The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Riddle.
Riddle Sideways: back
ElanVitalo Resident: Hi, Riddle.
Riddle Sideways: UPS truck was here
ElanVitalo Resident: Ahhh! Fun!
Riddle Sideways: ok ... hi y'LL (again)
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks for your link to various types of AI, Riddle.
Riddle Sideways: yw
Bruce Mowbray: I don't know if you received the email that I sent about 15 minutes ago....
Riddle Sideways: yes got it
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Riddle Sideways: replied to yourself
Bruce Mowbray: this subject is so broad that I thought it might be good to introduce a bit of constraint on the definition(s).
Riddle Sideways: good
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Bruce Mowbray: in the spirit of the topic, , I decided to use Dragon NaturallySpeaking today... but I'm discovering it's not quite as 'intelligent' as I'd hoped.
Bruce Mowbray: . I haven't used it for a few months so it's probably getting senile.
ElanVitalo Resident: I think that the topic of artificial intelligence is already so enormous that would probably take an artificial brain to embrace it all.
ElanVitalo Resident: (That was supposed to be a joke.) robot joke.
ElanVitalo Resident dies from laughing....
Riddle Sideways: yes, robot joke
Bruce Mowbray nods, doesn't laugh.
Bruce Mowbray: well then,
Riddle Sideways: was watching a YouTube presentation earlier
Riddle Sideways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m97_kL4ox0
Riddle Sideways: it is tooo long, but
Bruce Mowbray: I will check it -  just a sec.
Riddle Sideways: interesting in creating AI through evolution
Riddle Sideways: wait to watch later
Bruce Mowbray: I actually have downloaded a similar Polyworld video and have it on my desktop.
Bruce Mowbray: . I would love to be able to write Java code in three dimensions and have forms evolve that way....
Riddle Sideways: evolution tries combinations and the successful continue
Riddle Sideways: and some random screwups
Bruce Mowbray: and that brings up a topic that we didn't mention either this morning all yesterday... the idea of rewards.
Bruce Mowbray: there needs to be some feedback system by which the algorithm "learns"
Riddle Sideways: like the old simple tic-tac-toe learning game
Riddle Sideways: it only knew the game rules at start
Riddle Sideways: tried playing and record good/bad results
Riddle Sideways: got better as it went
Riddle Sideways: would try the never tried combos sometimes
Riddle Sideways: is that the sort of thing?
Qt Core: Hi all
Riddle Sideways: hi QT
Bruce Mowbray: genetic algorithms are useful, to be sure... , from what I gather from the YouTube video, Polyworld "learns" through genetic algorithms.
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, QT!
Bruce Mowbray: Riddle and I were just discussing Poly-world as an example of artificial intelligence, using genetic algorithms.    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyworld
Riddle Sideways: given a 'goal' of swimming ... try some genes that have possibilities
Bruce Mowbray: I was little surprised that no one mentioned the idea of rewards yesterday - letting the software experience some sort of "gratification" for having solved a problem well.
Riddle Sideways: yes, how the tic-tac-toe game worked
Riddle Sideways: and children learn
Bruce Mowbray: isn't Polyworld, also a sort of rule-based game, though?
Qt Core: what is rewarding for a machine? a better stabilized electrical furniture ?
Bruce Mowbray: Couldn't algorithms be written that could solve any rule-based game?
Bruce Mowbray: well, QT, the reward would have to be some sort of a points system, which is what neural networks (like Polyworld's) use -- a weighted point system.

--BELL--

Riddle Sideways: yes, functional programming would be producing the goal within the rules
Qt Core: so currency ;-)
Bruce Mowbray nods - of a sort, yes.
Riddle Sideways: would not be experimenting with AI tho
ElanVitalo Resident: yesterday we talked about the possibility of cyborgs becoming more intelligent than humans.... What if the robots assumed that they were playing a game with humans . .
ElanVitalo Resident: that the humans were their opponents . . .
Riddle Sideways: the movie "War Games"?

[excellent example, Riddle]

ElanVitalo Resident: Could the robots defeat their human opponents by rewriting the rules of the game?
Bruce Mowbray: I think that's partly what we meant by 'autonomy,' Elan.
Bruce Mowbray: overriding the humans' rules, as it were.
Riddle Sideways: the way captain Kirk rewrote the game software
Bruce Mowbray listens.
ElanVitalo Resident: Oh, in the A.L.I.C.E material -- Yes!
ElanVitalo Resident: very interesting.
Qt Core: there should be a way to impose [in the AI software] some unchangeable set of rules sure to be transmitted to every new generation
Bruce Mowbray: http://alice.pandorabots.com/
Bruce Mowbray: wouldn't that sort of defeat the learning process, though?
Qt Core: look here for how to make the transmitted part: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?TheKenThompsonHack (the guy is one of the father of the C language and Unix and derivative (like Linux) operating system
Bruce Mowbray: Whew! That's a lot to read!
Qt Core: the summary, second paragraph is this: Ken describes how he injected a virus into a compiler. Not only did his compiler know it was compiling the login function and injecting a backdoor, but it also knew when it was compiling itself and injected the backdoor generator into the compiler it was creating. The source code for the compiler thereafter contains no evidence of either virus.
Bruce Mowbray: Wow. TY for that summary!
Bruce Mowbray: so the computer took on a sort of autonomy, , right?
Riddle Sideways: was thinking that yesterday. all robots need a backdoor and/or off switch that they themselves do not know of
ElanVitalo Resident: I can envision a whole network of computers - accessed serially, or in parallel, each of which would change the rules. . . .
ElanVitalo Resident: and each of which would create new login functions, et cetera.
ElanVitalo Resident: ultimately, the only thing capable of controlling the program would be that network of computers itself.
Bruce Mowbray: interesting idea, Elan.
Riddle Sideways: society knows the basic rules to some game (e.g. checkers) and does not rewrite them
Qt Core: the idea here is making it impossible for a computer/cyborg to not have some basic safety features
Riddle Sideways: or nobody would play with them
Bruce Mowbray: another thing we didn't talk about yesterday was the Singularity.
Bruce Mowbray: the "Singularity" is usually defined (by Kurzweil, etc) as the point in time (Kurzweil says 2045) when humans are outsmarted by machines which they are no longer capable of understanding or overriding.
Riddle Sideways: that wikipedia article on tech singularity had all kinds of experts guessing different dates
Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
Qt Core: it was mentioned in other words a few times as "when computers will became more intelligent than humankind"
Bruce Mowbray: there is an excellent blog called Singularity one-on-one.
Bruce Mowbray: I will find the link...
Bruce Mowbray: brb.
Bruce Mowbray: https://www.singularityweblog.com/category/podcasts/
Qt Core: wondering about The Hidden Singularity (my own TM) as in computer take over the world without letting us humans notice it
Bruce Mowbray: the manager of the blog has interviewed almost all of the major characters in the artificial intelligence community from Marvin Minsky to Kurzweil.
Riddle Sideways: ... may have hit the browser tab singularity ... with more tabs open then can ever be read
Bruce Mowbray: Yeah, I've done that!
ElanVitalo Resident: I think Brucie made a good point when he said that there is a difference between mere processing (or calculation) and "learning."
Riddle Sideways: wtf - 180 podcasts !!
ElanVitalo Resident: Watson and Wolfram Alpha would not qualify as "intelligent." by that standard.
Bruce Mowbray: yes. His blog is amazing.  The interviews are terrific,
Bruce Mowbray: and he is a very congenial interviewer.
Bruce Mowbray: I have downloaded almost all of the podcasts into my computer for listening to, while I'm cleaning house or walking along the road.
ElanVitalo Resident: !

--BELL--
 
Riddle Sideways: ah
Bruce Mowbray: the Moderator of that blog calls himself "Socrates" --- and he interviews novelists (science-fiction), neuroscientists, programmers, professors, and futurists of all sorts.
Bruce Mowbray: in one way or another, all of his interviews focus around the issues of artificial intelligence and the Singularity.
ElanVitalo Resident: hmmmm.
Riddle Sideways: well 180 = frozen to life
 Riddle Sideways: wondering if #180 "Frozen to Life" is about AI
ElanVitalo Resident: Hi, Kori.
Korel Laloix: Osiyo
Riddle Sideways: on the website list of podcasts
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Kori.
Riddle Sideways: hi Korel
Qt Core: Hi Korel
Riddle Sideways: yep
Bruce Mowbray: OH yes! I listened to that, and forgot about it already. . It's about cryonics.
Bruce Mowbray: I guess cryonics could be considered one form of transhumanism.
Bruce Mowbray: I forgot to mention that Socrates also interviews medical doctors -- , especially about using technology to prolong life, or to augment our current mental capacities.
ElanVitalo Resident: hmmmm.
ElanVitalo Resident: there are three movies that I would recommend for anyone interested in artificial intelligence and robotics.
ElanVitalo Resident: . One is "Her," another is "Transcendence" and the third is "Ex Machina."
Riddle Sideways: seen the first
Riddle Sideways: maybe the second
Qt Core: seen the last
ElanVitalo Resident: Transcendence comes the closest to playing around with the Singularity.
Bruce Mowbray: I enjoyed all three of those movies, Elan.
Riddle Sideways: are these sessions becoming "The Search for Signs of Intelligent Life in the Universe" :)
Riddle Sideways: (avatar joke, Elan)
Bruce Mowbray: Could be!
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha.
Bruce Mowbray: I suspect that as artificial intelligence grows, our concept of intelligence itself (as well as what it means to be "natural") will also evolve
ElanVitalo Resident: "natural" as opposed to "artificial"?
Bruce Mowbray: yes, that's the point . . . , because, already, what we call natural is very artificial, indeed.
Qt Core: i think we would start calling it real intelligence once we were not be able to tamper with its working
ElanVitalo Resident: hmmm.
Bruce Mowbray: I agree. If it has the capacity to outwit our tampering with it, . I would certainly call it intelligent.
ElanVitalo Resident: or else call yourself stupid, Brucie dear.
Bruce Mowbray: hmmmm.
Qt Core: thinking about an old AI pal, HAL 9000, after it was build it had to be trained for years, not upgraded/made, but trained
ElanVitalo Resident: "trained" = learning?  So, Riddle is working on a project that employs an interface with Watson, is that correct?
Riddle Sideways: not really
Riddle Sideways: playing with a project to build a little Watson Jr.
ElanVitalo Resident: ahhh!
Qt Core: yes but I'm more interested in the idea that it wasn't directly changed
ElanVitalo Resident: that's no small project!
Riddle Sideways: that doesn't need to answer Jeopardy questions in 3 secs.
Bruce Mowbray nods.

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: (A sophisticated database and search engine? -- with a chatbot that can relay the findings?)
Riddle Sideways: QT, (almost certain that) the Google driverless car is not programmed as much as rule-based
ElanVitalo Resident: a self driven car would have to have multiple response capacities . . . I don't know how all of those could be built into its program code, though.
Qt Core: yes, but we still have direct access to the rules
ElanVitalo Resident: I wonder what a self-driving car would do if a rabbit ran across the road.
Riddle Sideways: a sophisticated sensor array to feed an image processors to lookup what a kid on bicycle looks like and what to do about 'seeing' one
ElanVitalo Resident: or a deer, or a person on a bicycle, or a squirrel...
ElanVitalo Resident: would the responses be different?
ElanVitalo Resident: ahhh! But it would have to be very fast with its computing, if it's going to do real time visual processing.
Riddle Sideways: seem to remember hearing that in an interview
Qt Core: http://uk.businessinsider.com/google...15-8?r=US&IR=T
ElanVitalo Resident: you know, I doubt that humans appreciate how much hardware leads where software wants to go.
Riddle Sideways: ah, thanks
Qt Core: Google car Vs a fixed gear bicycle
ElanVitalo Resident: YouTube was physically impossible prior to 2005 because the hardware simply did not exist for video streaming.
Qt Core: basically the car could not understand if it was staying or going
ElanVitalo Resident nods, and listens.
Bruce Mowbray: I don't understand what you mean by the car's "understanding" -- Do you mean discerning the difference between two objects?
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Stevenia.
Riddle Sideways: nice flight (and landing) Stev
stevenaia Michinaga: waves
ElanVitalo Resident: Hi, Steve.
stevenaia Michinaga: thx
Qt Core: it could not understand if the bicycle was standing still or going backward or forward as a fixed gear bicycle would not stop but would go forward a foot and back a foot, never putting a foot down
stevenaia Michinaga: thought I'd show up for the concluding comments, AI good or AI bad?
Bruce Mowbray: I've never understood whether the Google self-operating car was capable of learning, though.
ElanVitalo Resident: Nothing is good or ill, but thinking makes it so.
Riddle Sideways: ah, the word "understanding" has crept into our chat
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I noticed that.
ElanVitalo Resident: Creepy, isn't it?
Riddle Sideways: is that a Singularity point when humans judge that the computer no w "understands"

ElanVitalo Resident: getting close to it, I suspect.

stevenaia Michinaga: nods, AI doesn't kill people - People making AI kill people
 
Bruce Mowbray: Well, Steve, we've hardly even touched the ethical issues of AI, yet.
Riddle Sideways: ha, AI=guns
stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps at my Wednesday 7:00 PM session
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Riddle Sideways: :))
ElanVitalo Resident: You ain't seen nothing yet.... . Wait till drones become armed and can aim themselves and whomever THEY choose.
stevenaia Michinaga: thought that would be one of the main topics
Bruce Mowbray: not yet, Steve.
Riddle Sideways: tease
Bruce Mowbray: We're mostly still exploring the definitions, I think.
stevenaia Michinaga: a good place to start
Bruce Mowbray: as well as the implications of the Singularity.
Bruce Mowbray: I suspect that by the time we realize machines are more intelligent than we are, it will already be too late.
stevenaia Michinaga: aren't those implication ethical? (for us, not for AI)
Bruce Mowbray: there are definitely ethical implications with it, as with every technology.
Riddle Sideways: between sessions went looking for the SL citizen "Hal Cybertar"
Riddle Sideways: which is a bot
ElanVitalo Resident: Once you build a machine that can tell whether or not one's brain is operating, then you've got the (ethical) question of unplugging the life-maintenance systems.
Riddle Sideways: walking the grid
ElanVitalo Resident: *
Qt Core: a simple issue, a superior species has the right to wipe out an inferior and/or obnoxious one and then which will be the superior one ?
stevenaia Michinaga: Did it pass the (what is it called) Turing test?
Bruce Mowbray: Very concisely stated, QT.
stevenaia Michinaga: you mean the winners of the wars?
stevenaia Michinaga: cough
Bruce Mowbray: Yes,  but the "Turing Test" is simply designed to fake out humans... convince humans that the machine is actually, or might possibly be, another human.
Qt Core: may start wearing always a powerful EM emitter ;-)
Riddle Sideways: Loebner(sp?) contest  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loebner_Prize
ElanVitalo Resident: hmmmm.
ElanVitalo Resident: What is that, Riddle?
Riddle Sideways: like the Turing Test
stevenaia Michinaga: well I am off to another meeting, hope I didn't disrupt the conversation
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, Steve.
Riddle Sideways: so many meetings, so little time
Riddle Sideways: bye
Qt Core: bye Steve
ElanVitalo Resident: :)
ElanVitalo Resident: So many distractions, so little focus.
Riddle Sideways: yep
ElanVitalo Resident: :)

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: well, I suppose it's time for me to get intelligent about scraping up supper.
Riddle Sideways: just finished lunch
ElanVitalo Resident: Why don't you get a robot to do that for you, Bruce?
ElanVitalo Resident: I'm off!
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Elan. Stay well oiled.
Riddle Sideways: bye
Qt Core: Bye all
Riddle Sideways: well enough intelligence for one day
Riddle Sideways: well bye, All
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Qt, Riddle, and everyone. Thanks for coming today.
Riddle Sideways: did not let Korel say anything today :(
Riddle Sideways: were talking too fast for any space
Korel Laloix: Sorry... was in and out at the office.
Riddle Sideways: np
Riddle Sideways: see you later, have the best day