. But equanimity is not a predicament; it is a calling.
Aphrodite Macbain: they probably wouldn't be begging if they didn't have to....
Zen Arado: rich Americanos
Bruce Mowbray: wealth is always relative..... but that's a rationalization. Don't go there.
Bruce Mowbray: Equanimity is something else altogether.
Zen Arado: I took out a 4 year donations contract with Tear Fund a few years ago..had to do that so they got the tax as well, but they were so angry when I stopped
Zen Arado: as if I had to keep giving

druth Vlodovic: greedy buggers
druth Vlodovic: they saw you as a sucker, not a human being

Aphrodite Macbain: needy and greedy

Next week

Aphrodite Macbain: What do people think about continuing this discussion next week?
Bruce Mowbray: yes yes yes yes!
Bruce Mowbray: I would very much like to continue it....
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) anyone else?
Bruce Mowbray: in both your session and in mine, Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: great Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: !!

Xirana Oximoxi: if I can I would come too, Aph! :)
Aphrodite Macbain: great Xiri
Zen Arado: it made me think

Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps there is as much elegance (or wisdom) to the act of receiving as the rest of the act of giving.
Bruce Mowbray: as there is to the act of giving
Zen Arado: how giving is taken for granted
Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe we can ask the question differently next time. I feel we went off topic today
Bruce Mowbray: I feel that everyone had stories to tell, Aph.
Bruce Mowbray: and sometimes it's just necessary to get that out.
Aphrodite Macbain: be caring to yr dragon Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: my Dragon prefers to be slapped read the then kicked!
Zen Arado: can learn a lot from our little anecdotes - they are real life cases
Korel Laloix: I just felt that the topic intro paragraph had some flawed initial assumptions.

Zen Arado: me too Kori ! but I always think that:)
druth Vlodovic: it's a big topic, and has many conflicts between what we want to feel and how experiences and caution make us feel
Aphrodite Macbain: So shall we ask the same question?
Bruce Mowbray: they are all real-life cases, indeed.
druth Vlodovic: we'll get Kori to rewrite the intro
Bruce Mowbray: Let's let the question work us... rather than our working the question.
druth Vlodovic: er, Korel
Zen Arado: like 'mahayana Buddhiam says.....'
Aphrodite Macbain: My question for us today was whether we are capable of caring equally for all sentient beings. What is realistically possible for us and how much of this is idealism?
Zen Arado: what exactly is Mahayana?
Zen Arado: big topic
Bruce Mowbray: This whole endeavor can be descriptive rather than prescriptive.
Aphrodite Macbain: Would you prefer to rephrase it differently?
druth Vlodovic: lol, then by the end of the discussion we were dead on topic
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: mayana is the middle way, the least extreme path of Buddhism
druth Vlodovic: money vs compassion
Bruce Mowbray: yeppers, we never left the topic, actually.
Zen Arado: and is sentience the main qualifier?
Zen Arado: I remember big debates on that in philosophy
Aphrodite Macbain: For me, it expands to include the whole planet Zen forests, marine life, ec
Bruce Mowbray: no, I feel that being is the main qualifier.... but I certainly do not want to make a rule about it!
Korel Laloix: I don't believe you had a debate in a philosophy class Zen.
Aphrodite Macbain: why not Kori?
druth Vlodovic: I suppose one question is can you have compassion for everything outside the self and also the self?

Aphrodite Macbain: that is similar to the original question druth, isn't it?
Zen Arado: humans think their thinking is the paramount quality because they are good at it
Korel Laloix: Philosophy classes just tell you want to believe, not let you think for yourself.
Bruce Mowbray: I am so sorry that I need to leave now.
Korel Laloix: Ciao
druth Vlodovic: bye Bruce
Xirana Oximoxi: bye Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: thank you Aphrodite for this session. It has been far more beneficial than you realize at this moment.
Raffila Millgrove: oh gosh. it's past the hour. i didn't notice thanks for the thoughtful conversation all.
Zen Arado: in a philosophy course I was doing Kori
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Bruce: thanks for yr compassion!
Raffila Millgrove: bye everyone. ty again.
Xirana Oximoxi: bye Raffi
Xirana Oximoxi: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Raffi- thanks for your insight
druth Vlodovic: the original question assumed the self, which is dangerous
Korel Laloix: I still don't believe you... smiles.. the two I had were very prescriptive.
Zen Arado: a module on 'what gives humans the right to kill and eat other animals'
Zen Arado: why not Kori?
Zen Arado: sentience is a big issue there
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) OK then same time, same place, same question next week. I'll post the conversation and you can take a peek before we start again

Xirana Oximoxi: ok, thank you Aph!
druth Vlodovic: philosophy, science, religion, politics, even war can be judged by whether it is done "properly" or not
Korel Laloix: The philosophy courses I had can be summed up into three points.
Aphrodite Macbain: there are rules for everything :-)
Korel Laloix: Religious people are stupid.
Korel Laloix: George Bush is evil.
Korel Laloix: And Philosophy professors are gods and the saviors of the world.

Zen Arado: philosophy is a wide area
druth Vlodovic: sounds like you took a religion course which called itself philosophy
Xirana Oximoxi: hehe :)) interesting courses , Kori :))
Korel Laloix: As long as you put those themes in your papers, you get As. No  thinking required.
Zen Arado: not taught well then
Korel Laloix: Easiest As in college I think. No thinking required.
Korel Laloix: No
druth Vlodovic: what would be more interesting is to take a philosophy course which thought it was religion
Aphrodite Macbain: sounds like you had bad teachers Kori
Aphrodite Macbain: I must go and prepare for my philosophy course now.... :-) really!
Korel Laloix: Evidently not, I had that chat with many and most report the same sort of silliness. Very glad I had them though.
Korel Laloix: lol.. ciao
Xirana Oximoxi: I go too...have a nice week everyone and see you soon! :)
Korel Laloix: Take care.
Aphrodite Macbain: bye Xiri
Zen Arado: bye Aph, Xiri

Aphrodite Macbain: What's the verdict Kori- do you stay in quarantine for 3 weeks or not?
Korel Laloix: lol... no.. but.
Korel Laloix: Work is putting me on half pay leave for two more weeks.
druth Vlodovic: just remember the bit about George Bush aph
Korel Laloix: And I am still doing my twice day health assessments.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hope you feeling OK
druth Vlodovic: ttfn all
Aphrodite Macbain: byee
Korel Laloix: I feel great.. smiles
Korel Laloix: Ciao

Zen Arado: was looking for course I did but it's not there anymore
Zen Arado: http://www.open.ac.uk/Arts/a222/index.shtml
Korel Laloix: Which course was that?
Korel Laloix: wado
Zen Arado: it was introductory
Zen Arado: but a lot better than what you describe
Korel Laloix: I had two classes, one 200 and one 300 level class.
Zen Arado: seems a lot of people have a low view of philosophy these days
Zen Arado: that module on the self I would still find interesting
Zen Arado: I did one at MA level
Korel Laloix: It is horrible, it is nothing but political indoctrination.. and pushing group think.
Zen Arado: got me interested in Buddhism
Zen Arado: not the way I did it
Zen Arado: 1st course I did was called 'Life and Death'
Zen Arado: considered capital punishment, abortion, euthanasia, surrogacy, suicide
Zen Arado: applied philosophy
Zen Arado: when is it ok to kill in other words
Korel Laloix: We looked at all those things, but then applied them back to the three principles I said earlier.
Zen Arado: well I grew tired of it eventually
Zen Arado: but not for your reasons
Korel Laloix smiles
Korel Laloix: So just as long as you criticized religion, hated Bush and said what the philosophy PhD said in class, you got an A.
Zen Arado: too much adherence to concepts and words
Zen Arado: and never any answers
Zen Arado: just more and more complexity and questions
Zen Arado: Richard Rorty said philosophy is dead = think he is right
Zen Arado: it is all just descriptions
Korel Laloix: I did not find it interesting at all... was amusing really.

Korel Laloix: But.... It got me thinking about resisting.. which was very good for me.
Zen Arado: doesn't sound that well taught where you are
Zen Arado: anyway I must go
Korel Laloix: Ok.. take care.
Korel Laloix: Thanks for the chat.
Zen Arado: nice to see you again Kori :)
Zen Arado: byee
Korel Laloix: Ciao