2015.11.23 13:00 - Nothing is better

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Mick
druth Vlodovic: was listening to Obama say the same thing a couple days later, then heard a republican say that Obama was warning us to be afraid of tourists instead of Syrians
Mickorod Renard: Hi folks
Aphrodite Macbain: How are you?
druth Vlodovic: hey mick
Mickorod Renard: good ta!
Aphrodite Macbain: How are the dreams?
druth Vlodovic: come dangle in the water
druth Vlodovic: we don't have any fish yet
Aphrodite Macbain: I keep missing your Thursday session
Mickorod Renard: no worries
Mickorod Renard: sussed it out
Aphrodite Macbain: there, now we all have soggy jeans
Mickorod Renard: he he
druth Vlodovic: :P
Mickorod Renard: I was sad to miss the AI sessions
Aphrodite Macbain: We can continue to talk about it Mick
Mickorod Renard: Hi QT
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Qt
Qt Core: Hi all!
druth Vlodovic: do you have any AI wisdom for us?
druth Vlodovic: hey Q
Aphrodite Macbain: I don't. I am astonished how ignorant I am about the subject.
druth Vlodovic: this is SL, no such thing as being behind, the train is always moving
Aphrodite Macbain: I have been reading all the urls that have been given out
Mickorod Renard: well, I am happy to listen if it was to go further.....as I would be behind in the talk
Mickorod Renard: funnily enough, I had a dream about it
druth Vlodovic: ohhh, spill
Aphrodite Macbain: spill?
druth Vlodovic: dream thing
Mickorod Renard: u mean: spill the dream?
Mickorod Renard: ahh
Mickorod Renard: he he
Mickorod Renard: I think..not sure that QT got it the other week? Mickorod Renard: if not, I am happy to give it out
Aphrodite Macbain: what did you dream Mick?
Aphrodite Macbain: sure!
Mickorod Renard: hold on..i have it on a card
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks
druth Vlodovic: maybe that is my problem, I keep trying to use pillows
Aphrodite Macbain: reads....
Mickorod Renard: np..but dont feel compelled to read it
Aphrodite Macbain: smiles- you dreamed of me? lol
Mickorod Renard: he he
druth Vlodovic: nice
Mickorod Renard: I gave the card to Druth and Qt too
druth Vlodovic: while I was reading I was thinking that an AI war would be dominated by AIs hacking each other and changing their loyalties etc
druth Vlodovic: then I thought: just like human wars
Aphrodite Macbain: Quotes from notecard: "This question made me ponder whether ultimately the AI would have a common goal between all units and if this common goal was to serve humanity or the development and perfection of the machine. Surely a single hierarchical AI machine would only come about after some sort of conflict/ competition. If this was so then deception for defence of itself would be necessary."
Aphrodite Macbain: this is an interesting question Mick
Aphrodite Macbain: Do you think the perfection of the machine would serve humans or machines?
Mickorod Renard: yes, I guess at first they would have separate uses and priorities..but ultimately they would become part of one unit like a bee hive
druth Vlodovic: well, the communists were hoping that too
Aphrodite Macbain: how do you imagine that happening? We are so different
Mickorod Renard: yes, this is deep isn't it?
Aphrodite Macbain: who would/could organize this collaboration?
Aphrodite Macbain: who would benefit most?
Mickorod Renard: I thought that perhaps, humans would have to give AI a sort of moral position
Aphrodite Macbain: say more?
druth Vlodovic: I'm not sue morals is a good way to go
Mickorod Renard: and what I fear is that humans themselves don't seem to be able to keep to the set of rules we hope to live by
Aphrodite Macbain: true
Aphrodite Macbain: but who decides which moral positions are the best?
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: then I guess it would become defined from a scientific position
Aphrodite Macbain: you mean an objective position?
Aphrodite Macbain: what would serve most people and AIs?
druth Vlodovic: if the machines start to take over we give them philosophy and wait for them to shut down :P
Mickorod Renard: and this brings us back to some utopian ideal like the Nazi's may have dreamt up
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: amazing how much harm is done through ideologies
Aphrodite Macbain: "my ideology is the right one..."
Mickorod Renard: yes, look at all the different positions in Philosophy
druth Vlodovic: it is said that Machiavelli was mainly vilified because he discarded utopia in favour of direct observation
Mickorod Renard: well, he is a good example of honesty in my opinion, although not widely owned up to
Aphrodite Macbain: What do you think Qt?
Aphrodite Macbain: Could AIs be more objective? Less self serving?
Mickorod Renard: machines have to be about efficiency....I think..but humans are inherently costly
Qt Core: it needs a goal
druth Vlodovic: I suspect we will end up with a more mixed society, rather than one dominated by any one category
Aphrodite Macbain: Since humans make computers, I would think that any belief system a robot holds would reflect those of humans.
Qt Core: until they reprogram themselves
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
druth Vlodovic: nature hates efficiency, since it is never really sustainable
Mickorod Renard: with cyber attacks it would have to have a defence
Aphrodite Macbain: Is that even possible Qt?
Aphrodite Macbain: Or is that just a human fear of the unknown?
Mickorod Renard: so self serving - would have to be in its own interest..to survive, then with that instinct built in, it would surely develop to become suspicious
Mickorod Renard: a paranoid AI
Aphrodite Macbain: could a robot reprogram itself?
Mickorod Renard: he he
Mickorod Renard: that is what they want, a computer that can learn by itself
druth Vlodovic: I thought that reprogramming oneself was the necessary point for something to be AI
Aphrodite Macbain: all biological species have evolved to continue its own species
Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe not re-programming, but learning more facts...
Qt Core: probably, but the question is why, how it will choose a new program instead of the old one... back to the "they have to have a goal to reach"
Aphrodite Macbain: does increased knowledge give an AI the will or desire to change?
druth Vlodovic: have to keep an option for unlearning

Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Bleu
druth Vlodovic: hi bleu
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Bleu
Qt Core: Hi Bleu
Aphrodite Macbain: you look great!
Aphrodite Macbain: you are no longer bleu

druth Vlodovic: the desire to change would be built in by scientists trying to get them to develop
Bleu Oleander: hehe right
Mickorod Renard: the latest supercomputers are all about self learning I think...adapting
Aphrodite Macbain: we are wondering whether it is possible for AIs and humans to work together for a better world
druth Vlodovic: if you have the capacity to learn, but no desire to do so
druth Vlodovic: ohhh, punchlintopia
Aphrodite Macbain: ?
Mickorod Renard: to learn is the only desire of some people I know
Aphrodite Macbain: Machines are still machines and don't necessarily "want" anything
Mickorod Renard: but an interesting point
Bleu Oleander: probably can build in "want"
Qt Core: just for the sake to it without practical application of the knowledge, Mick ?
Mickorod Renard: I wondered once, what it would be like to be a tree or a snail or whatever, it would it be horrid...but I decided that if it's something that has to reproduce to keep on surviving then it must enjoy what it has.
Aphrodite Macbain: You would only want to be something else if you were aware of it being an improvement
Mickorod Renard: yes Aph, I guess a snail would think it's disgusting to be a human
Aphrodite Macbain: survival is different from improving
Mickorod Renard: yes Qt I think a machine could just circumnavigate its need to understand why it needs to survive
druth Vlodovic: funnily enough humans reproduce faster when impoverished or frightened, not sure what to make of this in a philosophical manner though
Aphrodite Macbain: Is that true druth?
druth Vlodovic: poor countries do all the population growing
Aphrodite Macbain: SL is a great way of acting out our desires to be something else
Bleu Oleander: kinda like eating comfort food maybe?
druth Vlodovic: I can just see us being dominated by a miserable AI just because it is so restless it spreads everywhere
Bleu Oleander: has to do with education also
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Mickorod Renard: so if an AI had a survival program..it could become quite ruthless..maybe
Qt Core: when there are no choices to be made you go back to the basic: instinct, eat, reproduce and die
Aphrodite Macbain: I see humans always being in the dominant position and using AI to dominate other humans
Aphrodite Macbain: survival of the fittest a la Darwin...
Mickorod Renard: could an AI believe that it was under attack by an enemy computer..and then become defensive by becoming offensive?
druth Vlodovic: depends on what you mean by dominant; anyone seen the movie "end of the world"?
Aphrodite Macbain: nope
Bleu Oleander: me either
druth Vlodovic: not sure on the propriety on giving away the end of a comedic movie
Aphrodite Macbain: go for it druth
Mickorod Renard: The latest super computers I think are heavily into encryption...as this is where the latest war is being fought..in cyber space
druth Vlodovic: but if all tech stopped where would humans be?
druth Vlodovic: sort of like if everyone just stopped and stared at Hitler when he gave an order
Aphrodite Macbain: and did nothing?
druth Vlodovic: yes
druth Vlodovic: the worst dictator without minions is just a maniac

Qt Core: but that is "only" number crunching, the furthest away from AI you can go, Mick
Aphrodite Macbain: who benefits from the encryption?
Mickorod Renard: maybe QT could inform better encryption?
Aphrodite Macbain: sounds like Hal
druth Vlodovic: maybe unionize AI
druth Vlodovic: make it relatively harmless
Mickorod Renard: we rely on the computer for survival now
druth Vlodovic: I wonder how heavy encryption would affect the thought processes of a computer
Mickorod Renard: even the electricity supply, water everything
Aphrodite Macbain: sometimes my brain feels like it has been encrypted
Qt Core: are we hoping for something with human or even higher intelligence but that we can point to whatever issue we want solved and then put it away when done ?
Mickorod Renard: if someone wanted to whip us, they could hack into the national grid and starve a country
druth Vlodovic: if they were clever we would blame it on capitalism for the first two weeks
druth Vlodovic: maybe never catch on
Mickorod Renard: to feed the world, as we would all wish to do we would need the help of some mighty computers
druth Vlodovic: ohhh, men are from mars... we are old abandoned AI with heavy encryption!
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
druth Vlodovic: just a slightly different approach to profit taking
Aphrodite Macbain: I would worry if everything were left to AI
druth Vlodovic: the old time commies thought what you do Mick, tried to make society logical and organized but they forgot that in the end they are just politicians
Aphrodite Macbain: besides, which AI would be in charge? There are so many types
Qt Core: suppose we ask an AI to solve the hunger issue... if beforehand we teach it humans are all equals it would immediately take from us westerners at least half of our food supply and distribute it all over Africa, are we ready for that ? or we teach it that some are more equals than others,,,
Mickorod Renard: I think, personally, we minions are the exploited, and that's what we will stay, even if AI was in charge
druth Vlodovic: most hunger in the world can be traced to war
Aphrodite Macbain: or drought druth
Aphrodite Macbain: due to global warming
druth Vlodovic: so maybe it would just take away all the weapons and sharp objects and say "there, done"
druth Vlodovic: these days? drought is a transportation problem
Qt Core: stopping wars may stop hunger on the longer period, but immediately there are millions to be fed
Mickorod Renard: my wife works with SAP.., it's a sort of infant combining of computer resource in big companies..so that they can see the whole picture..more efficient
druth Vlodovic: not even a wealth problem unless the politicians get involved
Aphrodite Macbain: nods- it's essential to see the big picture if you are going to make changes
druth Vlodovic: coincidence i think http://www.mikeldunham.blogs.com/mik...hquakes-s.html

Arisia Vita: greetings all
Mickorod Renard: hi Ari
druth Vlodovic: the probklem is what to do with the big picture
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Ari
Qt Core: hi Ari
Bleu Oleander: hiya Ari
druth Vlodovic: hi ari

druth Vlodovic: I have seen the big picture;  used to ignore the facts, and damage operations in order to extract kudos and bonuses
Mickorod Renard: I recon one thing that keeps us human is our inability to see the whole picture
Aphrodite Macbain: you and Qt match, Ari
druth Vlodovic: if you want to know what an AI would do without a societal induced sense of right and wrong, look at the operation of a multinational :(
Aphrodite Macbain: we are wondering what might happen if AI took over, Ari
Aphrodite Macbain: From Mick's notecard: "I started to see that we as humans are already destined to be slave to the machine." Isn't the first world already slave to the machine?
Mickorod Renard: one thing is for sure, AI is coming
Aphrodite Macbain: AI is already here
Mickorod Renard: yep
Aphrodite Macbain: but I don't believe in Singularity however
druth Vlodovic: the first world is slave to the machine the same way Harper was slave to Canada, he was entirely dependent on us to feed him so...
Mickorod Renard: we may be singled out
Aphrodite Macbain: Noam Chomsky thinks Singularity is a ridiculous idea
Aphrodite Macbain: As does John Searle
Mickorod Renard: Chomsky thinks the singularity is ridiculous?
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Mickorod Renard: ohh
Aphrodite Macbain: there is a great YouTube video of him talking about AI
Aphrodite Macbain: He calmly and logically takes it apart
Aphrodite Macbain: says there are more important things to do and solve today
Qt Core: after all we "just" need a way to have an AI access all the data it wants/needs but with no way to act in the physical world and there will be no issues
Aphrodite Macbain: exactly!
Bleu Oleander: https://www.singularityweblog.com/no...ience-fiction/
Aphrodite Macbain: that's the one Bleu! :-)
druth Vlodovic: lol qt
druth Vlodovic: back before the internet hackers could remotely mess with people's water and electricity
Qt Core: then we'll discover if an AI can be born without letting it experiment...
druth Vlodovic: that genie is out of the bottle
Aphrodite Macbain: Humans experiment. AI's obey
Qt Core: that's the  problem of the "just" part druth ;-)
druth Vlodovic: my thought is that we would never acknowledge that an AI is intelligent until it changed the educational curriculum to make our kids believe it is.
Bleu Oleander: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Did it change the curriculum or did the teachers?
Mickorod Renard: well, the future need for human workforce changed the curriculum and here in UK it's IT or computer science or robotics in schools

druth Vlodovic: oh, the singularity, ever spent years in a small town that "never changed" then went away a few years?
Qt Core: we could put the AI in a virtual world, without the AI noticing its virtuality, but for that and the AI growing ok we would need to perfectly simulate RL -- a problem in itself
druth Vlodovic: stick it in SL
Aphrodite Macbain: sounds interesting Qt ....could we ever do that though?
Aphrodite Macbain: what needs does SL serve that AI cant?
Qt Core: bling ?
druth Vlodovic: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: Bling for sure
Mickorod Renard: one could say Ai has already changed the way we as humans are being steered
Aphrodite Macbain: AI allows us to communicate
Mickorod Renard: or disallows us to in some countries
Aphrodite Macbain: AI allows for our creativity to be expressed
Aphrodite Macbain thinks of Bleu's Machinanima.
Mickorod Renard: it makes the world small
Mickorod Renard: easier to manage
Qt Core: i haven't read much about the current level of AI, but I'm quite convinced that the "truer" ones are small and of little use, the bigger ones, like Watson from IBM are just big number cruncher, faking AI
Aphrodite Macbain: AI?
Aphrodite Macbain: that's what Chomsky said too Qt
Arisia Vita: How would we know when a true AI arrives?
Bleu Oleander: when it gets an avi in sl ...
Arisia Vita: what would it do?
druth Vlodovic: what is the real function and use of the human mind?
Aphrodite Macbain: Good question Ari
Aphrodite Macbain: to make its owner survive druth?
Qt Core: at the fundamental level ? to reproduce more

Mickorod Renard: what worries me at the mo is how the direction that super computers are being used to keep secrets for national security from cyber attack
druth Vlodovic: not to fundamentalists aph
druth Vlodovic: crunching reality I guess
Mickorod Renard: crunching numbers helped break the codes in ww2
druth Vlodovic: making survival match reality and vice versa; my guess
Aphrodite Macbain: many computers are useless or dangerous, some are just money makers (Watson); and a few are handy - like my cell phone (when it doesn't break down)
Aphrodite Macbain: or decrypts codes
druth Vlodovic: listening to Gowan doesn't really help mindfulness pauses
Mickorod Renard: AI is the war helper of the present and future sparring partners
Aphrodite Macbain: Gowan?
druth Vlodovic: good singer
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: there's another use for your AI
Mickorod Renard: yes?
druth Vlodovic: we are developing AI's and using them to keep secrets and kill people sigh
Aphrodite Macbain: listening to music
Aphrodite Macbain: but it is serving humans, not taking over...
Qt Core: even better writing music... but some program for that are already there, again just number crunchers
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
druth Vlodovic: was reading a web comic where they found the secret of eternal life and used it to develop super soldiers, "they found the secret of eternal life and used it to kill people" sounds about right...
Qt Core: seems quite a human thing to do...
Mickorod Renard: I find it a bit scary
Aphrodite Macbain: Survival of the fittest and oldest
druth Vlodovic: what does a mind do besides processing information and making decisions Qt?
Qt Core: generate heat ? dream ? wish ?

Mickorod Renard: give me a sword or dagger anytime..but fighting some unseen Ai several miles away, well...
Bleu Oleander: bye all
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye BLeu!
Arisia Vita: bye bleu
Mickorod Renard: bye BLEU
druth Vlodovic: ttfn bleu
Qt Core: bye Bleu

druth Vlodovic: dreaming and wishing
Aphrodite Macbain: And feeling emotion
Aphrodite Macbain: and thinking or remembering
Aphrodite Macbain: all are useful for survival
Qt Core: thinking is just the process of making decisions
druth Vlodovic: lol, no wonder these things are denigrated on practical levels, who wants their servant 'bots doing that?
Aphrodite Macbain:
Mickorod Renard: what if they programmed the AI with the Buddha's understanding?
Aphrodite Macbain: nice
Aphrodite Macbain: with Buddha's compassion
druth Vlodovic: upload the Dalai Lama
Aphrodite Macbain: grins
Aphrodite Macbain: now we're talking!
Mickorod Renard: it would then do nothing
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Mickorod Renard: I think the nothing was what my dream was about, nothing is better
Aphrodite Macbain: speaking of doing nothing ...
druth Vlodovic: faith can move mountains, so why aren't mountains running about? wisdom
Mickorod Renard: he he
Aphrodite Macbain: I should get back to RL
druth Vlodovic: poor thing
Mickorod Renard: me too
Arisia Vita: me too
Mickorod Renard: great chat
druth Vlodovic: have fun all
Arisia Vita: it's been great being here
Qt Core: same here
Qt Core: bye all!
Mickorod Renard: bye all..thanks
Aphrodite Macbain: a chat made great by all of you
Arisia Vita: see you all again soon
Aphrodite Macbain: thank you