2013.11.18 13:00 - And the Stars Look Very Different Today

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

And retaining a sense of wonder about things on Earth? "It's a deliberate choice. Cynicism is the easiest of all reactions, right? But it's also so disappointing and self-defeating."  - Chris Hadfield
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaOC9danxNo)

 

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zon :)
Zon Kwan: hi:)
Eliza Madrigal: How is the day?
Zon Kwan: for monday good
Zon Kwan: and yours ?

Eliza Madrigal: Monday, Monday....

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: Busy, but pleasant
Eliza Madrigal: I've been thinking about the topic question Pema gave us over the weekend...
Eliza Madrigal: "what is your SL-like experience in RL?"
Zon Kwan: hm
Zon Kwan: and what is it ?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce :)
Zon Kwan: hi bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Heay, Zon and Eliza!
Zon Kwan: sl-like experience
Eliza Madrigal: All day I've sort of been stopping as I was at the vet, or various things, and asking "If this were SL would I approach it differently?"
Zon Kwan: smiles
Eliza Madrigal: On a few occasions it did seem to open a little... become a tad more playful
Zon Kwan: hm
Zon Kwan: its true one can be more free in sl than in rl
Zon Kwan: express more freely different sides
Eliza Madrigal: Is it 'just' the anonymity?
Eliza Madrigal: (Bruce I shared Pema's question to us from the guardian session)
Zon Kwan: its that but also more i think
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, and a good question it is, too!
Eliza Madrigal: how so for you, Zon?
Zon Kwan: i think inner and outer mix here easier
Eliza Madrigal: interesting answer!
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Qt!
Qt Core: Hi all!
Zon Kwan: your mind is closer to its expressions

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt, Zen :)
Zon Kwan: hi qt
Zon Kwan: zen :)
Zen Arado: Hi all
Bruce Mowbray: Namaste, Zen.
Eliza Madrigal: 'closer mind' - I wonder if we can almost take that literally... like, more aware of mind
Zon Kwan: i think so

Bruce Mowbray: Heya, aggers.
Zen Arado: Hi Aggers
Zon Kwan: hi agatha
Agatha Macbeth: Hiyaz
Eliza Madrigal: Zen and Qt, I shared Pema's question from this weekend, about our SL experience of RL, and Zon had an interesting answer regarding inner/outer blending more readily here
Qt Core: Hi Agatha
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aggers :)
Eliza Madrigal: what are others' experiences or intuitions? Ever go about the day away from the computer and become more SL-aware-like?

(quiet)

Agatha Macbeth: Maybe that's a 'no' :p
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Zon Kwan: during my years i have become more zon in my rl
Qt Core: since being in SL i become more aware of architecture in RL as in "feeling" the 3d nature of building

Zen Arado: I don't understand the question
Eliza Madrigal: an interesting statement too... do you mean that there is a Zon side you more easily let be expressed?
Zon Kwan: yes
Eliza Madrigal: I'd say both of those are true for me too... even the way I look at shadows has been affected
Zon Kwan: shadows ?
Eliza Madrigal: and being aware that I have RL "draw distances"
Eliza Madrigal: yes... after playing with shadow settings in SL, then going for a walk, I was more aware of shadows
Agatha Macbeth: I never have those on

Zen Arado: ah you mean SL affecting how you view RL?
Zon Kwan: so like perceiving more ?
Eliza Madrigal: yes in part
Bruce Mowbray: me neither, but I'm going to turn shadows on now, thanks to Eliza's comment.
Eliza Madrigal: I'd say "Eliza" is as much expressed in my RL as "typist"
Eliza Madrigal: now, anyway
Zen Arado: or our avatar affecting our so called RL self?
Eliza Madrigal: yes... Or the way Pema asked the question was a little like dream practice...
Eliza Madrigal: in that one is going through their day and may ask whether they are dreaming...
Eliza Madrigal: Let me paste his words :)

Zen Arado: well neither is real I guess
Agatha Macbeth: Frogs and butterflies
Zon Kwan: or both are
Zen Arado: one illusion affected another
Eliza Madrigal: and coarisen with our perceptions?
Zon Kwan: the other just last longer

Eliza Madrigal: This is from guardians' session:

Pema Pera: one general angle would be to take the whole idea of SL as a concrete "alternate reality", a "waking fantasy" and then to see whether we can create other kinds of "concrete reality shifts" while living in RL

Pema Pera: every good novel or film has moments when someone dramatically has his/her eyes opened to a different angle on reality, a different way of being -- and while reading or watching we can feel some of that ourselves;
perhaps we can experiment more concretely with such "shifts" rather than just waiting for them to happen

Pema Pera: when engaged in an activity we can decide to jump out of it, briefly; like when in the middle of a heated discussion: or while walking in the street, lost in thought, we can suddenly look up at the sky
Pema Pera: or while watching a tree, you can switch to letting the tree watch you
Eos Amaterasu: ('scuse me while I kiss the sky)
Eliza (eliza.madrigal): :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Aph (aphrodite.macbain): and we would describe these experiences in some way in SL?
Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
Catrinamonblue: or the butterfly :)
Pema Pera: yes, and ways to work with them a bit more systematically
Eos Amaterasu: like little games?
Pema Pera: instead of being inspired by novels and films, being inspired by our own life
Eos Amaterasu: "being inspired by our own life"
Pema Pera: considering walking on the street, turning a corner, like turning a page in a novel, curiuos what would happen next
Pema Pera: making RL more like SL
Pema Pera: it could be a conversation topic in SL, in general:

what is your SL-like experience in RL: and how can you work with that


Zen Arado: but isn't everyone curious about what is coming next?
Zen Arado: I certainly am

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: I'm not sure. I'm not sure I'm always "presently curious"
Zon Kwan: dreams in dreams in dreams
Eliza Madrigal: (sorry I missed the bell this time...we'll take our 5 minute pause next one :)
Zon Kwan: fooling us to think we are part of one
Zen Arado: sounds like mindfulness
Zen Arado: ?
Eliza Madrigal: contemplation and inquiry
Zon Kwan: noting things

Qt Core: can not paying attention to your surrounding help to notice it ? An example, a week ago i was taken by surprise by a bush on a street i go at least daily, i surely saw it thousand of times before but that day it "jumped" to my attention

Eliza Madrigal: I think the difference is the emphasis on inquiry
Eliza Madrigal: yes, Qt!
Eliza Madrigal: isn't that strange??
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe it's a Fourth way thing
Eliza Madrigal: Fourth Way, Agatha?
Eliza Madrigal: like fourth time?
Agatha Macbeth: What Gurdjieff said
 

Gurdjieff said that his Fourth Way was a quicker means than the first three ways because it simultaneously combined work on all three centers rather than focusing on one as is done in the first three ways, that it could be followed by ordinary people in everyday life, requiring no retirement into the desert. The Fourth Way does involve certain conditions imposed by a teacher, but blind acceptance of them is discouraged. Each student is advised to do only what they understand, and to verify for themselves the veracity of the teaching's ideas.

By bringing together the way of the Fakir (Sufi tradition), the way of the Yogi (Hindu and Sikh traditions) and the way of the Monk (Christian and Buddhist traditions, amongst others) Gurdjieff clearly places the Fourth Way at a crossroads of differing beliefs. (wikipedia)

Zen Arado: the mind tries to fool us into regularizing every day...just another day...but each day is totally different
Zon Kwan: mind likes continuity
Eliza Madrigal: ah, yes... in some ways it is like being a playful skeptic
Zen Arado: yeh
Eliza Madrigal: but I wonder... when you notice something, like Qt noticed...doesn't it sort of throw "everything" into question?
Zen Arado: people with Aspergers look at every detail in a room every time they enter it...the rest of us just examine it the first time

Eliza Madrigal: like we can't fathom all we're missing
Eliza Madrigal: hmmm
Eliza Madrigal: (to become) non-complacent
Zen Arado: our brains make shortcuts
Agatha Macbeth: If we can't fathom it how do we know we're missing it? ;)
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Eliza Madrigal: well we have an inkling :P
Agatha Macbeth grins
Zen Arado: we only see a tiny fraction around us

Bruce Mowbray: Do our brains look for shortcuts or for networks? --
Eliza Madrigal: say more?
Zon Kwan: they look for stories
Bruce Mowbray: and sometimes those connections between nodes of networks are actually shortcuts.
Qt Core: but then after a while everything would become a boring "itsallthesomeness"
Agatha Macbeth: Back to the Doors of perception I guess
Zen Arado: survival shortcuts
Eliza Madrigal: ah, I see... pathways
Bruce Mowbray: but perhaps shouldn't underplay the network structure that makes the shortcut both possible and practical.
Eliza Madrigal: only if the network blinds us in other ways
Zen Arado: lately I was learning about music effects like delays and they are all around us but I never notice echos from walls etc
Eliza Madrigal: have talked about it before but a free-runner looks at an alleyway quite differently from the way a person might who is just trying to get home... they are seeing many optional pathways that might be hidden

Bruce Mowbray: Are you saying that there really is no such thing as "silence," Zen?
Zen Arado: not really
Bruce Mowbray: I'm thinking about echoes...
Zen Arado: a quiet room is around 30 DB
Bruce Mowbray: and hearing those for the first time...
Bruce Mowbray: and seeing shadows...
Bruce Mowbray: as Eliza mentioned...
Bruce Mowbray: and about how, perhaps, there really is no such color as "white....."

If it got really quiet...

Zen Arado: if it got really quiet you would hear your body sounds
Zen Arado: heart beating blood pumping, digestion
Agatha Macbeth: Ick
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, your heart and nervous system, at the most quiet -- like a sensory deprivation chamber....
Zon Kwan: vibrations
Eliza Madrigal: hard to imagine that kind of quiet
Zen Arado: download a decibel meter on your smartphone and try it
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe that's why most people have music on
Zen Arado: only in an anechoic chamber I think
Eliza Madrigal: or to cope with other involuntary sounds
Agatha Macbeth: Or the TV

Bruce Mowbray: Much of the "SL Experience" for me, is about access.
Zen Arado: you notice if you do soundscape meditation
Eliza Madrigal: more options, Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: Well, yes, more options...
Bruce Mowbray: more possibilities for experience and connection.
Bruce Mowbray: things that I simply could not do in RL.
 

Qt Core: trying to stay in a truly silent place: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandst...place-on-earth

Ironically, far from being peaceful, most people find its perfect quiet upsetting. Being deprived of the usual reassuring ambient sounds can induce fear – it explains why sensory deprivation is a form of torture. Astronauts do part of their training in anechoic chambers at Nasa, so they can learn to cope with the silence of space. The presence of sound means things are working; it's business as usual – when sound is absent, that signals malfunction. On 9/11, despite being out of mobile phone reception, a huge number of hikers abandoned their walks. They hadn't heard about the terrorist attacks; they were just spooked by the lack of aeroplane noise and sensed something was wrong.

 

Bruce Mowbray: things that cause me to look at RL as somehow inferior to SL,
Bruce Mowbray: or to the internet, generally.
Zon Kwan: smiles
Zon Kwan: web is new way to connect
Bruce Mowbray: indeed, it is.
Bruce Mowbray: Today I was part of three simultaneous events: the final world-wide gathering of the Modern Poetry course through the University of Pennsylvania and Coursera ,
Eliza Madrigal: streamlined networks...bridges
Bruce Mowbray: the live launch of the Maven rocket to Mars in Florida, and a great discussion of how "power" happens in social networks - through FutureLearn at the University of Southampton, England.
Zen Arado: ty QT interesting
Bruce Mowbray: Simultaneously!
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: yes we're going to Mars again! :)      (one of the reasons is to study the atmosphere and ask, how did a planet that was once warm and had water, become what is has?)
Zen Arado: ha I am doing that Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I'm thinking about networks of access, now....

Eliza Madrigal: Okay so we're about to pause, and I'd like to take 5 minutes... but maybe we can read Qt's article too :) So I'll give it 6
Bruce Mowbray: yes, let's take 5 this time....

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: or 6.
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: ((ding))
Agatha Macbeth: Dong
Eliza Madrigal: :) thank you

Eliza Madrigal: great article, Qt, and timely to what Zen was saying
Eliza Madrigal: I'd love to hear someone talk about what time might seem like in such a chamber
Agatha Macbeth: Are we agreed it exists then? :p
Eliza Madrigal: have astronauts written about it I wonder? how their lives were changed by getting 'out of the world' entirely
Eliza Madrigal: :) Aggers
Agatha Macbeth: From what I recall I think it had a big effect on them

Eliza Madrigal: I have been deep in a cave before, where they turned off all lanterns for a minute.. that felt like 5... such deep deep dark...made me realize I'd never been in the dark before
Zen Arado: it would be a good exercise to just notice the cacophony of noise in places we visit like a supermarket

"This is ground control to Major Tom..."

Bruce Mowbray: Speaking of "noise," I heard something during yesterday's violent storms that I'd never heard before: The same line of storms that caused horrific damage in the Midwest aame through the farm where I live at about 70 miles per hour -- and I heard a Doppler Effect --- a higher pitch as it approached -- and lower pitched roar as it moved on.
Agatha Macbeth: Wow
Eliza Madrigal: OOoh Bruce, what intense storms, yes -- glad you are safe!
Qt Core: !
Bruce Mowbray: It sort of made me wonder whether that had been there with all such storms - before,
Bruce Mowbray: but that I'd just never heard it.
Bruce Mowbray: TY, I am quite safe, thanks.
Agatha Macbeth: Yay
Zen Arado: frightening

Zon Kwan: waves
Agatha Macbeth: Hope Blub wasn't scared
Eliza Madrigal: bye Zon :) thanks for your thoughts
Zen Arado: bye Zon
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Zon
Qt Core: Bye Zon
Bruce Mowbray: I find the word "noise" to be judgmental and prejudicial....
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Zon!
Zen Arado: 'noise' is unwanted sound
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: when I studied it one time
Zen Arado: a form of environmental pollution
Eliza Madrigal: noise is to sound, as weed is to garden?
Zen Arado: traffic, airplane noise etc
Eliza Madrigal: "noise pollution"
Agatha Macbeth: A sound growing in the wrong place
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Qt Core: i always found (especially when i had to study) that i need a well known source of noise, let say a radio on a music station, to not be distracted by random noise like car in the street. after a while the known noise become silence
Bruce Mowbray: What if we heard those airplane and traffic noises (so-called noises) as the sounds of networks functioning....
Zen Arado: I used to play white noise from an out of tune readio when my dog was scared by fireworks night
Qt Core: become silence as in being recognized it could be ignored
Eliza Madrigal: there have been a few studies recently, that do confirm that a low level of network type noise is preferable for many types of work than silence, although silence is generally better for things like editing
Agatha Macbeth: Aww

Zen Arado: that's very Zen Bruce
Zen Arado: being able to accept noise
Bruce Mowbray: I think this was John Cage's major point --
Eliza Madrigal: I often go to a cafe when I need to 'finish' things
Zen Arado: like a noisy neighbour playing loud music in the middle of the night
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Vorder
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Vorder, ltns :)
Bruce Mowbray: and Cage was a student of D.T. Suzuki -- especially on non-judgmental listening.
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Vorder!
Zen Arado: Hi Vorder
Eliza Madrigal: the sounds when living in an apartment are very different from the house... like the neighbor upstairs practicing piano and guitar

--BELL--

Zen Arado: yes
Eliza Madrigal: My daughter sometimes gets her guitar out to converse

Eliza Madrigal: (5 minutes)

Bruce Mowbray: “If you develop an ear for sounds that are musical it is like developing an ego. You begin to refuse sounds that are not musical and that way cut yourself off from a good deal of experience.” ― John Cage

Bruce Mowbray: “Every something is an echo of nothing” ― John Cage

Eliza Madrigal: mmmm
Bruce Mowbray: mmmm.
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Mmm
Eliza Madrigal: Ohhh really like the second quote ^^
Bruce Mowbray: He's got some great one-liners, for sure.

Bruce Mowbray: “The first question I ask myself when something doesn't seem to be beautiful is why do I feel it's not beautiful? And very shortly you discover there is no reason.” ― John Cage

Zen Arado: yes
Agatha Macbeth: Eye of the beholder and all that
Zen Arado: all just conditioning
Zen Arado: Emperor's new clothes

Bruce Mowbray: So, what is this "noise" thing, anyway?

Eliza Madrigal: in a little browse I found a book description from an Apollo astronaut, although I'm not sure this is the kind of book I'd read: In February 1971, as Apollo 14 astroanaut Edgar Mitchell hurtled Earthward through space, he was engulfed by a profound sense of universal connectedness. He intuitively sensed that his presence and that of the planet in the window were all part of a deliberate, universal process and that the glittering cosmos itself was in some way conscious. The experience was so overwhelming, Mitchell knew his life would never be the same.
Agatha Macbeth: There you go
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, he spent the rest of his life exploring para-normal activity.
Bruce Mowbray: An amazing paradigm shift.
Bruce Mowbray: I admire that flexibility, very much.
Agatha Macbeth: Bye vorder
Qt Core: then his brain melted out of his ears ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: Bye Vorder!
Eliza Madrigal: hm, bye Vorder

Eliza Madrigal: I admire that too... when someone is able to shift
Eliza Madrigal: to revisit what they've believed
Zen Arado: if you meditate long enough you have those experiences too
Eliza Madrigal: though, can't go into politics then :)
Eliza Madrigal: I was thinking about my gecko as you talk about the beauty of noise :)
Agatha Macbeth: Did he follow you?
Eliza Madrigal: alas... no geckos here that I've heard
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Agatha Macbeth: I'm sure he'll write
Eliza Madrigal: but the gecko was a profound lesson... learning to make the tiny shift
Zen Arado: geckos not allowed in apartments

Bruce Mowbray: “Whether I make them or not, there are always sounds to be heard and all of them are excellent.” ― John Cage

Bruce Mowbray: “I am trying to be unfamiliar with what I'm doing.” ― John Cage

Zen Arado: yes I refuse to be conditioned into what music I like
Zen Arado: I listen to everything
Zen Arado: and like most of it
Eliza Madrigal: :) I suppose I'm similar... like music across many boundaries
Zen Arado: people deny themselves so much pleasure with their narrow tastes

Bruce Mowbray: “Everything we do is music." (Classical Composer)(From: 4'33")” ― John Cage

Bruce Mowbray: “It is not irritating to be where one is. It is only irritating to think one would like to be somewhere else.” ― John Cage

Eliza Madrigal: :))
Zen Arado: he yes Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Well, then, I'm doing a paradigm shift on the "noise" thing.
Zen Arado: know that one well
Bruce Mowbray: If a storm's Doppler Effect can seem as music....
Bruce Mowbray: even though it make great mischief for others....
Bruce Mowbray: I shall hear it as music.
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Agatha Macbeth: Mu-sic
Zen Arado: I am learning to be content with not going anywhere
Bruce Mowbray: ahhh!
Bruce Mowbray: MU!
Agatha Macbeth: Yah
Eliza Madrigal smiles

Bruce Mowbray: “It is not irritating to be where one is. It is only irritating to think one would like to be somewhere else.” ― John Cage

Zen Arado: remember reading about a Zen master...a prison cell would be a place of great inner learning for him..

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: (5)

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Korel :)
Korel Laloix: Osiyo

Eliza Madrigal: ((ding))

Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Kori!
Agatha Macbeth: Hello K
Qt Core: Hi Korel
Korel Laloix: What did I miss?
Zen Arado: Hi Kori
Eliza Madrigal grins
Bruce Mowbray: HA!
Eliza Madrigal: the session :)
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Korel Laloix: That seems to be my style.
Agatha Macbeth: Hmm
Korel Laloix: But I make it look sooooo good though.. smiles
 

Eliza Madrigal: here is another good astronaut article: http://www.theguardian.com/science/2...pace-interview

When Chris Hadfield was a child, his teacher took the class to a deserted parking lot, gave them each a piece of string and told them to mark off a square foot of ground and spend the hour studying it. "It was just wild weeds and stuff. I don't remember a lot of grade six, but I remember that clearly; that if you take the time to notice, there's a fascinating amount of things happening in one square foot of earth. It taught us appreciation and a little bit of ecology; but it was a real perspective-building thing for me. To recognise the world of wonder that exists in this little square of normal nature. And that same idea carries through to everything. If you notice the minutiae around you, I don't know how you could ever be bored."

Hadfield is talking about the adjustments he had to make after returning to Earth from the space station. Earlier generations of astronauts, lacking anyone to ask or help from Nasa, had a lot of psychological problems. "The Apollo guys, some of them hadn't had time to think about what this was going to be like. And they didn't have anyone to talk to about it. So a couple of them came back fundamentally changed, religiously. Or alcoholic. Because they couldn't handle the change in perspective: to be able to cover up the world with their thumb; to see themselves that way."

It was easier for Hadfield and his crew. Since the 1960s, the space agency has developed a rigorous therapeutic framework for returning astronauts."We had people to talk to and examples to follow. I don't know of any recent astronauts who've had an epiphany based on space travel."

Still, pragmatism has its limitations, and the question of what happens existentially when one is able to look down on the Earth is one Hadfield has thought a lot about. "I've had a chance to see something that is way outside everybody else's frame of reference and gives a perspective that is very different from everyone else's. So how do you then rationalise that with the rest of your life?"

He is quiet for a few moments. "I just have to make it part of who I am and be happy with it and accept it and not let it get in the way. And for me it becomes very enriching. You've probably eaten something really delicious at some point in your life. The best thing you've ever had. Does that mean all food from then on is terrible? Because you had ambrosia 14 years ago? Probably not. You'll say, this food is really good, and I had ambrosia 14 years ago. I'm a lucky guy. That's how I deal with the madness, I think."

Zen Arado: full of sound and fury
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: well not fury I guess
Eliza Madrigal: "These qualities have served to head off a syndrome long recognised by Nasa as problematic for returning astronauts: the crashing anticlimax and existential difficulties of life after space travel."
Agatha Macbeth: Sounds like coming back from a retreat
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm... Sounds a bit like a meditation retreat to moi.
Agatha Macbeth: Snap
Zen Arado: a bit like people who have blissful meditation experiences
Bruce Mowbray: snap!
Eliza Madrigal: snap snap! yes
Eliza Madrigal: that's what I was thinking

Zen Arado: 'after the ectasy the laundry'
Eliza Madrigal: mhm :)
Bruce Mowbray: "Do not kill the villagers."
Eliza Madrigal: so is integration ecstatic laundry?
Bruce Mowbray: (on your way down the mountain....)

Agatha Macbeth: Maybe ask an astronaut that one
Zen Arado: it's recognizing that life isn't always pleasant
Zen Arado: and no way it can be
Bruce Mowbray: Maybe it's also learning that absolutely NOTHING is boring.
Eliza Madrigal: I've known many people who, after spiritual experiences or beginning to meditate, have a very difficult time dealing with the so-called normal world again
Eliza Madrigal: I've experienced it myself actually
Agatha Macbeth: Ah the dreaded normal world

Korel Laloix: I don't know.. like always it seems... I feel the oposite
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Eliza. That's why the advice to persons leaving a meditation retreat: "Do not kill the villagers on your way down the mountain."
Eliza Madrigal: maybe that's why PaB has always struck a profound note for me... that it is simple, integratory, etc

Korel Laloix: I find when I have a deep spiritual moment... the day to day things have a brighter feel.. more clarity.. more depth.

Zen Arado: actually book I am reading the author explaons that after the experience of the knowledge of arising and passing which is blissful it is followed by dark experiences like the 'dark night of the soul'

(sounds a bit like Adam and Eve...)

Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes, but what if others refuse to acknowledge your experience, Kori?
Bruce Mowbray: What then?
Eliza Madrigal: do you ever feel discouraged not being able to connect or convey your experience Kori?
Eliza Madrigal: snap-ish :)
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully (for a change).

Korel Laloix: Sometime I feel frustrated by language.. or my own shortcomings.. to get my thoughts accross
Zen Arado: don't we all?
Korel Laloix: But I can't force my thoughts on others.. it is up to me to make them accessable to others.
Eliza Madrigal: helpful attitude... I suppose I feel similar much of the time
Eliza Madrigal: but then sometimes, hm :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hm
Eliza Madrigal: My mom is not speaking to me right now
Agatha Macbeth: No, we are :p
Eliza Madrigal: hehhhee
Bruce Mowbray: oh dear Eliza!
Korel Laloix: Sharing my Faith is sometimes very difficult in some of my social communities... but that is expected.. and up to me to find ways to communicate.
Eliza Madrigal: yeah, that's part of the problem for her :)

Korel Laloix: I have not spoken to my mom directly in like 18 months.. really love it.. sad to say.
Eliza Madrigal: when you look for ways to connect and share I guess it also helps integrate others into your own experince Kori?
Korel Laloix: Probably.. I mean there are many people that I really have little in common with.

--BELL--

Korel Laloix: So trying to push my thoughts and pull there is more than a language issue.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Looks like QT went into deep meditation...
Korel Laloix: And even in some ways, I just have a very different context on the same thoughts.
Bruce Mowbray ponders "More than a language issue...."
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Zen Arado: best way to share your faith is by example

Eliza Madrigal: I don't like it.. it preoccupies a part of me. The last thing she said was "Don't burn your bridges..." (which I had no intention of) But this conversation makes me wonder about when it seems one has to choose which bridges they keep repairing
Agatha Macbeth: Oops Brucie poofed
Eliza Madrigal: eep... Bruce was zapped fast
Agatha Macbeth: Not a storm I hope

Korel Laloix: My views on racism, imigaration, equality, faith, etc are just different to a lot of people.
Zen Arado: I stopped talking to a guy who kept trying to bully me into Christiantiy
Agatha Macbeth: Christians can get that way :p
Korel Laloix: Probably a good idea really.
Eliza Madrigal: there seems a difference between widening the space to include hearing other views, and needing to push out someone else's experience and replace it with one's own
Korel Laloix: Atheists as well... bullying is an equal opportunity vice

Eliza Madrigal: (brb, one moment)
Agatha Macbeth: WB Brucie
Agatha Macbeth: And Blub
Bruce Mowbray: ty.
Zen Arado: yeh but not so many atheists trying to convert people:)
Bruce Mowbray: ty.
Agatha Macbeth: Hm, convert them to what? ;)
Zen Arado: atheism
Zen Arado: Richard Dawkins maybe
Korel Laloix: Well.. really though, some people are toxic... and I have no need to absorb their thoughts after I make my decision.
Zen Arado: but not so many
Agatha Macbeth: Give me something to not believe in
Zen Arado: I know
Korel Laloix: I admit a very negative view of atheists... but I do find that Atheists are the most religions people I know.
Zen Arado: actually they are more using science as a fundamentalist religion
Korel Laloix: And I mean that in the worst possible sense of the word.
Agatha Macbeth: Religiously unreligious?
Zen Arado: yes Kori
Bruce Mowbray: “In the dark, all cats are black.”
Agatha Macbeth: ^.^
Korel Laloix: You can tell a black cat in the dark though.. the fur feels a certain way.
Eliza Madrigal: back, apologies :) my daughter's friends' parents couldn't get into the complex because the gate was closed early
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Korel Laloix: No other cats feel like that.
Agatha Macbeth: Oh dear
Korel Laloix: So in now?
Agatha Macbeth: Sleeping outdoors then?
Eliza Madrigal: :) we managed

Eliza Madrigal: I find it difficult to describe my sense of faith because it seems so different from others
Korel Laloix: Faith is a difficult thing to convey in any langauge.
Korel Laloix: So personal.
Eliza Madrigal: but in a sense I think that is a sign of authentic exploration
Korel Laloix: So many layers

Zen Arado: believing something that isn't true?
Zen Arado: :)

Bruce Mowbray: My "faith" is in what is.
Eliza Madrigal: I don't know what I think of the word 'believe'... I've heard that the word was more akin to love, in its beginning
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Eliza -- BE-LIVEing.
Zen Arado: 'faith' is what I found weird and eventually left Christianity
Korel Laloix: And love is a rather useless work in English at least.

Bruce Mowbray: Ari!
Zen Arado: Hi Ari
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome!
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Ari dear
Arisia Vita: greetings my friends

Eliza Madrigal: the word love has been dumbed down, nods... but I like that Bruce - it feels like entanglement, union
Zen Arado: to me it is trying to find solid ground where none exists
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ari :)
Korel Laloix: Funny enough.. faith is what I also found weird, and that is one of the reasons I left Atheism.. smiles

Qt Core: Hi Ari
Korel Laloix: heya
Zen Arado: but we want it to exist
Zen Arado: anyway I better go
Eliza Madrigal: "faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen." :)
Eliza Madrigal: okay Zen, good to see you
Zen Arado: byee
Korel Laloix: Take care... ciao
Agatha Macbeth: Take care Zenny
Arisia Vita: bye Zen
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm. Isn't what IS enough?
Qt Core: time to go for me too, bye all
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, Zen-ji!
Korel Laloix: Ciao all
Agatha Macbeth: Ciao QT
Eliza Madrigal: is what IS different for everyone?
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, Qt!

Bruce Mowbray: Surely our concepts and perceptions of that are different, Eliza.
Bruce Mowbray: and that's one reason I feel that networks are so vital.
Bruce Mowbray: making those connectrions...
Bruce Mowbray: among differing perceptions and ISnesses.

Eliza Madrigal: delicate balances but I agree
Eliza Madrigal: we are near to communicating with other planetary life forms and haven't even worked out how to hold disagreements in friendly ways among ourselves :)
Eliza Madrigal: although it is said that we're becoming less physically violent...not sure about that

Korel Laloix: One of the things that brought me to Christianity was how I felt when I visited a church for the first time.

Bruce Mowbray: Maybe those extraterrestrials can help us to learn.
Bruce Mowbray: (how to communicate, I mean.)
Arisia Vita: how did you feel?
Agatha Macbeth: Just wait til the daleks show up
Eliza Madrigal: :)) Agatha

Eliza Madrigal: please say more, Kori?
Bruce Mowbray: how you felt, Kori? Can you say more, please?
Korel Laloix: Or maybe the extraterrestrials will be worse than us.
Agatha Macbeth: Oh my is that possible?

Korel Laloix: Well. when I was searching, I went to different houses of faith.. to create a word.

--BELL--
Korel Laloix: The people at the mosque looked at me like fresh meat, the bhudists ignored me and the old guy that came in at the same time, but was all over the young asian girl, just things like that.
Agatha Macbeth smiles
Korel Laloix: When I walked into the church... it was like instant acceptance.
Korel Laloix: I know it is not like that all places.
Bruce Mowbray: So, you searched and searched until Something (Someone?) found you....?
Arisia Vita: I hope you feel that way here at PaB
Eliza Madrigal nods... but I also relate. I do think many churches are wonderful at hospitality
Korel Laloix: Sort of.. I kept searching after I found that church for a bit.. but it just reinforced things.
Korel Laloix: It took me a while to warm up to PaB I have to admit.
Eliza Madrigal: :) I found PaB perplexing at first

Bruce Mowbray: But, ultimately, it was a sense of your being accepted... not of your accepting something else?
Bruce Mowbray: That's how I feel "admission" to the cosmos...

Korel Laloix: Both... when you posted my poem.. that is when I felt accepted Bruce..but i also had to realize that my thoughts needed filters here sometimes.
Bruce Mowbray: it accepts me, not I accepting it, necessarily.
Bruce Mowbray: Oh wow.
Bruce Mowbray: THANKS for that one, Kori.
Eliza Madrigal: Goodness, didn't know that Kori
Bruce Mowbray: and I thank you again!
Bruce Mowbray: I also felt your acceptance.... through that poem, in a strange and unexplainable way.
Korel Laloix smiles
Bruce Mowbray: also smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: my grandfather tells me that the "experience of mercy" is something he responds to in Christianity
Eliza Madrigal: that it is most explicit
Korel Laloix: I like those words.
Bruce Mowbray ponders the experience of mercy, and its connections to forgiving... and compassion.....
Korel Laloix: My ex really responded to that feeling from the new RC Pope.
Eliza Madrigal: me too!
Eliza Madrigal: sorry to hear 'ex' though, Kori
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps the world is breathing some fresh air through this new Pope. I surely hope that is so, and feel that it is.
Korel Laloix: It's done.. thanks.

Eliza Madrigal: he is reminding the church of how I perceived it when a child ...
Eliza Madrigal: as being about charity
Bruce Mowbray: ahhhh!
Bruce Mowbray: "Unless you become as a child...."

Eliza Madrigal: I wasn't Catholic, but wanted to be a nun :)
Korel Laloix: For all its faults, I do respect the RCs.
Bruce Mowbray: I wasn't Catholic but wanted to be a monk.
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Bruce Mowbray: Even went to monasteries several times.
Korel Laloix: I have been to three vocational events... looking at becoming a nun.
Korel Laloix: A very strong draw for me I have to admit.

Eliza Madrigal: then my experience with THE CHURCH was not so great as an adult
Bruce Mowbray: hmmmmm.
Eliza Madrigal: marrying into a very strongly RC family that was not always as accepting as I dreamed they'd be
Agatha Macbeth: Erk
Bruce Mowbray: My typist also married into a very devout RC family.
Bruce Mowbray: But, that is all over the dam now...
Agatha Macbeth: Dam
Bruce Mowbray: the power of letting go is profound.
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Korel Laloix: That can happen anywhere though....
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Bruce Mowbray: yes, anywhere.
Korel Laloix: The violent rejection I received from my mother when I abandoned Atheism was something to see for sure.
Eliza Madrigal: haha... some of it was funny... my mother yelling at a joint-family event "they were chopping off our heads in France!"
Agatha Macbeth: 0.0
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: talk about not letting go...
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Korel Laloix: People find excuses to marginalize others for a large number of reasons.
Agatha Macbeth: Well yeh

Bruce Mowbray: Kori, I'd suggest you see the new movie that just came out: "C.O.G."
Bruce Mowbray: It's quite good, actually.
Korel Laloix: OK. will write that down..
Bruce Mowbray: I'm sure you could relate to a lot of it.
Arisia Vita: I think your mother had it the wrong way around, attaching more importance to what you believed than to who you are...
Bruce Mowbray: based on a story by Sedaris.
Bruce Mowbray: C.O.G.
Bruce Mowbray: I have a copy of it....
Korel Laloix: Well.. she hates me anyway.. so it was just one more thing to pile up.

Bruce Mowbray: (dinner).
Bruce Mowbray: So, THANK YOU EACH AND ALL.
Bruce Mowbray: Heys, good people! I need to be a-scraping...
Arisia Vita: enjoy it Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: Night, Bruce :)
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Brucie, see you at dreams
Korel Laloix: Ciao bello
Eliza Madrigal: I need to go too...but this cushion has felt accepting today
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Certainly has
Korel Laloix: Take care
Eliza Madrigal: I enjoy talking about faith, too
Arisia Vita: be well and happy Liz
Eliza Madrigal: and bridges and open connections
Agatha Macbeth: Faith no more

Eliza Madrigal: oh, my creaky knees
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Arisia Vita: :)
Korel Laloix smiles
Arisia Vita: need oil :)
Eliza Madrigal: hehee

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: Hugs <3 thanks
Agatha Macbeth: Like the tin man
Agatha Macbeth: Byee
Korel Laloix: Ciao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uJL8er_tV0  :)