2014.07.27 07:00 - Seeing

The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.

Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
Eliza Madrigal: 's current display-name is "Eliza".
Bleu Oleander: hey Eliza :)
Bleu Oleander: Aggers !
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Bleu, Agatha :)
Agatha Macbeth: G'day ♥
Bleu Oleander: zooming in on Aggers shirt
Agatha Macbeth: ZOOM!
Bleu Oleander: ah nice!
Bleu Oleander: how are you both?
Eliza Madrigal: fantastic
Agatha Macbeth: Adams had these at the museum
Agatha Macbeth: Dunno if they're still there
Agatha Macbeth: Yes Liz you are fantastic :)
Eliza Madrigal: let me freshen my tea.... seem to be drinking the same glass from Monday
Bleu Oleander: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Ick
Eliza Madrigal: cup, I mean of course... strangely still hot and fresh
Agatha Macbeth: You look kinda oriental today Bleu?
Eliza Madrigal: doing rather well, looking forward to an early dinner at a favorite restaurant, visit from my younger daughter
Bleu Oleander: really?
Eliza Madrigal zooms Bleu too
Agatha Macbeth: Yay
Agatha Macbeth: Same shape?
Bleu Oleander: new makeup :)
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Bleu Oleander: same shape
Eliza Madrigal: very pretty!
Agatha Macbeth: That explains it
Agatha Macbeth: Nice :)
Bleu Oleander: thanks!
Agatha Macbeth: How's she doing Liz?
Eliza Madrigal: she said last night that she is "broke but happy" :)
Agatha Macbeth: Works! :p
Bleu Oleander: same here lol
Agatha Macbeth: I'd rather be happy than rich any day
Eliza Madrigal: It is one thing to know intellectually, that it takes a lot to live , but another to run out of eye liner and realize that $10 is a lot to pay for such a thing :)
Agatha Macbeth: Oh true
Bleu Oleander: indeed
Agatha Macbeth: Bill Gates just never has these problems :p
Eliza Madrigal: we are all somehow doing more, or different, with less these days
Bleu Oleander: what doesn't use eye liner?
Agatha Macbeth: Well, I presume not
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Eliza Madrigal: Bill Gates? lolll...
Agatha Macbeth: But who knows? ;-)
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe he's in SL and we never knew
Bleu Oleander: could be
Agatha Macbeth: Has the kitty found her buss pass yet Liz?
Agatha Macbeth: bus*
Eliza Madrigal: she's not allowed one, because the older cat is the bus driver
Agatha Macbeth: Ahhh
Eliza Madrigal: (long story) :))
Agatha Macbeth: Knew there must be a reason
Eliza Madrigal: Kitty is going home today though... have been sitting for weeks
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Agatha Macbeth: ^.^
Eliza Madrigal: amazing what havoc a small cat can wreak
Bleu Oleander: so image a 100 lb dog
Eliza Madrigal: hahaha.... I do!
Bleu Oleander: or 2
Agatha Macbeth: Still not as much as a dog tho :p
Agatha Macbeth: Snap
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I've promised son a dog but life is seeming so simple now... just want to keep going with that... lol
Bleu Oleander: simple is good
Agatha Macbeth: Yes, understandable
Bleu Oleander: question why we went to 2 :)
Eliza Madrigal: Well, you were good at one?
Bleu Oleander: makes sense to me ha ha!
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Agatha Macbeth grins

Bleu Oleander: so are you following our email conversation?
Agatha Macbeth: Which one?
Bleu Oleander: do people read those?
Eliza Madrigal: I am trying to... I think I may be missing something because I'm not sure of an argument point
Agatha Macbeth: Pila's?
Bleu Oleander: I don't think there is an argument point really
Eliza Madrigal: I liked Pila's input... "both, and"
Bleu Oleander: except for is the world really there maybe
Eliza Madrigal: well, one doesn't assume there is or isn't
Eliza Madrigal: just doesn't take for granted that there is (is how I understand?)
Bleu Oleander: so maybe I assume there is and others don't?
Bleu Oleander: "when you watch, what do you see?"
Bleu Oleander: how would you answer
Agatha Macbeth: 'Don't assume- you make an ass out of u and me'
Bleu Oleander: lol
Eliza Madrigal: :) Aggers English teacher
Agatha Macbeth: Hehe]
Eliza Madrigal: when I take part in these conversations I tend to take them in diff directions ...
Eliza Madrigal: like, for me, 'see' isn't a visual word
Eliza Madrigal: it is a felt sense
Agatha Macbeth: That's because you are Lizji :)
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: "see" as in understand what my senses are showing me? not only through vision?
Agatha Macbeth: An Elizan tangent
Bleu Oleander: so blind one can see with touch
Eliza Madrigal: should clarify.. I know that 'see' is most often used to describe visual...
Eliza Madrigal: right exactly
Eliza Madrigal: and 'how' I see changes based on emotions... not always just frame of mind
Bleu Oleander: I take it that way in Pema's question
Agatha Macbeth: Understand that Liz
Bleu Oleander: emotions, state of the physical body, memories, past experience all add to "seeing"
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bleu Oleander: language too
Agatha Macbeth: Stereoscopic vision
Eliza Madrigal: so where I hear you and Pema agree is, seeing all those things that make up seeing
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: and watching, as in being aware of, that
Eliza Madrigal: being awake to that
Bleu Oleander: consciously seeing
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: and there is a balance that is more like an edge, to being in suspended disbelief and belief, about whether there is anything to see
Eliza Madrigal: for me, and it is both...maybe like Pila. I feel alive, appreciative, happy... at a place where I am totally buying in and also totally not buying in.
Eliza Madrigal: so it is playful
Eliza Madrigal: mischievous
Bleu Oleander: I think we act out our lives totally buying though
Agatha Macbeth: Pila is amazing
Eliza Madrigal: I would say that's true... that it takes intention for any of us to go against our grain
Bleu Oleander: not buying in is ok for thought experiments
Bleu Oleander: we have to act as though our senses are telling us the truth about the world
Eliza Madrigal: well, there is risk involved in a practice. A thought experiment is not really a practice in the same way
Eliza Madrigal: it is, but sometimes then it goes to a place where there may be a challenge to step up in some way - totally individual for all of us
Eliza Madrigal: (purely my own feelings about this)
Bleu Oleander: no matter what we think, we act as though the world exists and we exist ... i haven't met anyone who didn't
Eliza Madrigal: I have
Bleu Oleander: really?
Eliza Madrigal: Pema is actually like that sometimes... from my pov
Bleu Oleander: well he still eats, does his job, sleeps etc.
Eliza Madrigal: yes, or that happens
Bleu Oleander: waits at a red light to cross the street
Eliza Madrigal: maybe,
Bleu Oleander: haha!
Agatha Macbeth: Hopefully!
Bleu Oleander: and that's it exactly, if we didn't we might be dead
Eliza Madrigal: :) there is this thing about spontaneity and each moment arising in a new way
Eliza Madrigal: we think our world is ordered in a certain way but entertaining the idea that maybe there are layers
Eliza Madrigal: opens up new avenues
Bleu Oleander: sure, but that's a mindset
Bleu Oleander: there is a reality
Eliza Madrigal: I know for sure, with the people you talk with, you have to be amazed and how much 'more' they seem to see in something
Bleu Oleander: we may not all understand it the same way
Eliza Madrigal nods... but to get there sometimes one has to go blank first, in a way
Agatha Macbeth: Nothing like a good mindset :p
Bleu Oleander: there are some basics :)
Eliza Madrigal: but if we are so sure the basics are what we think they are, we might not make room to ask if there might be something else more basic
Eliza Madrigal: or differently basic
Eliza Madrigal: for a long time, racial differences were seen as basic in th world
Bleu Oleander: well sure there is always room for more knowledge
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bleu Oleander: right and now women can vote
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Bleu Oleander: don't need to stay in the kitchen ha ha
Eliza Madrigal: yes, so they can enjoy being in the kitchen again if they want to :)
Bleu Oleander: actually no such thing as "race" with current understandings
Agatha Macbeth: Amazing how often one ends up in the kitchen anyway :p
Bleu Oleander: and can come to PaB :)
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: fantastic book: Skin by Nina Jablonski
Bleu Oleander: http://www.amazon.com/Skin-Natural-N...nina+jablonski
Eliza Madrigal: yes... but I think the willingness to see if there is something else rather than what has been taken as basic, is the opening. And that opening may be the edge point/crux
Eliza Madrigal clicks
Agatha Macbeth: I read that as a SL ad at first hehe
Bleu Oleander: there's always something else
Eliza Madrigal: neat book!
Bleu Oleander: but that adds to our knowledge not so much takes away
Eliza Madrigal: it is a shift to say that there may not be a world or beings in it... not necessary to say we're taking them away
Bleu Oleander: our knowlege of the world and ourselves is constantly being added to
Bleu Oleander: it makes no sense to me to say there may not be a world or us in it
Bleu Oleander: since we need to act as though there is
Eliza Madrigal: what is probably means is there may not be (likely is not) a world *in the same way* that we take for granted that there is
Bleu Oleander: that's right
Bleu Oleander: we're limited in what we can see
Bleu Oleander: even bees see flowers differently then we do
Agatha Macbeth: Bzzz
Bleu Oleander: they dance better too :)
Agatha Macbeth: Doors of perception
Eliza Madrigal: yes exactly
Eliza Madrigal: hmm... I'm seeing my daughter today, and what is fundamental is my love for her, my determination to enjoy her company... what is not fundamental is to say that she is "___ years old and likes __, ___, ___ and has __ hair and her name is ___ and that she is certainly female..."
Bleu Oleander: our perception is limited
Eliza Madrigal: and further, "my" love isn't even fundamental
Bleu Oleander: well, what do you mean by "fundamental"?
Eliza Madrigal: or the direction of love 'at' her. Something I'm calling is there, appears, arises
Eliza Madrigal: *calling love
Eliza Madrigal: Basic, necessary
Eliza Madrigal: "true"
Bleu Oleander: you're framing your experience differently
Eliza Madrigal: I'm throwing all the parts into question
Bleu Oleander: framing with words
Bleu Oleander: still acting the same
Agatha Macbeth watches the parts fly
Eliza Madrigal: but not just 'thinking' about it that way...
Eliza Madrigal: Ohhh no... definitely it alters my behavior
Bleu Oleander: really? how?
Eliza Madrigal: definitely opens space that wasn't there
Eliza Madrigal: releases the obstacle of my impositions on her somewhat, my impositions on myself
Bleu Oleander: that your daughter is female?
Eliza Madrigal: to be this or that in some particular way
Eliza Madrigal: within our time together
Eliza Madrigal: room for surprises
Bleu Oleander: I can and do do that, but I don't have to believe there isn't a real world to do that
Eliza Madrigal: right, definitely not
Bleu Oleander: ok so that's my pov
Eliza Madrigal: anything you feel imposed upon to believe can't be the point I'm sure
Bleu Oleander: we can change our relationships with others and objects without believing that they don't exist
Eliza Madrigal: okay I'm understanding you I think
Eliza Madrigal: from a practice perspective, I do feel that at times I find it expansive to release them (myself) from being just a being in the world
Eliza Madrigal: and I know the 'just' word will bother you ^^
Bleu Oleander: right, was "just" going to say that lol
Agatha Macbeth: Très juste
Eliza Madrigal: it bothers me too.. lol... but I'm not able to find a work around yet
Eliza Madrigal: because a being in the world is an astounding thing
Eliza Madrigal: not thing :P
Bleu Oleander: indeed
Bleu Oleander: and we don't fully understand that
Eliza Madrigal: This morning I read a quote, "we can read for knowledge, but we must love for love."
Agatha Macbeth: Oh my
Bleu Oleander: instead of read for love, and love for knowledge?
Agatha Macbeth: Having said that, I've fallen in love with people in books before now HA
Bleu Oleander: me too!
Eliza Madrigal: lol yes.. that's why i hesitate to quote things like that, because there is another me next to me saying "yes, but you often learn to love...learn empathy, through impartation in books..."
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: YES
Bleu Oleander: "when you watch, what do you see?" how do you answer, Like in the case of picking up a stone and feeling/sensing its reality?" (from Pema's email)
Agatha Macbeth: 'Book after book I get hooked every time the writer talks to me like a friend' - Marc Bolan
Bleu Oleander: and from Pila's "how do you sense reality?"
Agatha Macbeth: How indeed
Eliza Madrigal: :) First I catch myself going about normal life
Eliza Madrigal: and notice that
Agatha Macbeth: Well, always that
Agatha Macbeth: I don't doubt Jesus did the same :p
Eliza Madrigal: that I'm in modes, ways of being
Bleu Oleander: we don't know for sure though
Eliza Madrigal: that's opening one lid of seeing
Eliza Madrigal: and it isn't even true to say i'm doing it, but being open to it, sometimes it appears to happen
Agatha Macbeth: Always remember Pandora before lifting the lid ;)
Eliza Madrigal: so I don't think the question "what" can be answered really... in this it could only be in that moment
Eliza Madrigal: by the time I tell you it is what I think again
Eliza Madrigal: :) Agatha
Bleu Oleander: ok so take the case of a stone
Bleu Oleander: what do you see?
Eliza Madrigal: well I could tell a story of a stone but it is only a story by now
Eliza Madrigal: or we could go find stones and come back and do an experiment
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe it's the philosopher's stone? :p
Eliza Madrigal smiles and still wonders why so many publishers change titles when books come to America
Agatha Macbeth: Or Wolfram von Eschenbach's grail
Bleu Oleander: stories already add layers
Eliza Madrigal nods
Agatha Macbeth: Oh that's a legal thing I think Liz
Bleu Oleander: its what titles sell better
Eliza Madrigal: so it is hard in a way, because we're not used to doing it, and even harder to do it together
Eliza Madrigal: yeah... just aggravates me... like in the US a sorcerer is a better word that philosopher (Harry Potter)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: A lot of things are easier to do together
Eliza Madrigal: like? :)
Bleu Oleander: having know some authors and their difficulties in titles its so interesting
Agatha Macbeth: Well PaB for a start
Bleu Oleander: book covers in general, authors have almost no say in
Agatha Macbeth nods
Eliza Madrigal nods... have a friend who has changed titles for her book 5 or 6 times in the last few years
Eliza Madrigal: each time there is new feedback, and to include one is to exclude another
Agatha Macbeth: Publishing is a business, hence publishers see it solely from that perspective
Bleu Oleander: $$$
Agatha Macbeth: They need to outsell the competition
Bleu Oleander: gotta love it lol
Agatha Macbeth: Right
Eliza Madrigal nods... was interesting to see that almost all books about Africa have the same basic photo of sun and savanna
Eliza Madrigal: maybe with elephant
Agatha Macbeth: Yay good old Sun ♥
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: appeals to more
Eliza Madrigal: oops forgot guardian notice
Eliza Madrigal: but Africa is HUGE
Bleu Oleander: oops that time
Eliza Madrigal: yeah...lol
Agatha Macbeth: Just send an IM
Eliza Madrigal: people don't get group IMs to email
Eliza Madrigal: I'll send really fast then run over
Agatha Macbeth: Really?
Agatha Macbeth: Shows how much I know hehe
Bleu Oleander: well thanks for coming this morning ... interesting to continue these ideas
Bleu Oleander: can mosey on over to the hall?
Eliza Madrigal: thank YOU Bleu... appreciate the way you work at things
Agatha Macbeth: Be well Bleuji...love to doggies
Bleu Oleander: shall we ladies?
Eliza Madrigal: yes we shall :)
Bleu Oleander: :)