2015.11.23 13:00 - Nothing is better

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Mick
    druth Vlodovic: was listening to Obama say the same thing a couple days later, then heard a republican say that Obama was warning us to be afraid of tourists instead of Syrians
    Mickorod Renard: Hi folks
    Aphrodite Macbain: How are you?
    druth Vlodovic: hey mick
    Mickorod Renard: good ta!
    Aphrodite Macbain: How are the dreams?
    druth Vlodovic: come dangle in the water
    druth Vlodovic: we don't have any fish yet
    Aphrodite Macbain: I keep missing your Thursday session
    Mickorod Renard: no worries
    Mickorod Renard: sussed it out
    Aphrodite Macbain: there, now we all have soggy jeans
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    druth Vlodovic: :P
    Mickorod Renard: I was sad to miss the AI sessions
    Aphrodite Macbain: We can continue to talk about it Mick
    Mickorod Renard: Hi QT
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Qt
    Qt Core: Hi all!
    druth Vlodovic: do you have any AI wisdom for us?
    druth Vlodovic: hey Q
    Aphrodite Macbain: I don't. I am astonished how ignorant I am about the subject.
    druth Vlodovic: this is SL, no such thing as being behind, the train is always moving
    Aphrodite Macbain: I have been reading all the urls that have been given out
    Mickorod Renard: well, I am happy to listen if it was to go further.....as I would be behind in the talk
    Mickorod Renard: funnily enough, I had a dream about it
    druth Vlodovic: ohhh, spill
    Aphrodite Macbain: spill?
    druth Vlodovic: dream thing
    Mickorod Renard: u mean: spill the dream?
    Mickorod Renard: ahh
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Mickorod Renard: I think..not sure that QT got it the other week? Mickorod Renard: if not, I am happy to give it out
    Aphrodite Macbain: what did you dream Mick?
    Aphrodite Macbain: sure!
    Mickorod Renard: hold on..i have it on a card
    Aphrodite Macbain: thanks
    druth Vlodovic: maybe that is my problem, I keep trying to use pillows
    Aphrodite Macbain: reads....
    Mickorod Renard: np..but dont feel compelled to read it
    Aphrodite Macbain: smiles- you dreamed of me? lol
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    druth Vlodovic: nice
    Mickorod Renard: I gave the card to Druth and Qt too
    druth Vlodovic: while I was reading I was thinking that an AI war would be dominated by AIs hacking each other and changing their loyalties etc
    druth Vlodovic: then I thought: just like human wars
    Aphrodite Macbain: Quotes from notecard: "This question made me ponder whether ultimately the AI would have a common goal between all units and if this common goal was to serve humanity or the development and perfection of the machine. Surely a single hierarchical AI machine would only come about after some sort of conflict/ competition. If this was so then deception for defence of itself would be necessary."
    Aphrodite Macbain: this is an interesting question Mick
    Aphrodite Macbain: Do you think the perfection of the machine would serve humans or machines?
    Mickorod Renard: yes, I guess at first they would have separate uses and priorities..but ultimately they would become part of one unit like a bee hive
    druth Vlodovic: well, the communists were hoping that too
    Aphrodite Macbain: how do you imagine that happening? We are so different
    Mickorod Renard: yes, this is deep isn't it?
    Aphrodite Macbain: who would/could organize this collaboration?
    Aphrodite Macbain: who would benefit most?
    Mickorod Renard: I thought that perhaps, humans would have to give AI a sort of moral position
    Aphrodite Macbain: say more?
    druth Vlodovic: I'm not sue morals is a good way to go
    Mickorod Renard: and what I fear is that humans themselves don't seem to be able to keep to the set of rules we hope to live by
    Aphrodite Macbain: true
    Aphrodite Macbain: but who decides which moral positions are the best?
    --BELL--
    Mickorod Renard: then I guess it would become defined from a scientific position
    Aphrodite Macbain: you mean an objective position?
    Aphrodite Macbain: what would serve most people and AIs?
    druth Vlodovic: if the machines start to take over we give them philosophy and wait for them to shut down :P
    Mickorod Renard: and this brings us back to some utopian ideal like the Nazi's may have dreamt up
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    Aphrodite Macbain: amazing how much harm is done through ideologies
    Aphrodite Macbain: "my ideology is the right one..."
    Mickorod Renard: yes, look at all the different positions in Philosophy
    druth Vlodovic: it is said that Machiavelli was mainly vilified because he discarded utopia in favour of direct observation
    Mickorod Renard: well, he is a good example of honesty in my opinion, although not widely owned up to
    Aphrodite Macbain: What do you think Qt?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Could AIs be more objective? Less self serving?
    Mickorod Renard: machines have to be about efficiency....I think..but humans are inherently costly
    Qt Core: it needs a goal
    druth Vlodovic: I suspect we will end up with a more mixed society, rather than one dominated by any one category
    Aphrodite Macbain: Since humans make computers, I would think that any belief system a robot holds would reflect those of humans.
    Qt Core: until they reprogram themselves
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    druth Vlodovic: nature hates efficiency, since it is never really sustainable
    Mickorod Renard: with cyber attacks it would have to have a defence
    Aphrodite Macbain: Is that even possible Qt?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Or is that just a human fear of the unknown?
    Mickorod Renard: so self serving - would have to be in its own interest..to survive, then with that instinct built in, it would surely develop to become suspicious
    Mickorod Renard: a paranoid AI
    Aphrodite Macbain: could a robot reprogram itself?
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Mickorod Renard: that is what they want, a computer that can learn by itself
    druth Vlodovic: I thought that reprogramming oneself was the necessary point for something to be AI
    Aphrodite Macbain: all biological species have evolved to continue its own species
    Aphrodite Macbain: Maybe not re-programming, but learning more facts...
    Qt Core: probably, but the question is why, how it will choose a new program instead of the old one... back to the "they have to have a goal to reach"
    Aphrodite Macbain: does increased knowledge give an AI the will or desire to change?
    druth Vlodovic: have to keep an option for unlearning

    Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Bleu
    druth Vlodovic: hi bleu
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hiya Bleu
    Qt Core: Hi Bleu
    Aphrodite Macbain: you look great!
    Aphrodite Macbain: you are no longer bleu

    druth Vlodovic: the desire to change would be built in by scientists trying to get them to develop
    Bleu Oleander: hehe right
    Mickorod Renard: the latest supercomputers are all about self learning I think...adapting
    Aphrodite Macbain: we are wondering whether it is possible for AIs and humans to work together for a better world
    druth Vlodovic: if you have the capacity to learn, but no desire to do so
    druth Vlodovic: ohhh, punchlintopia
    Aphrodite Macbain: ?
    Mickorod Renard: to learn is the only desire of some people I know
    Aphrodite Macbain: Machines are still machines and don't necessarily "want" anything
    Mickorod Renard: but an interesting point
    Bleu Oleander: probably can build in "want"
    Qt Core: just for the sake to it without practical application of the knowledge, Mick ?
    Mickorod Renard: I wondered once, what it would be like to be a tree or a snail or whatever, it would it be horrid...but I decided that if it's something that has to reproduce to keep on surviving then it must enjoy what it has.
    Aphrodite Macbain: You would only want to be something else if you were aware of it being an improvement
    Mickorod Renard: yes Aph, I guess a snail would think it's disgusting to be a human
    Aphrodite Macbain: survival is different from improving
    Mickorod Renard: yes Qt I think a machine could just circumnavigate its need to understand why it needs to survive
    druth Vlodovic: funnily enough humans reproduce faster when impoverished or frightened, not sure what to make of this in a philosophical manner though
    Aphrodite Macbain: Is that true druth?
    druth Vlodovic: poor countries do all the population growing
    Aphrodite Macbain: SL is a great way of acting out our desires to be something else
    Bleu Oleander: kinda like eating comfort food maybe?
    druth Vlodovic: I can just see us being dominated by a miserable AI just because it is so restless it spreads everywhere
    Bleu Oleander: has to do with education also
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Mickorod Renard: so if an AI had a survival program..it could become quite ruthless..maybe
    Qt Core: when there are no choices to be made you go back to the basic: instinct, eat, reproduce and die
    Aphrodite Macbain: I see humans always being in the dominant position and using AI to dominate other humans
    Aphrodite Macbain: survival of the fittest a la Darwin...
    Mickorod Renard: could an AI believe that it was under attack by an enemy computer..and then become defensive by becoming offensive?
    druth Vlodovic: depends on what you mean by dominant; anyone seen the movie "end of the world"?
    Aphrodite Macbain: nope
    Bleu Oleander: me either
    druth Vlodovic: not sure on the propriety on giving away the end of a comedic movie
    Aphrodite Macbain: go for it druth
    Mickorod Renard: The latest super computers I think are heavily into encryption...as this is where the latest war is being fought..in cyber space
    druth Vlodovic: but if all tech stopped where would humans be?
    druth Vlodovic: sort of like if everyone just stopped and stared at Hitler when he gave an order
    Aphrodite Macbain: and did nothing?
    druth Vlodovic: yes
    druth Vlodovic: the worst dictator without minions is just a maniac

    Qt Core: but that is "only" number crunching, the furthest away from AI you can go, Mick
    Aphrodite Macbain: who benefits from the encryption?
    Mickorod Renard: maybe QT could inform better encryption?
    Aphrodite Macbain: sounds like Hal
    druth Vlodovic: maybe unionize AI
    druth Vlodovic: make it relatively harmless
    Mickorod Renard: we rely on the computer for survival now
    druth Vlodovic: I wonder how heavy encryption would affect the thought processes of a computer
    Mickorod Renard: even the electricity supply, water everything
    Aphrodite Macbain: sometimes my brain feels like it has been encrypted
    Qt Core: are we hoping for something with human or even higher intelligence but that we can point to whatever issue we want solved and then put it away when done ?
    Mickorod Renard: if someone wanted to whip us, they could hack into the national grid and starve a country
    druth Vlodovic: if they were clever we would blame it on capitalism for the first two weeks
    druth Vlodovic: maybe never catch on
    Mickorod Renard: to feed the world, as we would all wish to do we would need the help of some mighty computers
    druth Vlodovic: ohhh, men are from mars... we are old abandoned AI with heavy encryption!
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    druth Vlodovic: just a slightly different approach to profit taking
    Aphrodite Macbain: I would worry if everything were left to AI
    druth Vlodovic: the old time commies thought what you do Mick, tried to make society logical and organized but they forgot that in the end they are just politicians
    Aphrodite Macbain: besides, which AI would be in charge? There are so many types
    Qt Core: suppose we ask an AI to solve the hunger issue... if beforehand we teach it humans are all equals it would immediately take from us westerners at least half of our food supply and distribute it all over Africa, are we ready for that ? or we teach it that some are more equals than others,,,
    Mickorod Renard: I think, personally, we minions are the exploited, and that's what we will stay, even if AI was in charge
    druth Vlodovic: most hunger in the world can be traced to war
    Aphrodite Macbain: or drought druth
    Aphrodite Macbain: due to global warming
    druth Vlodovic: so maybe it would just take away all the weapons and sharp objects and say "there, done"
    druth Vlodovic: these days? drought is a transportation problem
    Qt Core: stopping wars may stop hunger on the longer period, but immediately there are millions to be fed
    Mickorod Renard: my wife works with SAP.., it's a sort of infant combining of computer resource in big companies..so that they can see the whole picture..more efficient
    druth Vlodovic: not even a wealth problem unless the politicians get involved
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods- it's essential to see the big picture if you are going to make changes
    druth Vlodovic: coincidence i think http://www.mikeldunham.blogs.com/mik...hquakes-s.html

    Arisia Vita: greetings all
    Mickorod Renard: hi Ari
    druth Vlodovic: the probklem is what to do with the big picture
    Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Ari
    Qt Core: hi Ari
    Bleu Oleander: hiya Ari
    druth Vlodovic: hi ari

    druth Vlodovic: I have seen the big picture;  used to ignore the facts, and damage operations in order to extract kudos and bonuses
    Mickorod Renard: I recon one thing that keeps us human is our inability to see the whole picture
    Aphrodite Macbain: you and Qt match, Ari
    druth Vlodovic: if you want to know what an AI would do without a societal induced sense of right and wrong, look at the operation of a multinational :(
    Aphrodite Macbain: we are wondering what might happen if AI took over, Ari
    Aphrodite Macbain: From Mick's notecard: "I started to see that we as humans are already destined to be slave to the machine." Isn't the first world already slave to the machine?
    Mickorod Renard: one thing is for sure, AI is coming
    Aphrodite Macbain: AI is already here
    Mickorod Renard: yep
    Aphrodite Macbain: but I don't believe in Singularity however
    druth Vlodovic: the first world is slave to the machine the same way Harper was slave to Canada, he was entirely dependent on us to feed him so...
    Mickorod Renard: we may be singled out
    Aphrodite Macbain: Noam Chomsky thinks Singularity is a ridiculous idea
    Aphrodite Macbain: As does John Searle
    Mickorod Renard: Chomsky thinks the singularity is ridiculous?
    Aphrodite Macbain: yes
    Mickorod Renard: ohh
    Aphrodite Macbain: there is a great YouTube video of him talking about AI
    Aphrodite Macbain: He calmly and logically takes it apart
    Aphrodite Macbain: says there are more important things to do and solve today
    Qt Core: after all we "just" need a way to have an AI access all the data it wants/needs but with no way to act in the physical world and there will be no issues
    Aphrodite Macbain: exactly!
    Bleu Oleander: https://www.singularityweblog.com/no...ience-fiction/
    Aphrodite Macbain: that's the one Bleu! :-)
    druth Vlodovic: lol qt
    druth Vlodovic: back before the internet hackers could remotely mess with people's water and electricity
    Qt Core: then we'll discover if an AI can be born without letting it experiment...
    druth Vlodovic: that genie is out of the bottle
    Aphrodite Macbain: Humans experiment. AI's obey
    Qt Core: that's the  problem of the "just" part druth ;-)
    druth Vlodovic: my thought is that we would never acknowledge that an AI is intelligent until it changed the educational curriculum to make our kids believe it is.
    Bleu Oleander: :)
    Aphrodite Macbain: Did it change the curriculum or did the teachers?
    Mickorod Renard: well, the future need for human workforce changed the curriculum and here in UK it's IT or computer science or robotics in schools

    druth Vlodovic: oh, the singularity, ever spent years in a small town that "never changed" then went away a few years?
    Qt Core: we could put the AI in a virtual world, without the AI noticing its virtuality, but for that and the AI growing ok we would need to perfectly simulate RL -- a problem in itself
    druth Vlodovic: stick it in SL
    Aphrodite Macbain: sounds interesting Qt ....could we ever do that though?
    Aphrodite Macbain: what needs does SL serve that AI cant?
    Qt Core: bling ?
    druth Vlodovic: lol
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bling for sure
    Mickorod Renard: one could say Ai has already changed the way we as humans are being steered
    Aphrodite Macbain: AI allows us to communicate
    Mickorod Renard: or disallows us to in some countries
    Aphrodite Macbain: AI allows for our creativity to be expressed
    Aphrodite Macbain thinks of Bleu's Machinanima.
    Mickorod Renard: it makes the world small
    Mickorod Renard: easier to manage
    Qt Core: i haven't read much about the current level of AI, but I'm quite convinced that the "truer" ones are small and of little use, the bigger ones, like Watson from IBM are just big number cruncher, faking AI
    Aphrodite Macbain: AI?
    Aphrodite Macbain: that's what Chomsky said too Qt
    Arisia Vita: How would we know when a true AI arrives?
    Bleu Oleander: when it gets an avi in sl ...
    Arisia Vita: what would it do?
    druth Vlodovic: what is the real function and use of the human mind?
    Aphrodite Macbain: Good question Ari
    Aphrodite Macbain: to make its owner survive druth?
    Qt Core: at the fundamental level ? to reproduce more

    Mickorod Renard: what worries me at the mo is how the direction that super computers are being used to keep secrets for national security from cyber attack
    druth Vlodovic: not to fundamentalists aph
    druth Vlodovic: crunching reality I guess
    Mickorod Renard: crunching numbers helped break the codes in ww2
    druth Vlodovic: making survival match reality and vice versa; my guess
    Aphrodite Macbain: many computers are useless or dangerous, some are just money makers (Watson); and a few are handy - like my cell phone (when it doesn't break down)
    Aphrodite Macbain: or decrypts codes
    druth Vlodovic: listening to Gowan doesn't really help mindfulness pauses
    Mickorod Renard: AI is the war helper of the present and future sparring partners
    Aphrodite Macbain: Gowan?
    druth Vlodovic: good singer
    Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
    Aphrodite Macbain: there's another use for your AI
    Mickorod Renard: yes?
    druth Vlodovic: we are developing AI's and using them to keep secrets and kill people sigh
    Aphrodite Macbain: listening to music
    Aphrodite Macbain: but it is serving humans, not taking over...
    Qt Core: even better writing music... but some program for that are already there, again just number crunchers
    Aphrodite Macbain: nods
    druth Vlodovic: was reading a web comic where they found the secret of eternal life and used it to develop super soldiers, "they found the secret of eternal life and used it to kill people" sounds about right...
    Qt Core: seems quite a human thing to do...
    Mickorod Renard: I find it a bit scary
    Aphrodite Macbain: Survival of the fittest and oldest
    druth Vlodovic: what does a mind do besides processing information and making decisions Qt?
    Qt Core: generate heat ? dream ? wish ?

    Mickorod Renard: give me a sword or dagger anytime..but fighting some unseen Ai several miles away, well...
    Bleu Oleander: bye all
    Aphrodite Macbain: Bye BLeu!
    Arisia Vita: bye bleu
    Mickorod Renard: bye BLEU
    druth Vlodovic: ttfn bleu
    Qt Core: bye Bleu

    druth Vlodovic: dreaming and wishing
    Aphrodite Macbain: And feeling emotion
    Aphrodite Macbain: and thinking or remembering
    Aphrodite Macbain: all are useful for survival
    Qt Core: thinking is just the process of making decisions
    druth Vlodovic: lol, no wonder these things are denigrated on practical levels, who wants their servant 'bots doing that?
    Aphrodite Macbain:
    Mickorod Renard: what if they programmed the AI with the Buddha's understanding?
    Aphrodite Macbain: nice
    Aphrodite Macbain: with Buddha's compassion
    druth Vlodovic: upload the Dalai Lama
    Aphrodite Macbain: grins
    Aphrodite Macbain: now we're talking!
    Mickorod Renard: it would then do nothing
    Aphrodite Macbain: lol
    Mickorod Renard: I think the nothing was what my dream was about, nothing is better
    Aphrodite Macbain: speaking of doing nothing ...
    druth Vlodovic: faith can move mountains, so why aren't mountains running about? wisdom
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Aphrodite Macbain: I should get back to RL
    druth Vlodovic: poor thing
    Mickorod Renard: me too
    Arisia Vita: me too
    Mickorod Renard: great chat
    druth Vlodovic: have fun all
    Arisia Vita: it's been great being here
    Qt Core: same here
    Qt Core: bye all!
    Mickorod Renard: bye all..thanks
    Aphrodite Macbain: a chat made great by all of you
    Arisia Vita: see you all again soon
    Aphrodite Macbain: thank you

     

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