2014.10.24 13:00 - chimp morality

Yakuzza Lethecus: 's current display-name is "Yaku".
Yakuzza Lethecus: hej korel
Yakuzza Lethecus: ur looking very ghosty tonight
Korel Laloix: Thanks.. smiles.. an old costume but I like it.
Yakuzza Lethecus: fitting for halloween in any case
Korel Laloix: That is the intent...
Korel Laloix: Want to find something better though.. thanks.
Yakuzza Lethecus: otherwise i hope ur back home and settled in again ?
Korel Laloix: Mostly....
Korel Laloix: Having a couple of weeks off though. So good.
Korel Laloix: Doing a lot of reading and on line course work.
Bruce Mowbray: 's current display-name is "Bruce".
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bruce
Korel Laloix: Osiyo Bruce.
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Kori and Yaku!
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Kori -- You're looking a bit pale today.
Korel Laloix smiles
Korel Laloix: I just lost all though vacation pounds... smiles
Bruce Mowbray is envious.
Korel Laloix: I did gain a bit of weight down in Africa, but it is already falling off of me.
Korel Laloix: I was up over 85 until this week.
Bruce Mowbray: omg!
Bruce Mowbray:
Bruce Mowbray: Some folks might give our right arms to be 100 pounds over your weight, Kori.
Korel Laloix: Just was not running down there and ate well all the time.
--BELL--
Korel Laloix: lol
Bruce Mowbray: but even losing their right arms wouldn't bring their weight down to 85.
Korel Laloix: I dated a basketball center for a bit. She was almost 18 inches taller than me and weighed more than 100lbs more... it was silly.
Bruce Mowbray: The most my typist can manage in the way of exercise is a daily one-mile walk. . . and he listens to podcasts the whole time he's walking.
Bruce Mowbray: Today he listened to a Radiolab podcast about "morality."
Bruce Mowbray: very enlightening, actually.
Korel Laloix: Do tell please.
Yakuzza Lethecus: well thats good exercise for both body and mind
Bruce Mowbray: In direct contradiction to Locke's theories about innate ideas, btw.
Bruce Mowbray: The premise was that morality has been forming in our ancestors for literall millions of years.
Bruce Mowbray: "chimp morality" they called it.
Bruce Mowbray: lol.
Bruce Mowbray: made a lot of sense to my typist, though.
Korel Laloix: Any more than that?
Bruce Mowbray: a lot more, actually, though one would probably need to hear the podcast for a complete coverage.
Yakuzza Lethecus: was it this one ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: http://www.radiolab.org/story/91509-...trolley-rides/
Bruce Mowbray: That's it!
Bruce Mowbray: Have you listened to it yet?
Yakuzza Lethecus: no, can´t listen in fast forward :)
Bruce Mowbray: well, the trolley rides part involves a decision about whether to save five people by steering a tolley car away from fifve people to a track where it will only kill one person...
Korel Laloix: I will check it out later.
Bruce Mowbray: It is worth listening to.
Bruce Mowbray: Eventually it gets into neuroscience, of course....
Yakuzza Lethecus: trolley or fat man problem, classical example
Bruce Mowbray: and it gets demonstrated that our basis for moral judgment is very very deep.
Bruce Mowbray: then they go to a primate zoo in Atlanta,
Bruce Mowbray: where Kori has been recently,
Bruce Mowbray: (not the zoo, but the city...)
Korel Laloix smiles
Bruce Mowbray: and the chimps clearly demonstrate "moral" behavior....
Bruce Mowbray: I think I have all of them, actually.
Bruce Mowbray: [so, it's a good e[isode of Radiolab.]
Bruce Mowbray: I saw Jad and Robert in Chicago two years ago -- at the Chicago Theater.
Bruce Mowbray: live [performance on "Light" -- really good.
Yakuzza Lethecus: welcome mick
Korel Laloix: brb.. have to go do a SL fashion consultation.
Yakuzza Lethecus: long time no see
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Mick!
Bruce Mowbray: Mich is trrying out his new laptop.
Mickorod Renard: hi folks,,just gotta get used to this new laptop
Bruce Mowbray: They do take some trining, to be sure.
Bruce Mowbray: training.
Mickorod Renard: Hi yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: are you still crashing frequently with it ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: or is it good with the new one
Mickorod Renard: I have just bought a new one..with lots of graphics etc
Bruce Mowbray: Great! I'm also on my laptop at the moment.
Bruce Mowbray: We were talking about theories of innate morality, Mick.
Bruce Mowbray: following upon some ideas introduced by a Radiolab program:
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.radiolab.org/story/91509-...trolley-rides/
Mickorod Renard: not sure i understand the definition
Mickorod Renard: ahh..is this the one where the chimp is bought up with a human infant?
Bruce Mowbray: "Is 'moral judgment' something that we gain from culture, or something that we are born with?"
Bruce Mowbray: nope, not that one.
Mickorod Renard: thanks
Bruce Mowbray: Moral judgment is BOTH. . . .
Bruce Mowbray: both "inner chimp" and Thou shalt not cheat on tax forms.
Bruce Mowbray: but John Locke would deny the inner chimp.
Mickorod Renard: mmm...i suspect much is based on self gain
Bruce Mowbray: (Locke didn't believe in innate ideas.)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, the whole area of self-gain. . . quite important.
Bruce Mowbray: as are the areas of hedonism and narcissism .... and altruism....
Mickorod Renard: although i have just given my dog some water as he was dry and that was distracting and I had no gain but felt guilty not giving it so i did
Bruce Mowbray: "Dana"
Bruce Mowbray: Consider that generosity is the First Paramita.
Bruce Mowbray: and the Paramitas are paths to perfection of wisdom.
Bruce Mowbray: generosity being the first!
Yakuzza Lethecus: Well isn´t it simply ,,just right" to do so because he needs it ?
Bruce Mowbray: So, apparently, Moses didn't have a patent on moral codes.
Mickorod Renard: yes, but i could have delayed it until I wasnt so busy,,yet i felt obliged to give him water above my selfish desire
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, THAT indicates your highly evolved morality, Yaku. Would another dog share food or water?
Bruce Mowbray: I doubt it.
Yakuzza Lethecus: Gosh, the writer of the bible should have been born in the usa, they would have taken care that the copyright is prolonged till today *joke*
Bruce Mowbray: lol.
Mickorod Renard: :)
Bruce Mowbray: It is a higher state of evolution to understand that my welfare also involves yours.
Bruce Mowbray: empathy is also self-interest, in the long run.
Bruce Mowbray: away from keyboard for a sec.... brb.
Mickorod Renard: well,,theres the rub,,in all things are we not thinking that somewhere our guilt will come and kick us in the rear?
Mickorod Renard: therefore we are always primed to self interest
Bruce Mowbray: [back]
Bruce Mowbray: so, you would say that all altruism is self-interest at its base?
Yakuzza Lethecus: but guilt is also learned by the environment i think
Bruce Mowbray: subconscious motivations make this very complicated.
Yakuzza Lethecus: for example how easy one is violating copyright for like a movie, it´s hard to feel guilty for something immaterial
Mickorod Renard: well,,i was gonna say something like that..we become conditioned and therefore dont always have to wiegh it up
Bruce Mowbray: Copyright laws are definitely higher brain stuff....
Mickorod Renard: its an act of our subconcious
Bruce Mowbray: primal morality is far more basic...
Bruce Mowbray: "chimp morality," as it were.
Bruce Mowbray: simple stuff, like Moses talked about in the Ten Commandments.
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: "Thou shalt not download a movie from The Pirate Bay" was not one of those.
Mickorod Renard: some of this must also be linked to finding a mate and breeding
Bruce Mowbray: [also very basic stuff]
Bruce Mowbray: My typist is currently trying to write an artificial intelligence program in which an agent (token) "learns" values.....
Bruce Mowbray: My typist is trying to teach the token how to share...
Mickorod Renard: Thats an interesting topic..but would you be trying to shortcut the moralistic value from your own knowledge or be allowing it to develope its own?
Bruce Mowbray: Excellent question!
Mickorod Renard: from scratch
Bruce Mowbray: I, of course, tell the program what the "goal" is...
Mickorod Renard: and what is that goal?
Bruce Mowbray: and that it would be better if several tokens got to that goal, ratrher than just one.
Mickorod Renard: to coexist?
Bruce Mowbray: and thr program has to learn about sharing -- through many runs of the program.
Bruce Mowbray: coexistence is a good term for it, yes.
Mickorod Renard: I fancy that may be posible if they had to share say battery life?
Bruce Mowbray: (Meant to type: The TOKEN has to learn through many runs of the program.)
Bruce Mowbray: Good poinmt..
Bruce Mowbray: I have written robot programs that have limited battery life,
Mickorod Renard: yes...if it were say to coexist sharing a limited battery life with others,,would one become selfish and domineering?
Bruce Mowbray: and each new robot learned what all previous robots had ecxperienced,
Bruce Mowbray: but this will involve a different sort of sharing, I think.
Bruce Mowbray: Haven't finished the program yet, but am open to new ideas about it.
Mickorod Renard: I guess that depends on what reward they will get for their product?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
Bruce Mowbray: and different rewards for difference kinds of sharing.
Bruce Mowbray: might ever reward altruism and sacrifice.
Bruce Mowbray: even*
Mickorod Renard: well...its interesting in that it will no doubt lead to recognising how we are manipulated by the powers that be
Mickorod Renard: on a human scale
Bruce Mowbray: ?? "Powers that be?"
Bruce Mowbray: hmmmm.
Bruce Mowbray: My typist will attempt to make the program "human-free" -- at least as regards his own notions of sharing, altruism, etc.
Mickorod Renard: for example..I suspect the end result will see a paralell with human development..
Bruce Mowbray: The closest thing I've been able to find in AI is the genetic algorithm,
Bruce Mowbray: sharing of genes, etc.
Mickorod Renard: in a way where consumerism becomes a
Mickorod Renard: can you say more Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: I feel that these questions are enormously important in a "globalized" world.
Mickorod Renard: is that to mutate?
Bruce Mowbray: yes, in genetic algorithms....
Bruce Mowbray: it is.
Bruce Mowbray: Lots of excellent example on YouTube.
Mickorod Renard: ok,,change, adapt bacome more efficient
Bruce Mowbray: +s
Mickorod Renard: become*
Bruce Mowbray: sharing the genertic information....
Bruce Mowbray: similar to how nature discovered sex...
Bruce Mowbray: an enormous advantage.
Bruce Mowbray: to adaptability.
Mickorod Renard: he he..we are both sophisticated and yet simple as a fungus
Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
Bruce Mowbray: Ain't that COOL?
Mickorod Renard: it is,,and humbling too
Bruce Mowbray: My typists AI programs are FARRRRR simpler than fungi.
Mickorod Renard: it is in some small way part of understanding being
Yakuzza Lethecus: The biggest lifeform on the planet is a fungus
Bruce Mowbray: nods, and nods again.
Bruce Mowbray: Can you say more, Mick?
Bruce Mowbray: (btw, I just got a FINE insight from Yaku's saying the biggest life from on the planet is a fungus.)
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: well..if say one can comprehend that all life or even matter perhaps is in its own way satisfied with its existence then there is no death and we are alll one
Mickorod Renard: a fungus must be happy to want to hold onto life,,
Bruce Mowbray: THAT is a wonderful idea, Mick. . . .
Mickorod Renard: therefore I feel comfortable with becoming fungus after being a human
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Bruce Mowbray: "I" (whatever THAT is!) will be ha[[y just to have my physical molecules free to circulate....
Bruce Mowbray: happy*
Bruce Mowbray: which is why my typist wants his ashes thrown into his skinny-dipping creek.
Mickorod Renard: for sure..maybe the most happiest free from the binding of human form
Bruce Mowbray: nods.
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps we can all hope for that. . . eventually.
Bruce Mowbray: "but earth's the right place for love..." -- Robert Frost ("Birches")
Mickorod Renard: yes, attachment to our human derived values and treasures is our shackle
Bruce Mowbray: Wouldn't most folks rather have the shackles than the freedom, though?
Yakuzza Lethecus: shackles are good
Mickorod Renard: thats a tricky one..for many the most disagreeable aspects of our natures is that brought on from our fear of loss
Bruce Mowbray: My typist is rather shackled to hunger, it seems. So h insists that I depart this esteemed crowd and scrape up some supper.
Bruce Mowbray: Good luck with your laptop, Mick.
Yakuzza Lethecus: thx for being here bruce
Mickorod Renard: thanks Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: THANKS to you, Yaku and Mick.
Bruce Mowbray: Be thee well!
Mickorod Renard: I must get some kip too
Bruce Mowbray: and have a fine weekend.
Mickorod Renard: take care Bruce
Yakuzza Lethecus: nice to see you again mick
Yakuzza Lethecus: what is kip btw ?
Mickorod Renard: kip is sleep Yaku
Mickorod Renard: am juust catching up on the im
Yakuzza Lethecus: exaclty what i need too :)
Mickorod Renard: I am happy alll is well for you mate
Yakuzza Lethecus: sleep well
Mickorod Renard: we must have a longer chat one day
Mickorod Renard: nite nite
Mickorod Renard: thankyou