19-21 - Log Slice

As usual, the logs bring up concepts that I could spend time thinking about more in depth, trying on ideas in turn... tasting them... and seeing what happens to them during this... It seems to be human nature to test perceived limits with experimentation.  Whether you believe in a creator of this material world, or believe that we are God embodied in cells and matter, and/or anything in between or outside of this, a common theme in the human condition (and of this log slice) is one of love... discernment... and the idea that everything is interrelated, including us.  Is the goal to take a look at these thoughts arising and... using our powers of observation free from filters, discern what is relatively applicable to our existence as human beings? 

Or is it very simply to appreciate the splendid arising of appearance... as Being Seeing itself... ~ SS

2009.08.19 01:00 - The Creator

Archmage Atlantis: As a child I accepted logic and reason as the only verifiable things in this existence, and understanding of scientific method as being the best guess we have based on current data followed naturally

Archmage Atlantis: Yet there was something in me that sought "meaning", which logic and reason did not provide me

Tarmel Udimo: the hardest thing to accept is that there may be no meaning as we know the word to mean:)

Tarmel Udimo: whatever the life force (creator) is it is not static and set if it exists in the world of potential does the life force experience everything while also holding the potential of everything

Tarmel Udimo: ok not too much fighting going on... but it is hard to just once and for all surrender to remaining positive and open and in the present at all times

2009.08.19 07:00 - Testing the Limits of Mind

doug Sosa: ah, yes. well, i was at a late dinner last night and at the end this computer programmer who is also a practicing buddhist who doesn't want to read anything wanted to talk.. doug Sosa: so i got home late and sit here with oj and coffee and a fuzzy mind.
doug Sosa: a fuzzy mind has some of the qualities of 9 sec but in slow motion.
Eliza Madrigal: haha, yes
Eliza Madrigal: What do you mean that the Buddhist didn't want to read anything?
doug Sosa: that wa short hand for his thinking that all he has to do is sit, not associate with any aspect of the tradition.

Eliza Madrigal: I have heard that some zen practicioners don't think reading is helpful
Eliza Madrigal: And I can understand why a little
Eliza Madrigal: Many of us read and read and read and sit little :)

doug Sosa: and there is truth in that but, when he also dances and doesn't want to associate with good dancers (good is too judgemental he says), and plays music but doesn't think learning music theory helps...

Eliza Madrigal: A chip on his shoulder he doesn't see then
Eliza Madrigal: Hope the sitting helps! :)
doug Sosa: that weighs him down.indeed.
Eliza Madrigal: I think we all have them. When protecting them becomes a lot of work, very heavy, maybe they're more noticeable and ready to go

doug Sosa: but then i have to ask, as we were talking, what is really going on here. is he a version of myself? Not obvious but hey, reality is often not obvious till you see it.
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, do you mean are you keyed into this quality because it may be something you aren't seeing yourself too?
doug Sosa: alwasy a spossibility.
Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed!

           ...

Archmage Atlantis: Transhumanism is, to me, my opinion, a forum to discuss and learn and decide what the shape of the future(s) we shall attempt to create will be

Eliza Madrigal: a very malleable vision in ways I wouldn't have imagined when i first heard the term
Eliza Madrigal: For me, the ability to communicate as a species has to come before everything...
Eliza Madrigal: the ability to hear another's thoughts and not shut down, and to express oneself in a way
Eliza Madrigal: which doesn't shut others down...
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, Eliza and that is a key point, I believe
Eliza Madrigal nods

Eliza Madrigal: I'd never heard the idea of dna being software ... like a bacteria that joined/overlapped with the hardware of larger environment ... like side-by-side evolution which came together, before last week

Archmage Atlantis: DNA is the most mathematically expressible of the biological sciences
Archmage Atlantis: The most yielding to computer science
Eliza Madrigal: Interesting idea, yes makes sense
Archmage Atlantis: As a true tool used by the Creator would be, IMHO

Eliza Madrigal: Yes, for you I see that it points to a creator. For me that is a kind of open question
Archmage Atlantis: That you see and think differently, and can yet see where my opinion could arise is powerful

2009.08.19 13:00 - universal love - really?

Mary Korpov: First, I dont' believe in any god, so that's a problem. But I think of love as some sort of experience/abstraction. Not really as a thing.

Pila Mulligan: the liberal theologians settled upon love as menaing 'to affirm reality'

Isadora Davidov: But "connection"..even basic recognition is significant

Pila Mulligan: so love was the ultimate reality = god

Mary Korpov: Are acceptance and love and peacefulness the same thing?

Isadora Davidov: No, Mary not precisely, but without some degree of being at peace with whoever the being is...it's hard to sustain love

Storm Nordwind: If you are truly peaceful Mary, then happiness will spontaneously arise from that. And then perhaps the wish for the suffering of others to be ameliorated. If so, perhaps that is a kind of love.

Mary Korpov: I've always felt that the idea that universal love is necessary is a kind of tyrrany
Wol Euler: yes, it's not a constant condition for me. It arises in context

Lia Rikugun: maybe this love should not be understood just towards humans
Hana Furlough: but that love doesn't come from a should
Hana Furlough: it's just there

Fox Monacular: you CAN love others... but love can't be forced on you
Lia Rikugun: it is just coming as you feel peaceful and accepting everything as it is

Isadora Davidov: I would just day "universal love" would be great compassion for all sentient beings...but that is good point Mary, the gap between an injunction and authentic feeling

Fox Monacular: but even when someone says you 'should', you still have a choice and a possibility to critically examine your options

Bertram Jacobus: freedom is very important in this context also i think
Bertram Jacobus: even a key

Fox Monacular: for me the idea of the universal love makes sense when you extend your connection to others beyond your family to all people...

Isadora Davidov: Maybe the term inevitable calls up an opposite: hate, intolerance
Isadora Davidov: the term "love"

Fox Monacular: so are you saying Mary, that love is conditional?
Isadora Davidov: Well, we are thoroughly "conditioned" and "conditional"

Isadora Davidov: Well, feeling outrage against those who severely harm others is normal, also
Fox Monacular: that's true, but it does not mean you cannot feel compassionate wowards them too

Storm Nordwind: It's normal Isadora, but very often it seems to perpetuate the outrage
Isadora Davidov: I think the problem comes when we try to find a way to deal with those who harm others.

Fox Monacular: I think we should try to eliminate causes of profound distress that leads people to do such things, rather than just focus on the result

Storm Nordwind: Perhaps. Indetifying the person and act is fairly common
Storm Nordwind: Even when we meet someone knew, we ask "What do you do?"
Wol Euler nods

2009.08.19 19:00 - Quiet

2009.08.20 0100 Missing

2009.08.20  0700 Missing

2009.08.20 13:00 - I'm an avatar most of the time... Probably

Storm Nordwind: One of my Buddhist teachers claims that SL is meaningless activity. I tell her that it is just a means of expression and communication like many other media.
Shyama Sheryffe: why should it be meningless ?
Hana Furlough: does she think first life has meaning?
Storm Nordwind: She certainly thinks that one needs to make the most of one's precious human life.
Hana Furlough: i agree ad that's what we're all about here

Hana Furlough: i was skeptical too
Hana Furlough: but that was before i realized that i'm an avatar most of the time in fl too
Wol Euler: :)
Storm Nordwind: Yes. And that's an important realisation.

Hana Furlough: when i really appreciate Being i see that i am not defined by or confined to what i usually think i am or what i want

Hana Furlough: it's like i don't have to identify with concepts

Bertram Jacobus: i see. so the traditional i is the ava ?
Hana Furlough: what traditional?
Bertram Jacobus: that what is normally called i
Storm Nordwind: perhaps an avatar is something we have, rather than something we are
Hana Furlough: yeah
Wol Euler: :)
Hana Furlough: it's something that we're getting caught up in constantly
Hana Furlough: rather than just appreciating and celebrating

Qt Core: the instrument we use to interact with the world ?

Hana Furlough: exactly qt -- an instrument

Qt Core: but saying so we end up saying our mind/soul/spirit is something different (and maybe even separated) from our body
Storm Nordwind: What do you think about that Qt? Do you think it is different and/or separated?

Wol Euler: the effectiveness of embodiment here, and the strong emotional attachment we feel for our avs nd each other, is pretty strong circumstantial evidence for a separation IMHO
Qt Core: i would like to think that as in the mind is separated, indipendent and "superior" but then everytime you see a dessert you like you discover it isn't ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: isn´t it so, that that is only a question of the point of view and from a so to say "absolute view" all is one and from a relative one - separate and distinguishable?
Hana Furlough: but to really appreciate the body, i feel like we need to bring our awareness to the body, leaving no separation
Bertram Jacobus: [ego = body - mind . very interesting] ! ... :-)
Shyama Sheryffe: but spirit is something separate ?
Hana Furlough: only when you start thinking it is

Storm Nordwind: Does anyone think that Play as Being can give us any insights into this questions?
Hana Furlough: yeah
Wol Euler: maybe :)
Hana Furlough: this idea of letting life live through you

Storm Nordwind: That almost sounds, Wol, as though PaB is a koan.

Wol Euler: I'd rather say that it is a cross-headed screwdriver.
Wol Euler: you can do lots of really cool stuff with screwdrivers, if you use them well :)
Storm Nordwind smiles
Hana Furlough: lol nice
Wol Euler: it's a tool, and I think a very good one.

Wol Euler: I think my use of "maybe" is a reluctance to surrender to the suggestion that life has binary yes/no outcomes
Storm Nordwind: Fuzzy logic rules... maybe
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: there seems so much absolutist thought in the world lately, or perhaps I just feel that way...
Storm Nordwind: There certainly seems to be more in some places rather than others.

Qt Core: it is so easyer to see everything in black and white
Wol Euler: true, which is why it happens. But doing so is essentially false.
Storm Nordwind: I disagree Qt. I think that is an acquired/trained habit
Wol Euler: (in most cases, in my opinion)
Wol Euler grins. I think you're both right :)
Storm Nordwind: A look at fuzzy logic will illustrate...
Bertram Jacobus: i think, there is both : duality AND diversity
Storm Nordwind: People do not divide the world into tall people and not-tall people...
Storm Nordwind: They say, He is fairly tall, she is very short, he is moderately tall. It is all subjective and in context.
Storm Nordwind: And someone can fit into the short class and the tall class at the same time!
Wol Euler: ah, I think I have seen something. Storm, you are talking about fuzziness of observation; QT and I were addressing (unconsiously in my case) judgements.
Qt Core: yes, but i'm thinking more about situation when you have to "decide" if something/someone is right or wrong
Wol Euler: exactly :)

Storm Nordwind: Observation is not absolute either... or is it? ;)
Qt Core: and evenm in the tall/short area you can have the "fixed" point of your own height for deciding where tall start and short end
Storm Nordwind: Yes it's subjective... but you could say someone was a little short and moderately tall at the same time
Storm Nordwind: So the boundary is not an absolute. It is fuzzy
Qt Core: that is if you detach yourself from it
Storm Nordwind: Many people seem to believe (especially in some parts of the world) if they are right, then any other opinions on the subject must be wrong.
Storm Nordwind: But that need not be so

Wol Euler: it seems to me that the rigid judgers conflate their opinions with their _selves_
Wol Euler: if you reject my opinion, you are rejecting _me_ personally.
Storm Nordwind resists the temptation to suggest that is a rigid judgment
Storm Nordwind: You're right. I am sure that is something many do. But I suspect it's not limited to rigid judgers.
Wol Euler: no, just a fuzzy observation.

2009.08.20 19:00 - Being in the pool, playing

Paradise Tennant: the retreat is very close ..
Sylectra Darwin: why not talk about preparations for that, on a personal level?
Pila Mulligan: I'm feeling like it is close even as a non-participant :)
doug Sosa: i am really looking forward to it. I hope it is not ..
Pila Mulligan: is not ....?
doug Sosa: couldn't find the word (s)
doug Sosa: Maybe start positive. I hope it is..
Pila Mulligan: a concealed revivial?
doug Sosa: serious, engaging.
Paradise Tennant: an opening .. to a better understanding :)
doug Sosa: no not a revival.

Sylectra Darwin: Anytime that you slow down and take the time to really savor something, you get a lot more out of it. That is what I think this retreat will be to a lot of the participants.

Pila Mulligan: Paradise has described rl meetings of people from SL, and so has Wol, as being simply a get together of people already friends -- a brief moment of connecting avi and meat and then freindship as usual

Paradise Tennant: but on some levels you know each other as friends beyond the physical form
stevenaia Michinaga: isn't that how we all know each other
Kiremimi Tigerpaw: true
Paradise Tennant: yes

2009.08.21 01:00 - Numbers hide as much as they tell

Archmage Atlantis: Wol, do you practice the suggested points of PaB as a regular aspect of your daily life
Archmage Atlantis: I am trying to decide
Wol Euler: mmmmm, mostly yes.
Archmage Atlantis: for myself
Wol Euler: I don't do the nine-second meditations regularly, I find that they interrupt my concentration too strongly
Wol Euler: so I take them medicinally as needed, but yes several times a day.
Wol Euler: I find them very useful as centering and grounding exercises.
Wol Euler: bringing me back to commonsense when the stress of work gets too great
Wol Euler: have you tried the exercises, Arch?

Archmage Atlantis: Yes, like my physical therapist often says to me, it isn't how many times or how well you do the exercises......just that I do them regularly

Wol Euler: it quickly has a quite strong effect, through repetition.

2009.08.21 07:00 - Monolog

Paul Namiboo: OK shall we talk about the MAHB?

Paul Namiboo: Millennium Assesment of Human Behavior -- Doug and I are involved in trying to start up a worldwide discussion of why, for instance, nothing gets done about climate disruption

Paul Namiboo: that's what we want to find out -- the IPCC says we're in deep trouble, but social scientists can't explain why nothing gets done

quen Oh: shouldn't it be an assesment of human identity? what we feel responsible for and how we identify ourselves and humanity and the relationship between both?

Paul Namiboo: welll, the issue of how much developing economies should do is a live one, since the rich countries have added most of the greenhouse gases -- but if we don't all cooperate to greatly redux the flux, it looks pretty grim
Paul Namiboo: Yes the identity issues are there too -- including "what are human beings for?"
doug Sosa: I like the dea that it may be identity rather than behavior that is the leverage point.
doug Sosa: *idea
quen Oh: if humans are individuals which mainly fight and compete each other in 'the struggle for life' nothing will be done, we will remain in our small individual or - depending where you live more or less privileged - 'worlds' we live in, which compete with the ones who threaten us
Paul Namiboo: Yes, but we now know that empathy is coded into our nervous systems -- so if we can only get that to extend beyond our various "families" we might have a chance....
quen Oh: if we would consider us integral part of a unity called humanity, like a family or a complex organism, we would probably have the health of the globe among the top of our to do list
doug Sosa: lets say that several things have to happen at the same time, like identity, local measurements of energy use, seeing how a behavior can make a difference. we could make a kind of map of necessary and suffecient conditions..
Paul Namiboo: I agree -- the biggest challenge is to extend our most extended family to include everybody -- as some people already do. But if you look in the blogsphere in the US. that's a "communist idea"
quen Oh: I think reason works more effective even than empathy
Paul Namiboo: You need both -- without emotion decision making is impossible
doug Sosa: so the model includes both reason and empathy, not either or.
quen Oh: as it is for humans reason that directs and control their behaviour and even emotions
Yakuzza Lethecus: hmm reason? i grow up and knew from elementary school that we are destroying the world but i am still alienated from saving the environment, it´s still just something in the media and nothing i really do something about
quen Oh: emotion is just an indicator*, a piece of information we cannot ignore, but finally reason will really direct actions, provided capacity for reasoning is well developed
Yakuzza Lethecus: so i knew all my life and understood the problems but somehow i don´t do anything and even most who ,,seem" to do something just use the hype
quen Oh: Yak, is the outside world responsible for you not doing anything, or are you yourself responsible?
Yakuzza Lethecus: like ,,gas from plants" they are threatening the climate even more then fossil energy
Paul Namiboo: Quen -- that's the enlightenment view that I once agreed with -- but brain research doesn't really support it any more -- sadly
doug Sosa: As Yak says, many are learning about it in elementary school. i sometimes think that the great irony is that teachers got back at the system by teaching environmentalism. I think around the world young people get it.
quen Oh: should there be some unnamed impulse that enforces you to do something you find apparently important?
doug Sosa: It has to seem important, feel important and be something one can do ..
quen Oh: excuse me Paul? you seem to say that brain research proofs that reason is not able to act upon emotions but it is the other way?
quen Oh: that we are nothing more than animals?
quen Oh: with just a wider scope of possible actions, but all determined by emotions?

quen Oh: well doug do you judge environmental global health as important?
doug Sosa: there is always an emotional basis for an action, otherwise the thought has no energy. what reason does is allow us to chose which emotions we want to flow into our actions through our thoughts.

quen Oh: it worries me that apparently emotions, as a natural reaction beyond our control are getting accepted as more important than our reasoning..
quen Oh: what I find remarkable too is that to answer questions on how to get us humans address the environmental problems we study human behaviour or the biological system of our brains
quen Oh: human behaviour is the consequence of our values and our identity, it is what we value and reason as important that will direct our actions
quen Oh: why would the biological system of our brains give us answers, all that is cause and effect and biological is not causing the problem of global environmental problems

2009.08.21 13:00 - PaB - retreat and the books ...

Wol Euler: I'm curious and excited about hte PaB book, pema.
Pema Pera: me too, Wol, about all four of them . . . :-)
Pema Pera: look forward to reading all four!
Wol Euler: heheh
Fox Monacular: yes, Pema, is the book a project that has already started?
Pema Pera: it will officially start right after the retreat, on September 1
Wol Euler: do you envisoin four separately purchaseable bits of tree, or one volume with major sections?
Pema Pera: and in 100 days we're trying to get four 100-page books out
Wol Euler: ah, that answers me.
Pema Pera: out on the web that is -- we can then see what might be publishable
Pema Pera: separately or together or in whatever form
Pema Pera: the first idea is to get material out there
Pema Pera: as introductions
Pema Pera: the wiki is a bit too formidable an entry point for newcomers, I think
Wol Euler: true.
Pema Pera: and also currently we don't have a consise summary of main points, ideas behind, and background for, PaB
Pema Pera: I like deadlines . . .
Pema Pera: in my experiences little happens without them
Pema Pera: and 100 days seems doable

2009.08.21 19:00 Missing