2020.07.15 13:00 - On Narratives (Bach)

We began to discuss Joscha Bach's ideas in a more focused way, thanks to Mick having done some research and putting together a notecard of key angles. Previous sessions where we began to talk about Bach are here, with apologies that I wasn't able to make cleaner links:

https://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_Logs/2020/07/2020.07.08_13%3a00_-_sparkling_glittering_twinkling_tasting_touching_kinds_of_minds

https://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_Logs/2020/07/2020.07.01_13%3a00_-_Moss_Appreciation%2c_Sifting_Dreams%2c_and_Joscha_Bach
 

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tura :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick, Wol :)
Tura Brezoianu: hi Eliza, Wol, Mic
Wol Euler: hello eliza, tura, mick
Mickorod Renard: Hi Folks
Tura Brezoianu: We seem to be socially distancing :)
Mickorod Renard: hi Qt
Wol Euler: heheheh
Wol Euler: hello qt
Eliza Madrigal: We do seem to be, so far
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt :)
Qt Core: Hi all!
Wol Euler: well apart from those two
Eliza Madrigal grins
Mickorod Renard: ha ha , we will soon fill up
Tura Brezoianu: hi Qt

Eliza Madrigal: How's this week?
Mickorod Renard: good ish in parts
Eliza Madrigal: Which parts?
Wol Euler: motivationless
Qt Core: good, since today, using distancing mask are no more mandatory when outside
Mickorod Renard: well, those parts i prefer to keep private
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Sorry, Wol
Eliza Madrigal: I've been ill and sleeping... was up maybe 4 hours yesterday
Wol Euler: oh dear
Mickorod Renard: oh no
Wol Euler: sorry to hear that
Eliza Madrigal shrugs
Eliza Madrigal: Thankfully none of the dangerous symptoms
Wol Euler: good
Mickorod Renard: sleep is good tho
Qt Core: being able to sleep when ill is still good
Eliza Madrigal: Truthfully, the sleep was really needed
Eliza Madrigal: Even when you have more time on your hands, it doesn't mean that time is restful, y'know
Mickorod Renard: the body is good at tellin what it needs
Wol Euler: absolutely
Qt Core: most lockdown survivors would agree, Eliza

Control

Mickorod Renard: I would like to get the the bit where i could use my motivation, instead I am driven by external forces
Eliza Madrigal: the stress of our numbers surging while everywhere else in the world gets this under control is... ugh
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: my sympathies
Eliza Madrigal: interesting comment, Mick
Mickorod Renard: I wonder whether the control thing is just a diferent perspective
Wol Euler: could you expand on that a little, Mick?
Mickorod Renard: like are we sure every country is using the same measure
Tura Brezoianu: Or even reporting whatever they're reporting truthfully?
Wol Euler: people not dying is a fairly unambiguous measurement
Mickorod Renard: we still have victims of the virus but most are those that prob would have died of any virus
Eliza Madrigal: hospitals filling up or emptying out is a pretty clear measure, but I understand the questioning of reporting
Qt Core: we had different ways of counting in dirrerent regions of italy in the first weeks, i would bet that no all countries use the same methodologies
Mickorod Renard: is it not in the nature of government to massage the figures say to open up the holiday trade?
Wol Euler: new zealand didn't
Wol Euler: they have no covid at all, but are remaining closed
Mickorod Renard: true
Eliza Madrigal nods, we're fairly certain of our governor manipulating data. It is just the intentions assigned that differ
Mickorod Renard: I know here they have shown seasonally adjusted figures, to show when the line of deaths falls to what would be normal
Tura Brezoianu: which state is that Eliza? (If you don't mind saying)
Eliza Madrigal: Florida
Eliza Madrigal: I live in Miami, which they're calling the new epicenter.
Wol Euler: well, yeah Mick, but you are governed by Wannabe Trump Junior
Mickorod Renard: he he , true Wol
Wol Euler: assume that he lies to you about everyting including the time of day
Eliza Madrigal: basically
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Even when you tell the public the truth, not everyone is qualified to analyze it, but, I'm still for telling the truth and treating this like a test run for even worse scenarios in the future.
Eliza Madrigal: We need to grow up
Wol Euler nods.
Mickorod Renard: mmm
Mickorod Renard: I have missed my grand kids
Wol Euler: I really wonder what the anti-maskers think is happening. Do they believe that the full hospitals are just a lie? that the doctors all sit alone drinking coffee all shift?
Eliza Madrigal: aw

--BELL--
 

Wol Euler smiles to Mick
Eliza Madrigal: There are far more people who think in terms of deep conspiracies than I ever wanted to believe
Wol Euler: rabbit, meet headlight.
Wol Euler: "but it's so bright, brightness is good, right?" splat.
Mickorod Renard: I used to like dreaming them up for fun, but now I ignore them as they are proberbly real
Eliza Madrigal smiles

Eliza Madrigal: It has clarified my spirituality a bit... all this
Wol Euler listens.
Mickorod Renard: yes?
Mickorod Renard: say more Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Woudn't be too easy to articulate quickly, but basically I have less taste for some things I used to find 'light' value in being good for morale, sort of
Wol Euler: a turn to seriousness?
Eliza Madrigal: I've been through so many personal 'faiths' of sorts, and have friends from all kinds of places...
Eliza Madrigal: but some of those 'light and love' communities are um... pissing me off
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Mickorod Renard: you mean you need to be more self preservationist?
Mickorod Renard: sort of not selfish but....get away from me
Mickorod Renard: he he
Eliza Madrigal: :) Not really... but I want to find ways to be more exact
Mickorod Renard: well, thats what I feel if i go out
Eliza Madrigal: maybe more spiritually precise
Eliza Madrigal: otherwise when I say I want peace on earth, I may be seen as saying I want to join the fight against 5G, lol
Wol Euler: that's an interesting phrase
Wol Euler: ha
Mickorod Renard: are we sure the fear over 5g isnt a conspiracy
Wol Euler: every country in the world bar one (1) has covid. Less than a dozen countries have 5G. You do the math.
Mickorod Renard: it is trump and boris
Eliza Madrigal: usually I think every viewpoint has value
Wol Euler: I have come to the conclusion that viewpoints founded on bullshit and willful ignorance have no value.
Wol Euler: not sorry.
Qt Core: some just as a test of patience for others ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: Okay but Wol, if I talk about 'miracles' in my life, etc., that's bullshit to some...
Eliza Madrigal: certainly not grounded in anything that can be proven
Eliza Madrigal: but as my friend, you hear me and I think, believe my experience, or my belief in that experience is genuine?
Eliza Madrigal: So where are the lines... I guess I'm asking myself more. How do I articulate them for myself so as not to put everything on the same ground?
Wol Euler: okay, granted, and my statement was a bit too broad :)
Eliza Madrigal: It is an open question :)
Tura Brezoianu: People make up stories and believe them because of the pretty patterns they make.
Tura Brezoianu: Instead of looking at the world to see if they're true.
Wol Euler: I was specifically thinking about the covid / mask discussion
Wol Euler: right, tura
Eliza Madrigal indeed loves pretty patterns
Eliza Madrigal: I was thinking anti-vaxxers, which keeps me up at night :)

Bach

Mickorod Renard: it almost reminds me of Bach, and our naratives...we all live our stories, and for us close to each other they are as real as our own..but not so much for others
Eliza Madrigal: Ohh, that's great, Mick...
Eliza Madrigal: power of intimate circle narratives?
Mickorod Renard: erm, I dunno
Eliza Madrigal: Did you do more listening this week? To Joscha?
Mickorod Renard: I did, but wow, its hell trying to put it in a nutshell..or notte card in this case
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: the best discussions are!
Mickorod Renard: i did 35 mins and wrote a card
Mickorod Renard: otherwise its too much
Mickorod Renard: it took about two days over and over, cos he is hard to hear
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: thank you
Wol Euler: were you writing out a transcript of the podcast?
Mickorod Renard: anyone is welcome to the card i wrote
Eliza Madrigal: Want to share it in chat?
Wol Euler: or your responses?

--BELL--
 

Eliza Madrigal: That way anyone not here can read it too. I know Bleu is interested
Mickorod Renard: its a sort of me trying to make it simple
Mickorod Renard: to stimulate debate
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Mick. I can paste it to the log when I post if okay with you?
Mickorod Renard: yeh sure, maybe read it first coss it could be rubbish
Eliza Madrigal: :) am sure not
Mickorod Renard: and dont anyone feel obliged to read it
Eliza Madrigal reads
 

Mick's Notecard:

My take on Joscha Bach, please feel free to dispute my wording I often get my knickers in a twist.:

Although we exist in a 3d universe, science says that we do not see all that exists outside our perception and that 3d is not the actual universe. Therefore 'our reality' is what we sense in a 3d world. Joscha Bach refers to a real reality as the quantum graph and we have no means to access seeing that. From our discernible beginnings we have had our brains take in information from our eyes etc and construct the reality we think we live in around a '3d model'. 

This process of making models of our reality is perhaps considered a primary function of the brain. In turn the brain considers the next model to make using fresh data and previous data. Some data can come from external sources, e.g. interacting with other people/objects (influence/environmental). Perhaps it’s worth reminding ourselves that this process could have been going on since we were primitive creatures? So it’s quite easy to see how we can create a reality that has been manipulated. But this is largely a computational process.

Joscha moves on to discuss the way that in the west we have been programmed by the effects of Catholicism (but not solely). Here we have rules, like in a game, to live by. We are expected to go to work earn money etc and live in a materialistic world. I think this may be what we could call a narrative, a story that we live in.

In the next part (from about 35 mins) in he talks about dualism. He describes this as consisting of two substances, one mental and one physical. He is, for me, difficult to follow in the video due to his accent and choice of words. I managed to find some written papers of his that helped me lots.

If I am not mistaken, the question of what is the self or consciousness has been the centre of debate for eons. Joscha, in his paper, considers a number of ways things take place,  e.g. how if we stub our toe it takes a while before the realization of pain occurs. 

This, and many more considerations I am sure, suggests that what happens in the physical world is separate from the self. In line with his other considerations it may be thought of as the self existing in a virtual world that is an image similar to when we dream, but whilst we are awake. (Ponders why a baby cries when slapped on the bottom for first time). Dualism, if I understand him, is how we refer to the two parts of us, physical like the brain and secondly the self or consciousness.
 

Mickorod Renard: we can chat about it another day
Mickorod Renard: its a walk before run bit, but i limped with it
Eliza Madrigal: I think this is great
Wol Euler nods.
Mickorod Renard: its a suprisingly simple result from alot of complex jargon
Mickorod Renard: I am sure it gets more complex
Eliza Madrigal: You keyed in on something that came up when we were doing WoK workshops, about dependent co-arising, and how self and world are co-arising
Eliza Madrigal: co-arisen (although arising may work there too)
Mickorod Renard: phew, inever understood all that in them days
Eliza Madrigal: I don't think any of us really understood it, but we were grokking the sensibility?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ara :)
arabella Ella: Hiya! Was struggling with updates for SL!
Mickorod Renard: i sort of had eurika moments without being able to say I understood
Eliza Madrigal: The focus on 'models' is a good entrance
Qt Core: Hi Ara
Mickorod Renard: Hi Ara
Eliza Madrigal: yes, me too :))
Eliza Madrigal: That happened to me a few weeks ago Ara. Glad you made it :)
Wol Euler: hello ara

Mickorod Renard: but these stories we live in, I guess if we recognise them we can change them easier
Mickorod Renard: or see them in a diferent way
Eliza Madrigal nods
Mickorod Renard: like i said earlier about being driven rather than being in control myself
Mickorod Renard: I may not take control but I can look at the story diferently
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: there's been debate about whether we 'live in a simulated universe' but this takes the question beyond that idea, as we are the simulators, but not in a simplistic way?
Mickorod Renard: yes, I am hoping he goes deeper into it
Mickorod Renard: he also mentions a singularity
Mickorod Renard: but I am unsure how that relates
Eliza Madrigal listens for other thoughts
Eliza Madrigal: [maybe I should have said our brains are simulators, rather than 'we']
Mickorod Renard: presumably the origin s of human conditioning for our reality must be like a singularity
Mickorod Renard: or is he meaning the quantum graph

--BELL--
 

arabella Ella: this is one definition i just found re technological singularity:
arabella Ella: The technological singularity—also, simply, the singularity—is a hypothetical point in time at which technological growth becomes uncontrollable and irreversible, resulting in unforeseeable changes to human civilization.
Mickorod Renard: how far back do we go to get to a point when we were not making sties/models
Mickorod Renard: ah, thanks Ara
Eliza Madrigal: the 'no going back' point, as experienced
Mickorod Renard: perhaps as gatherers of berries etc we had a very small limited need for complex naratives
Mickorod Renard: how much model making does a cows brain do?
Tura Brezoianu: From the perspective of someone in the stone age, I suppose we've already passed the singularity
Qt Core: just telling younglings which are good and when they are good to eat and where they are
arabella Ella: well another person writes a lot about the Singularity, Ray Kurzweil, he believes that soon we will be able to successfully download brains, he also set up the Singularity University
Qt Core: and maybe that snakes kill
Eliza Madrigal: But then we read early texts like Gilgamesh, and I don't know ... early stories are quite complex. I wonder if we have had more sophistication and desophistications than we realize
Tura Brezoianu: "Cows are none too smart. How much does it take to be able to sneak up on grass?" (Larry Niven)
Mickorod Renard: yes Qt
Mickorod Renard: he he Tura
Eliza Madrigal: :)
arabella Ella: so funny Tura!
Mickorod Renard: were we ever like that
Qt Core: just 4 or 45 thousand years ago isn't so long ago i think
Mickorod Renard: thats a facinating chanel of enquiry Ara
Wol Euler: so many technologies getting so far ahead of our ethics
arabella Ella: oh yes Wol
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
arabella Ella: and many are quite commercial too
Mickorod Renard: yes Eliza, the story telling was more important then than now
arabella Ella: for story telling, I guess people in the past had more time to reflect and to discuss issues with each other, no time wasted on social media :)
Mickorod Renard: but maybe now we make up more cos of our complicated lives
Eliza Madrigal: a big question is where we're headed, what's the logical end-point - and there's a point at which that question and the where did we begin, meet
Mickorod Renard: well, maybe when we let AI do the future story modelling
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, true Ara. I was sleeping lots and listening to the Braiding Sweetgrass book.... the time it took to have her experiences much less write them out so poetically.... I've probably spent that on twitter :P

arabella Ella: I only watched Josua's Ted Talk and he talks about cells and how they get together and I think that leads him to AI and replicability although I'd have to listen to him a few more times before it all begins to make sense
Wol Euler: hehehe
Mickorod Renard: I am glad you said that Ara, about having to listen to him several times
Eliza Madrigal nods
arabella Ella: although my gut instinct says he takes ideas which are already there and just gives them a particular 'twist', creating his own 'slogans' as many of those who become well known do, take Rene Descartes for example, Je pense, donc je suis, or I think therefore I am.
Eliza Madrigal: He does say that he has found his most like-minded thinkers far in the past at times
arabella Ella: And to add to that - I don't think he motivated me to listen to him again and again
Mickorod Renard: does the idea that we have some sort of seperate process going on, seperate from the physical go well with everyone
Eliza Madrigal: I'm not sure his shorter talks do that... I was really hooked by the long one, and the way he brings disparate thoughts together
arabella Ella: that has been an eternal debate Mick, whether there is the spiritual or mental only, the mental plus physical, or the physical only
Eliza Madrigal: hm, Mick
Mickorod Renard: yes, I think I feel that after getting to the bottom of what he says its stuff we have covered
Eliza Madrigal: I think he doesn't see them as different, if I'm understanding
arabella Ella: if i got him right, everything boils down to cells which are physical
arabella Ella: but which, via their complexity and development with other cells, allow for us to 'think'
Mickorod Renard: I have found a paper he wrote on the subject, I will bring it next week
Eliza Madrigal: and impose meaning, like his quote that 'happiness is a cookie the brain bakes for itself.'
Mickorod Renard: it covers the historical debate
arabella Ella: yes Eliza
arabella Ella: one of his aphorisms
Eliza Madrigal: Sounds great, Mick
Mickorod Renard: I simplified it a bit with the sentance about stubbing a toe
arabella Ella: maybe circulate the paper before next week?
Eliza Madrigal: Look forward to that! Hopefully I won't sleep the coming week away and can consider your notecard more deeply
Mickorod Renard: could do Ara
arabella Ella: ty
Eliza Madrigal: That's a good idea. Maybe through emails?
Wol Euler nods.

--BELL--
 

Mickorod Renard: I hope we wont get into trouble doing so
Eliza Madrigal: That's what emails are for
arabella Ella: perhaps we ought to think about which aspects we would like to discuss as he covers AI, happiness, religion and so many other topics!
Mickorod Renard: so far I am munching through his 3 hour video
Mickorod Renard: taking it as it comes
Eliza Madrigal: that's hard to break down into bits, at least I'd find it hard to do that, since the synthesis is part of what I'm drawn to
arabella Ella: Does anyone have his recipe to share - I'd like my brain to cook a happiness cookie for me!
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Mickorod Renard: Blue could have directed us more maybe as I am not sure what he has done
arabella Ella: especially since we are living in a world which seems to get more and more complicated by the minute
Eliza Madrigal: indeed
Eliza Madrigal: Or we're more responsible to grasp everything
Mickorod Renard: maybe this whole coronavirus is to slow us down
Eliza Madrigal: I'd hoped that in the beginning
Qt Core: mine seems to be mostly based on paper and ink (or they digital equivalents), Ara ;-)
Tura Brezoianu has just been busy catching up on Joscha Bach on the internet
arabella Ella: the CV slowdown is only temporary
Eliza Madrigal: Oh goodness Tura, that's true. You weren't here for that discussion
arabella Ella: your happiness QT?
arabella Ella: or world complications?
Tura Brezoianu: I'll read the chat logs too
Qt Core: recipe for happiness cookie, yes

Mickorod Renard: the note card was a simple beginning, hopefully to save having to listen to Josh over and over
arabella Ella: Oh I'll have to give that some thought!
Qt Core: take a book, forget the universe ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: Good idea. I'll post them both in this one, if that might be easier to locate
Tura Brezoianu: thanks for the notecard Mic
arabella Ella: or a TV series Qt!
Mickorod Renard: no probs
Eliza Madrigal: Qt you have the magic formula perhaps :)
arabella Ella: Qt is right, and that is something we tend to forget in today frenetic world
arabella Ella: the allure of the printed word!
Eliza Madrigal: Napathons work too, but, alas, eyes open and there is the world clamoring to be understood
Wol Euler: more bigger naps now!
Eliza Madrigal laughs

Qt Core: there is the little issue of the universe keeping going forward while you are taking a break
Eliza Madrigal: that's the whole feeling of pressure of covid, too, that once it is over, it feels there is so much to make up for
Mickorod Renard: well, our 3 d universe
Mickorod Renard: time could be a human constraint
Eliza Madrigal: hmmm
arabella Ella: time is a huge mystery
arabella Ella: and about CV, here nearly everything is back to how it was pre-CV
Mickorod Renard: yes, I am discovering that many years have passed without me noticing
Eliza Madrigal: I love that question though, as though at different levels time is experienced differently, a la Inception or some such :)
arabella Ella: i loved that movie!
Eliza Madrigal: me too... am due for another re-watch ^.^
Eliza Madrigal: But for now I think I have to lay down again
Wol Euler smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: sigh :)
Wol Euler: take care, Eliza <3
Mickorod Renard: yep, I guess I have to move on
Eliza Madrigal: This has been the most excitement i've had for days!
Wol Euler: good :)
Eliza Madrigal: thank you <3
Mickorod Renard: he he
Wol Euler: excitement is overrated
Eliza Madrigal: will be fun to try to keep digging with this though
Mickorod Renard: yes, feel free to contribute info
Eliza Madrigal: thanks so much, Mick, everybody
Eliza Madrigal: bfn
Mickorod Renard: thanks you too
Mickorod Renard: and everyone
Qt Core: bye Eliza
arabella Ella: bye Eliza!
Mickorod Renard: ok, c ya next week folks
arabella Ella: bye Mick
Mickorod Renard: take care
arabella Ella: I've got to go too bye everyone!
Qt Core: bye Mick
Tura Brezoianu: Thanks everyone, bye for now
Qt Core: Bye Tura
Wol Euler: bye!
Qt Core: Bye Wol, stay safe
Wol Euler: you too!