22-24 - Tip of the Retreat Feeling

    The 22-24 Zeit slice thru Eos' Geist...


    2009.08.22 07:00 - Beer Day and the Un-Retreat

    Eliza Madrigal likes to tease Ya about being quiet 
    Wol Euler: :) 
    Wol Euler: an experienced quieter. 
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it's often not even that i wouldn't have to say anything it's just that i have a lack of words for what i think 
    Eliza Madrigal nods... certainly understands that feeling 

    Yakuzza Lethecus: but the funny thing it's not only about the foreign language it's about words in general because i don't know such a group even in my real life 
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so i've never been exposed to thoughts about spirtuality and even emotions are not kind of a big topic to talk about 
    Eliza Madrigal: I agree Yakuzza, the 'way' we discuss things is often quite different... a good model most of the time 
    Wol Euler nods. These kind of discussions are pretty rare in my RL too. 
    Eliza Madrigal: I have noticed at times, RL conversations taking on distinctly more PaB feels to them... sometimes with people one wouldn't expect 

    discussion of next RL retreat...

    Wol Euler: we could certainly do it in germany, we could easily find retreat-type places with accomodation and catering 
    Wol Euler: and there is no shortage of major airports to choose from 
    Wol Euler whispers: and the beer is very good 
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods and starts digging coins out of the couch. 
    Eliza Madrigal: Is there a beer day in retreat? 
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh 
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: laughs 
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: maybe the trip would be a leeetle longer? 
    Wol Euler: there would be if I were planning one. 
    Eliza Madrigal laughs 
    Eliza Madrigal: silent beer drinking day 
    Wol Euler: Appreciate the Presence of Intoxication as a Present from Being 

    Bertram Jacobus: what comes into my mind here, is : is pab a method without any teachers ? 
    Wol Euler: maybe :) 
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm open to all kinds of ideas, but putting the two things together, I realize that Bertram's question speaks to something I find myself balancing... formal 'practice' model (ie teacher structure) and pab model...those exist together in my picture... am figuring it out :) 
    Bertram Jacobus: so many possible and thinkable forms ! 
    Eliza Madrigal: A retreat can be a real opportunity to taste a kind of freeing structure 
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: wow. 
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: taste a freeing structure. 
    Corvuscorva Nightfire rolls this around in her mind, loving it. 

    2009.08.22 13:00 - Philosophy or science

    Wol Euler was guardian for this wordy session about words. Doug and I talked in circles for an hour, because I would not let go of wanting to discuss the difference between the two terms, and he insisted on the common ground between them.

    doug Sosa: What is a deipnosophist?
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: "dinner table philosopher", my new favourite word
    doug Sosa: ah.. what is philosophy for you?
    Wol Euler: well :)

    doug Sosa: To me philosophy began with "what is the good life, how to live", the use of wisdom to deal with that question.
    Wol Euler: I'd go with any attempt to understand non-physical reality (which is "science")
    Wol Euler: meaning that the boundary between philosophy and religious thought is pretty porous
    Wol Euler: but I'm cool with that.
    doug Sosa: The idea of "physical" is just an attemtp to deal with bumping into things that seem to exist independent of mind.
    Wol Euler: true, but "philosophy" tends not to be much concerned wtih things you bump into.
    doug Sosa: hm?
    Wol Euler: as I understand it, anyway.
    doug Sosa: You see phil and science as different?
    Wol Euler: yes, I do.

    doug Sosa: and science is never "right", every theory has turned out to be fundamentally wong.
    Wol Euler: that's not the point!
    doug Sosa: what isn't?
    Wol Euler: proving a theory false is scientific.
    Wol Euler: that the theory CAN be disproven at all is what makes it science, not religion.

    Is imprecision "better" than using appropriate words?

    doug Sosa: langage is like a boomerang. The better you throw it the more likely to get hit by it :)
    Wol Euler: that is exactly why we need to be precise and careful of the words we use. They are not just sweet sounds.
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps it is time to create appropriat words to more clearly define subjects of our conversations
    doug Sosa: i think that precision gets in the way of good use of words. Doesn't help.
    Wol Euler: I disagree entirely.

    Wol Euler: I'm still wondering whether you think these words have separate meanings, or if you think they are synonyms.
    doug Sosa: sometimes one, somtimes the other.
    Wol Euler: hmmmm. How do you tell which it is? Are they synonyms in months ending in "r"?
    doug Sosa: that would tie their meaning to the calendar. not likely.
    Wol Euler: ok, so you have some other method of deciding whether they are synonyms or separate concepts?
    doug Sosa: well, i said they are fluid, so why would i work so hard to put them in pigeonholes?
    Wol Euler nods.

    doug Sosa: remember that PaB is about dropping categories so we can pay more attention to our experiences.
    Wol Euler: sure, but it is also about describing those experiences to ourselves and each other.
    Wol Euler: to do that we have to use words, since I cannot experience your experience first-hand

    doug Sosa: of i thought i had you cornered only you didn't see it :)
    Wol Euler: um, you're right, I didn't and still don't :)
    Wol Euler: which I guess proves that we are talking AT not TO each other.

    2009.08.22 19:00 - Avatars, aging and population

    doug Sosa: good. the idea here is to see what the world is like if we try to drop assumptions about it. For example, for me the solidity of objects turns out to be a construction. if i drop it there is more movement.

    Pila Mulligan: I'm only 63 years old, so it may be too early to claim the excuse, but my mind is relaxing for sure
    Pila Mulligan: lazy even
    Paul Namiboo: Hah, I'm 77
    Pila Mulligan: well, there you go :)
    Pila Mulligan: you can claim the prize :)
    Paul Namiboo: some prize!
    doug Sosa: as i tell my friends, i've few clues that I am not 25, and several that I am.
    Pila Mulligan: that's the second oldest age I've seen in Second Life, Paul
    Paul Namiboo: My mind is still childish, and I intend to keep it that way

    2009.08.23 01:00 - About media and something else

    Susi Alcott: few years back there was news in Finland that all such places that one can study astronomy was full, and many willing ones didn't get the opportunity
    Susi Alcott: 'they' took also that to be news that most of these students were young women
    Susi Alcott: the most common comment from them to the question ; 'why', was this; 'I want to study from where I come from'

    Susi Alcott: there is this person Martin Keitel in Finland; he's famous of his examinings of them crop circles; he is a friend to me
    Susi Alcott: he accepted the thought that they are messages
    Susi Alcott: he's examined them for more than 15 years
    Susi Alcott: he sais he's been on fake and genuine crop circles
    Susi Alcott: and knows the difference how they have been created

    Qt Core: (my mistake ratio increase the more i'm emotional ;-) )
    Susi Alcott: that's one thought model to understand too ; sure
    Wol Euler: QT, that's the "body language" of SL :)

    2009.08.23 07:00 - Like a Cloud of Companions


    doug Sosa: i am coming out of one of those dreams that is so intense, real, detailed, i still wonder, what are those about, how come they can happen?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Care to share doug?
    doug Sosa: just that. the actual dream involves lawyers, accounting, friends, hotels, offices..
    Eliza Madrigal: Problem solving?
    doug Sosa: the interesting part is the harder transition from such a dream to rl or sl.

    Eliza Madrigal: My thinking is that we have a sliver of access to our capacities when awake due to concerns, etc, and then at night we can relax and have more access...?

    doug Sosa: from a PaB point of view, coming out of an itense dream is an experience to explore - and marvel at.

    Qt Core: (thinking about the morning dream when i dream i'm getting up, dressed, have breakfast and then i really awoke and see i'm late... but wonder if it is a second dream or reality

    Gaya Ethaniel: But you know, there isn't much one can do with people who don't let go of the past.
    Gaya Ethaniel: They have to allow themselves to let go of whatever they are stuck with.
    doug Sosa: if we work it, we can get that frozen energy back into waking life and be more whole.
    Adams Rubble: and then love them as they are
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, nice description Doug
    doug Sosa: :) blush
    Eliza Madrigal: So can we then create an environment... like prepare ground that makes it easier for others to let go?
    Adams Rubble: let go of our own attachment or revulsion to their attachment
    doug Sosa: wonderful idea. How?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, wow, yes... revulsion
    Adams Rubble: just let it go
    Adams Rubble: love them for what they are
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes I have been working on transforming likes/dislikes into acceptance and appreciation.
    doug Sosa: let it go seems to me different from reclaiming the energy.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, isn't it true that much unforgiveness, etc. is both holding on because each thinks the other can't let go?
    Adams Rubble: I get energy from letting go
    Adams Rubble: when I drop things
    Eliza Madrigal: those things are where the energy is frozen maybe?
    Adams Rubble: we might be dealing with words
    Adams Rubble: the energy is there but things are in the way
    doug Sosa: yes, the holder is free of the holding but, and this is a bit more radical, the thing let go of also has energy, oru energy, and letting it go is to keep it at a distance, an infinite distance.

    Doug makes an interesting statement 
    doug Sosa: Instead of waking and leaving the dream behind, what if - i've been experimenting - we bring it into our awake life, like a cloud of companions.
    Adams Rubble: On some level it does not matter what they think we are
    Adams Rubble: it is what we know we are :)

    doug Sosa: the dream is so intense it is remembered. it tends to fade. keep the characters alive into wakefulness. It is like
    doug Sosa: going around with a gang, but that is part of the fun, and seriousness.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)


    Fermicelli Benelli: i start with moving camera see textures of your clothes and skins to see who you are ....
    Fermicelli Benelli: just like i do in rl
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, that is ONE very normal way to analyse situations and such ...
    Fermicelli Benelli: lol
    Adams Rubble: and then?
    Fermicelli Benelli: than get impresion of space the room architecture vegetation ...
    Fermicelli Benelli: and the way we sit
    Fermicelli Benelli: circle got the power within
    Fermicelli Benelli: we are knights of the round table

    Adams Rubble: Fern, the unifying part of our group is our regular stopping to see reality, to look at ourselves and what we are doing

    Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day and hope to see you later :)
    Adams Rubble: bye Gaya :)
    Eliza Madrigal: "Bodhi Gaya is the place where Gautama Buddha attained unsurpassed, supreme Enlightenment."

    2009.08.23 19:00 - A short conversation

    Paul Namiboo: Hi -- no, my wife has agreed to wait for dinner -- PaB is more important -- HI
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol, and how did you convince her of that
    Paul Namiboo: convince her by being married ~55 years!

    Vajra Radikal: is it me or this fountain just got smaller

    doug Sosa: meanwhile boredom is not possible here, becausse a quiet mind is very interesting!

    doug Sosa: I would have liked princeton, i visited the institute in 1885
    stevenaia Michinaga: I hope not
    stevenaia Michinaga: it didn't exist back then
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: 1885
    doug Sosa: ouch, 1985. did you exist then?
    stevenaia Michinaga: not I or the institute
    doug Sosa: about half the world wasn't born yet.
    doug Sosa: It is an illusion sort of that the world will change before we die.

    2009.08.24 01:00 - Silent

    While listening to the birdsong, Gaya sorted some old pictures.

    Sunset in March.jpg

    2009.08.24 07:00 - Crickets

    A guardian was present and alone so no-one said a thing.

    2009.08.24 13:00 - Next year in ...Europe?..America?..Kathmandu?

    Scathach Rhiadra: How are you today? 
    Yakuzza Lethecus: fine thanks, just trying to get to other thoughts 
    Scathach Rhiadra: :) 
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and pab is often good for that, if we come to a topic :) 
    Yakuzza Lethecus: or other people are since i just read most of the time 
    Scathach Rhiadra: true, we will have to see what emerges:) 

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello SophiaSharon 
    Gaya Ethaniel: A new skin :) 
    Gaya Ethaniel: And yeah ... changed shape too :) 

    Scathach Rhiadra: so, the 'left-behinds'.... 
    SophiaSharon Larnia: haha 
    Wol Euler: :) 
    Wol Euler suppresses a sob. 
    SophiaSharon Larnia: aww Wol :) 
    Wol Euler: yeah :) 
    Gaya Ethaniel: We are here though. 
    Scathach Rhiadra passes Wol a tissue:( 
    Wol Euler smiles damply and blows her nose 

    Wol Euler: I would definitely like to have a retreat somewhere in Europe, for the rest of us 

    Wol Euler: late spring can be quite lovely here. 
    Wol Euler: have to see when people would be able to trvel 

    SophiaSharon Larnia: kind of personal, but would in exercises like that, participants create a stream of consciousness type thing, and I wouldn't want to disrupt that 
    Bertram Jacobus: disrupt or participate - is my spontaneous association ... 
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes :) 
    Bertram Jacobus: can be same thing and "only" different view (?) ... 
    Wol Euler: yes, why would your contributions "disturb" instead of enriching? 
    SophiaSharon Larnia: being present is in a way automatically participating 
    Scathach Rhiadra: can also be felt pressure to participate, which is not so spontaneous  
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes thats part of it 
    Fael Illyar: ah, you mean like thinking it's not ok to be silent and say nothing? 
    SophiaSharon Larnia: my thoughts turn on a dime so to speak, chaotic :p 
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Fael 
    Fael Illyar smiles 'It's very much ok.' 


    Wol Euler: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/8216991.stm
    Wol Euler: a little amusement for the evening (or afternoon) 
    Fael Illyar smiles. 
    Wol Euler: so. 
    Arisia Vita: a needle pulling thread... 
    Wol Euler: :) 
    Wol Euler: http://vimeo.com/6058195

    2009.08.24 19:00 - Writing

    Paul Namiboo: I'm a newbie, haven't even managed to change my hair color -- but I think I like it dark, makes me more contemplative
    Pila Mulligan: yes, you have a theologian's aura Paul
    stevenaia Michinaga: can you explain the connection for you, Paul?
    Paul Namiboo: I was introduced by my friend Doug Sosa -- I'm interested in very big questions (perhaps with no answers) such as "what is human life for?"

    Threedee Shepherd: A Zen Haiku: Departing geese do not intend their reflection in the lake below"
    stevenaia Michinaga: "The saying 'a wet bird never flies at night' was a catch phrase used by Jackie Vernon - a stand up comic on the television in the 70's

    Threedee Shepherd: Long term memory is very stable, especially if accessed every now ant then. As us old guys and gals age, short term memory ceases to work as well as it did when younger.
    Paul Namiboo: You are of course correct 3D -- can you also then explain the "tip-of-the-tongue" phenomenon?

    Hana Furlough: so how did everyone's 9 secs go today?
    Pila Mulligan: mine were fine, but just afew
    Hana Furlough: how about you, lingerer?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I come here to pause
    stevenaia Michinaga: or in tonights case, spend time with tongue metaphors
    Hana Furlough: : )

    Lingerer Xaris: i love the pauses

    stevenaia Michinaga: thinking the tip of your tongue thought must be a place close you cannot see, I proved that was not a good place to put out of reach memories

    Hana Furlough: do you think we can ever get to a place where there is no pause, or everything is a pause?

    Threedee Shepherd: In Japan the equivalent phrase is: "it's on the tip of my finger."
    Threedee Shepherd: because the person who is trying to remember something is actually trying to remember the Kanji ideogram for the thing, and is trying to trace it out with their finger on the palm of their other hand.

    Pila Mulligan: do you write from imagery or do your writing ideas form in words Lingerer?
    Lingerer Xaris: I love calligraphy
    Threedee Shepherd: I have an inverse problem. I often say the words I am typing in a chat such as this and sometimes say a word and then skip typing it.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Lingerer Xaris: it comes as both
    Pila Mulligan: me too
    Lingerer Xaris: when i'm writing a novel or short story, it is mostly images
    Lingerer Xaris: I try to watch the scene unfold and describe what i see
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Hana Furlough: wow that's beautiful
    Lingerer Xaris: but sometimes, in poetry mostly, i hear words
    Pila Mulligan: from your muse
    Lingerer Xaris: YES :)
    Hana Furlough: yes!
    Lingerer Xaris: So, threedee, you say the words out loud?
    Threedee Shepherd: yes but very softly. that is not the case when I am actually writing a "document" however.
    Hana Furlough: interesting~
    Threedee Shepherd: I think it is because I treat type-chat as if I am really talking
    Threedee Shepherd: back to typing: When I am working on something "creative" it feels like the only way I know what I want to be saying is by seeing the results my fingers type

    Meanwhile, the RL Retreat was starting on the 24th....


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