2019.05.16 13:00 - Slingerland VIIIish

The Guardian for this meeting was Tura Brezoianu. The comments are by Tura Brezoianu.

I think we wandered over chapters 6 (Zhuangzi) and 7 (just how do you try not to try?).

Tura Brezoianu: hi Alma
Almadi Masala: hi Tura
Tura Brezoianu: crickets chirping...
Almadi Masala: :)
Tura Brezoianu: shh....the cat's peein'
Almadi Masala: reading the book has put everyone into wu wei, where they don't try to come to meetings ;)
Tura Brezoianu: "Do, or do not. There is no try."
Tura Brezoianu: "Use the try, Luke"
Tura Brezoianu: Any thoughts about chapter 6?
Almadi Masala: trying to remember what that chapter covered...
Tura Brezoianu: the tension between trying and not trying
Almadi Masala: was that the one about Zhuangzi?
Tura Brezoianu: and how the "don't try" schools tend to split into the "well, try a bit" and "no, no, don't try at all"
--BELL--
Almadi Masala: seems like it is all about self-consciousness
Almadi Masala: and any effort to forget yourself only makes you more self conscious
Tura Brezoianu: Zhuangzi was "try, but not too hard", responding to Laozi's "don't try", which was a reaction to Confucius "try really hard"
Tura Brezoianu: Maybe it's like riding a bicycle
Tura Brezoianu: You have to actually do something
Tura Brezoianu: But not by trying to direct each movement
Almadi Masala: yes, you have to try until you can do it without having to think about it
Tura Brezoianu: "the things we must learn to do, we learn by doing"
Tura Brezoianu: (I think that's Aristotle)
Almadi Masala: is the goal to be in wu wei all the time? or are there times when it is better not to be?
Tura Brezoianu: It's supposed to be the Way, that leads to Virtue, so I would guess always.
Tura Brezoianu: In theory
Tura Brezoianu: But if you try to attain it, it will elude you.
Tura Brezoianu: Except Confucius would say, try all the time.
--BELL--
Almadi Masala: it only comes to those who are not seeking it ... but you still have to seek it
Tura Brezoianu: Yes, seek, and it will come in spite of seeking
Tura Brezoianu: Someone I once knew said "If you get it, it will be in spite of any method. You must have a method."
Almadi Masala nods
Almadi Masala: you have to learn the method, so that you can then forget about the method
Almadi Masala: or maybe it is like falling asleep. trying to fall asleep does no good, but if you establish a bedtime routine and create the right conditions, it happens naturally without trying.
Tura Brezoianu: Then a Laozi or Zhuangzi pops up and says "No! No method! No try!" and the philosophical cycle goes round again.
Tura Brezoianu: I wonder if any of the emperors ever took these teachings to heart.
Tura Brezoianu: Did any of them write books of reflections, like Marcus Aurelius did?
--BELL--
Almadi Masala: I don't know
Almadi Masala: seems like if they took the teachings to heart, they would not have much interest in being emperor anymore
Tura Brezoianu: And then we would never have heard of them.
Tura Brezoianu: They'd lose the Game of Thrones.
Almadi Masala: am I the only person in the world who has not been watching that?
Tura Brezoianu: No, I haven't seen it either. I think I get the general idea of it though :)
Tura Brezoianu: The Chinese stories have episodes of King This or King That encountering Woodcarver Qing or whoever, and learning from them how they should rule.
Tura Brezoianu: But it's the philosophers telling these stories.
Almadi Masala: maybe the emperors had philosophical advisors the way some presidents have religious counselors ... but who knows if they are sincere or if it is just for show?
Tura Brezoianu: Nero had Seneca, but that didn't turn out well
Tura Brezoianu: But Confucianism had a big influence on the whole society
Tura Brezoianu: Maybe because it was useful to emperors to promote it
Almadi Masala: yes, emperors like an orderly society
--BELL--
Almadi Masala: well, I should get going. thank you for sharing the time and your thoughts
Tura Brezoianu: thank you for being here
Tura Brezoianu: goodnight Alma
Almadi Masala: good night Tura, see you