2016.04.04 13:00 - TSK: Human Narrative

The Guardians for this meeting were Riddle, Bleu, Cat and Mick. :) Eliza posted the session.

--BELL--

Riddle Sideways: hi Cat
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Riddle :) I'll brb sorry
Riddle Sideways: is ok, am doing several other things
Riddle Sideways: going to just listen if session happens
Mickorod Renard: hiya
Riddle Sideways: hi mick
Riddle Sideways: finally just read email.
Riddle Sideways: Eliza will not be here
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Mickorod Renard: just trying a new server thingy
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Mick, Blue :)
Riddle Sideways: hi again Bleu
Mickorod Renard: Hi Bleu cat

Riddle Sideways: was just enjoying the party photos from email
Mickorod Renard: I suspected eliza wouldnt make it
Bleu Oleander: was hard to edit down :)
Bleu Oleander: I think she said an email that she wasn't
Riddle Sideways: :)
Bleu Oleander: congrats again Cat :)
Riddle Sideways: oh yes, mazel tov
Mickorod Renard: did storm or eos make it?
Catrinamonblue Resident: thank you :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: just fussing with facebook now to change name and put picture :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Mickorod Renard: 8 years,,how time passes
Riddle Sideways: yep
Mickorod Renard: bit scary

Bleu Oleander: so this is our "9th" year :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Riddle Sideways: Pema's email was nice
Bleu Oleander: next year's party should be fun to connect all the 9's
Bleu Oleander: yes!
Mickorod Renard: yes, it would have been nice had he popped in
Riddle Sideways: what year was it that the party went on all day?
Riddle Sideways: with concert etc.
Bleu Oleander: there was an all day party?
Mickorod Renard: cant remember
Riddle Sideways: anyway,
Mickorod Renard: i think also at that time we had a greater spread of people covering a larger range of time zones
Riddle Sideways: yes, it starts early morning

--BELL--

Riddle Sideways: dancing in the fields playing instruments
Mickorod Renard: Pila would have been first from hawaii i guess, time zone wise
Riddle Sideways: is that right?
Mickorod Renard: actually i think I am wrong
Riddle Sideways: hmmmm, thought hawaii was the last
Mickorod Renard: he he
Riddle Sideways: Japan might be first
Riddle Sideways: all the Japanese left to kira

Riddle Sideways: ok, need inspiration to get back to TSK
Bleu Oleander: :)
Riddle Sideways: have gotten out of it
Bleu Oleander: too much partying :)
Riddle Sideways: now behind AGAIN
Mickorod Renard: yes, tsk,,I have been a bit neglectful
Mickorod Renard: i did read the bit about the glow

Bleu Oleander: I think we are starting chapter 6 on thurs?
Bleu Oleander: officially begining "time"?
Mickorod Renard: yes
Riddle Sideways: it's about Time :)
Mickorod Renard: I would have loved a recap on what we should understand up to date but I feel its all a bit open and individual
Bleu Oleander: I think we each can know where we are, yes?
Bleu Oleander: don't think there is any pressure to "understand" anything? or am I missing something?
Catrinamonblue Resident: I'm still behaind, I haven't done any reading for a few weeks now.....
Riddle Sideways: :)

Mickorod Renard: I have a tendency to look at most things and just see non attachment....which doesn't impress my wife,,especially when it comes to wanting the plates washed
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: from my point of view it seems that the exercises are open to individual perceptions, experiences? really no right or wrong?
Bleu Oleander: is that how you see it?
Bleu Oleander: or am I a bit off LOL ... which would be surprising ha ha!
Mickorod Renard: I think that is true Bleu..and it may be best to stick to that unless we all come to some unified arrangement
Mickorod Renard: I am hoping what we are doing is a ground work for greater revelation as we move on
Bleu Oleander: for me these are mental thoughts and feelings, not something concrete in that sense, for you too?
Riddle Sideways: funny how we will all get to the same point at the end of the book

Catrinamonblue Resident: I'm going to slip away... I'm too far behind to add much to the discussion and I picked a bad time to update facebook, getting a ton of pm's :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: see you all later :)
Riddle Sideways: ok, cat
Bleu Oleander: bye Cat, take care
Mickorod Renard: bye Cat..hope all is good

Bleu Oleander: is there going to be a "same place" at the end of the book?
Bleu Oleander: is there a goal?
Riddle Sideways: imagining a ton of pm's
Bleu Oleander: not trick questions ha! really interested in what you think
Riddle Sideways: maybe a same knowledge
Mickorod Renard: this is what i was wondering but there is a general feeling of 'wait and see where it takes us'
Riddle Sideways: ':)
Bleu Oleander: same knowledge re what?
Riddle Sideways: maybe we end up at the same Great Knowledge
Riddle Sideways: at the last section
Bleu Oleander: which means .... ?
Riddle Sideways: not sure
Riddle Sideways: just speculating
Bleu Oleander: kk
Riddle Sideways: where a 'wait and see' gets us

Riddle Sideways: the group brings in so much insight
Mickorod Renard: I would love there to be some unified great knowledge that we will all encounter at the smae time
Bleu Oleander: one thing I noticed was that we never get beyond the "great" concepts ... this is my 3rd time reading and don't ever arrive at anything that could be called an "answer"
Riddle Sideways: wouldn't that be nice
Bleu Oleander: I do enjoy exploring it tho
Riddle Sideways: to both of you
Riddle Sideways: darn Lag
Mickorod Renard: yes Bleu,,I sense that too and it raises some skeptisism in me

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: skeptisism about what?
Mickorod Renard: re no answer*
Mickorod Renard: but I am sure there is something in this book should I be able to grasp it
Bleu Oleander: Eliza had suggested that I was a "skeptic" ... perhaps because I ask questions?
Bleu Oleander: but asking questions is the only way to understand for me at least
Riddle Sideways: perhaps we are being goal oriented
Bleu Oleander: we are if we are expecting to all meet at some end
Mickorod Renard: well, skeptic may be the wrong word i used...as asking questions is surely a good thing,,and that is what I like too
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bleu Oleander: if something, some concept is secure, it should stand up to our questions
Bleu Oleander: I don't think you can be a skeptic of an open exploration ... I think of skeptic as someone challenging a "belief" system or concept
Bleu Oleander: oops talking over bell :)

The narrative of being human...

Mickorod Renard: also i am quite content with life but feel sometimes that i am allowing myself to blindly follow the narative of being human..i prefer to look beyond the box
Mickorod Renard: if that makes sense
Bleu Oleander: we can only look beyond the box from within the human context I think ... there is no view for us outside of through our humanity, do you agree?
Mickorod Renard: well...i am not sure 'humanity' has a set standard
Bleu Oleander: and there's a lot to explore there even if somewhat limited
Bleu Oleander: not a set standard, just that we are human and have some limitations based on our humanity
Bleu Oleander: we are always human exploring what its like to be human, aren't we?
Riddle Sideways: the book is trying, nugging, allowing us out of the human look

Mickorod Renard: I see many automomous types of people that i feel have detached from humanity
Riddle Sideways: personally, spend a lot of time trying to not explore as if not human
Mickorod Renard: I am presently trying to define what is precious as a human
Bleu Oleander: really, aren't they just humans too ... perhaps we don't understand all humans, but they're still humans, can't really detach from that yet ... until we merge with tech :)
Bleu Oleander: what is precious for you?
Bleu Oleander: I don't think we can get out of the human look, myself, so maybe that's a point of difference in understanding?
Mickorod Renard: yes Bleu, but I am worried that as there becomes divisions between us in wealth and health and so forth there is or may be a tendency to forget the humanity
Bleu Oleander: well, we can say we forget humanity, but so far we are still human ... until we merge with tech
Mickorod Renard: yes, agree we are all humans, biologically

Riddle Sideways: 1. studying tech AI and processing deeply enough to try to get it
Riddle Sideways: 2. spending 8 years playing with Being

Bleu Oleander: there are still some challenging concepts for AI to get before we would consider it to be close to human
Mickorod Renard: as humans we could just say its our purpose to destroy the planet.......it may be ai that saves us from our self destruction
Riddle Sideways: oh, was answering ways of thinking that are not the me human

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: you're not a human studying AI and/or Being?
Riddle Sideways: in one sense
Bleu Oleander: just tell me to shut up if asking too many questions lol ... I'm ok with listening too
Bleu Oleander listens to Riddle :)
Mickorod Renard: I am just wondering whether we are forgetting the basic foundations of what we would like to think means Human ,when it comes to treating fellow humans with humanity
Riddle Sideways: trying very hard to be studying from that removed place
Mickorod Renard: sorry riddle, carry on pls
Riddle Sideways: not genenic algotyhms as human-like gene, but as a new different way

Mickorod Renard: now thats interesting
Bleu Oleander: say more ...

Riddle Sideways: yes, a human proposig to pretend to be some atoms grouping into a molecule
Riddle Sideways: there is still a single human pretending to attempt to see the larger non-individual stance
Riddle Sideways: doing a lot of pretending from your point of view
Bleu Oleander: pretending?
Mickorod Renard: you mean like hive?
Riddle Sideways: yet coping an attitude that a 'me' really is at an other point of view
Riddle Sideways: ummmm focus setting
Riddle Sideways: taking a step of/on belief
Mickorod Renard: ah, I think I see
Bleu Oleander: "me" and "I" are constructions not things, yes?
Riddle Sideways: then setting down in that new place to look about
Riddle Sideways: yes
Riddle Sideways: and loosening those constructions
Mickorod Renard: I think the book points that way
Riddle Sideways: loosening the object-events
Riddle Sideways: the subject-verbs
Bleu Oleander: I don't feel its possible to detach from some weak construction of "me or I" that can "know" something or "experience" something
Riddle Sideways: =have to think on that sentence
Mickorod Renard: he he
Mickorod Renard: me too
Bleu Oleander: :)
Riddle Sideways: seems a weak construct could easily be detached
Mickorod Renard: that next section,,where Eliza called the Glow,,refers to some of this
Bleu Oleander: weak in the sense that it runs under the hood
Mickorod Renard: i think
Riddle Sideways: if there is a strong construct to 'know' is only for an "I" to do
Riddle Sideways: then could not be detacted

Bleu Oleander: you would not be able to experience anything and know it if you didn't connect it to some sense of you
Bleu Oleander: know it meaning being able to reflect on it
Riddle Sideways: hmmmm, mostly true
Mickorod Renard: thats how I view it bleu
Bleu Oleander: what's not true?
Riddle Sideways: there are a few not places
Riddle Sideways: ummmm, how do you view the spaces between thoughts
Riddle Sideways: are they there?
Bleu Oleander: I don't view them as anything
Riddle Sideways: can you reflect on them
Bleu Oleander: then I would be thinking
Riddle Sideways: are they known to not be there?
Bleu Oleander: don't know
Mickorod Renard: but much goes on in the sub concious that we do not conciously dwel on
Bleu Oleander: don't know what that means really
Bleu Oleander: yes sub conscious goes on more than conscious
Bleu Oleander: there is much more going on that we have no access to than we are conscious of
Bleu Oleander: from what I'm reading and talking about, consciousness is just the tip of the iceberg
Riddle Sideways: yes
Bleu Oleander: for good reason lol
Riddle Sideways: :)
Bleu Oleander: we can't pay attention to too many things at once
Bleu Oleander: we would get bogged down in the details :)
Mickorod Renard: Its a facinating subject.....from this sort of reasoning can you see an object to the book?
Bleu Oleander: its amazing what goes on just to move our hands

--BELL--

Riddle Sideways: phone. need to go
Bleu Oleander: the book is a disciplined way to think about things
Bleu Oleander: kk
Riddle Sideways: bye for now
Bleu Oleander: take care
Mickorod Renard: bye riiddle,,good chat
Bleu Oleander: thanks Riddle
Mickorod Renard: thanks
Bleu Oleander: sorry if too many questions
Mickorod Renard: its very deep ,,no great questions
Bleu Oleander: I think a lot about these kinds of things
Mickorod Renard: I mean,,all the questions are great
Mickorod Renard: me too

Bleu Oleander: taking a class on Kierkegaard atm
Bleu Oleander: fascinating
Bleu Oleander: had many of the same questions 200 years ago
Mickorod Renard: I may look that up
Bleu Oleander: back to Socrates even!!
Bleu Oleander: I just finished a great book
Bleu Oleander: "at the existentialist cafe" by Sarah Bakewell
Mickorod Renard: they say tho, that phillosophy raises more questions that gives answers
Bleu Oleander: gave me a sense of how long people have been grappling with these questions
Mickorod Renard: for sure
Bleu Oleander: that's true Mick
Bleu Oleander: truth is "there are no answers" LOL
Bleu Oleander: only questions
Bleu Oleander: oops sorry bell

Mickorod Renard: one person i never liked was ayn rand, but I tussle with something she said,,i do all the time
Bleu Oleander: me either
Mickorod Renard: the bit re humans being either cows in the field or not
Bleu Oleander: I don't relate to her philosophy
Bleu Oleander: I've just started "Phenomenology of Perception" by Merleau-Ponty
Mickorod Renard: I dont think I do,,but that bit about cows in the field just keeps me trying to work it out
Bleu Oleander: in what sense?
Mickorod Renard: I bet that good
Mickorod Renard: well..I think it means that some folk,,regardless of success at it..just go to work and then to bed on a repetitive routine
Mickorod Renard: without any creative or arty nature
Bleu Oleander: I think we can't know their minds tho
Bleu Oleander: look at Einstein
Bleu Oleander: he "just worked in the mailroom"
Mickorod Renard: for sure,,thats a weak point in that view
Mickorod Renard: but its made me strive to question
Mickorod Renard: everything
Mickorod Renard: and made me more creative
Bleu Oleander: what someone does that is shown to us is not the totality of their being
Mickorod Renard: very true
Bleu Oleander: we shouldn't "rest" with a set conception of someone ... never know what's under the hood
Mickorod Renard: best not to be judgemental..except of myself
Bleu Oleander: yes :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Mickorod Renard: but sometimes I think..would I prefer to be a cow or a fox
Mickorod Renard: a cows life is prob easier
Bleu Oleander: cows have a different "umwelt" than we do
Bleu Oleander: they're good at being cows
Mickorod Renard: but a fox riskier and free
Mickorod Renard: are we not being groomed to be cows for the rulers
Bleu Oleander: be a cow to the best of your ability, be a fox to the best of your ability, be human to the best of your ability .... means different things
Mickorod Renard: yes, but what is it to be human,,that brings us back to what i sort of started with
Mickorod Renard: he he
Bleu Oleander: we already know
Bleu Oleander: we are
Bleu Oleander: ha! there's no one else to ask
Mickorod Renard: Bleu, I have to slip away
Bleu Oleander: ok me too
Bleu Oleander: thanks for the conversation
Mickorod Renard: great chatting
Bleu Oleander: take care
Mickorod Renard: thankyou
Mickorod Renard: nite nite from uk
Bleu Oleander: nite