2015.04.28 13:00 - empathy and compassion (2)

The Guardian for this meeting was Darren Islar. The comments are by Darren Islar.

Ava and Darren are fooling around before the groupsmeeting

Darren Islar: 's current display-name is "leaping Panther".
Avaline DeCuir: 's current display-name is "Ava".

Darren Islar: hey my sweet
Avaline DeCuir: \hello my love
Avaline DeCuir: \how have you been\/'
Darren Islar: a bit more of a restful day, so that was good, and some clutter has now appeared on bookshelfs
Avaline DeCuir: hahaha // \i had a reasonable day too .. went to the shops .. did a but of study and some cleaning ... cooked some fried rice and some steamed vegies ... a bit tired though
Darren Islar: sounds like a reasonable day, maybe your tiredness is less tomorrow and a red mouse is going to make you happy
Avaline DeCuir: that would be nice .. definitely
Darren Islar: it's a date then
Avaline DeCuir: :)

Bruce Mowbray: 's current display-name is "Bruce".

Darren Islar: hey Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Darren and Ava.

ElanVitalo Resident: 's current display-name is "Elan".

Darren Islar: Ava is looking at something, will brb
ElanVitalo Resident: Hello, Ava, Darren, and Brucie.
Darren Islar: hey Elan
ElanVitalo Resident: np.
Bruce Mowbray: Take your time, please.

--BELL--

Darren Islar: that was a nice discussion on synchronicity

Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".

ElanVitalo Resident: Heya, Bleu.
Bruce Mowbray: I'm glad you enjoyed it. I thought it was good, too.
Bleu Oleander: hiya
Darren Islar: hey Bleu
Avaline DeCuir: Hey \\\\bruce and bleu
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Bleu.
Bruce Mowbray: It must be spring - I hung my hummingbird feeders this afternoon.
Bleu Oleander: :)
Darren Islar: hey Tura
Bleu Oleander: hi Tura
Tura Brezoianu: hi all
Avaline DeCuir: Hi Tura
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Tura.
ElanVitalo Resident: Hi, Tura.
Darren Islar: I don't know everybody that well yet, but you have been here before Tura, at PaB?
Tura Brezoianu: I've been here twice before
Darren Islar: ok

topic: teh difference between empathy and compassion when it comes to burning up

Darren Islar: well, somebody likes to suggest a topic?
Bruce Mowbray: I listened to an excellent talk by Stephen Bachelor last night.
Darren Islar: what was it about?
Bleu Oleander: on?
Bruce Mowbray: in which he made a distinction between empathy and compassion.
Bruce Mowbray: It really hit home with me.
Darren Islar: that's an interesting topic
Bleu Oleander listens
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Darren Islar: can you tell us something of what he said about it?
Bruce Mowbray: Sure.
Bruce Mowbray: Empathy has a tendency to burn people out,
Bruce Mowbray: compassion does not.
Bruce Mowbray: Empathy, he said, is often unregulated.
Bruce Mowbray: so, for example,
Bruce Mowbray: a person could burn out just watching TV news about Nepal,
Bruce Mowbray: or Baltimore.
Bruce Mowbray: so sad. so sad.
Bruce Mowbray: But compassion does not burn out.
Bruce Mowbray: any more than prayer burns out.
Bruce Mowbray: I wish I'd heard that talk thirty years ago!
Darren Islar: haha
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Darren Islar: but then .. what is the actual difference, what is it in empathy that burns us out? as a general question
Bruce Mowbray: Empathy is a natural emotion -- but a reactive one.
Bruce Mowbray: we hurt in empathetic response to others' pain.
Bruce Mowbray: (and also empathize with their joy, of course.)
 

Darren Islar: hey Karel
Bleu Oleander: hi Kori
Korel Laloix: Osiyo
Avaline DeCuir: Hi Karel
ElanVitalo Resident: Heya, Kori.
Darren Islar: Korel I mean :)
Korel Laloix smiles
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Kori. Good to see you again! (twice in as many days!)
Korel Laloix: I have some time for the fist time in months in seems.

Bruce Mowbray: So, compassion is - almost by definition - regulated,
Darren Islar: and the feeling of hurt is burning us up?
Avaline DeCuir: do you not feel with compassion then?
Bruce Mowbray: through its intent,
Darren Islar: good question
Bruce Mowbray: (enormous lag here today).
Darren Islar: maybe it's not the feeling of hurt but something different we feel when we are compassionate
Bruce Mowbray: Compassion has feeling behind it, of course, just as prayer does.
Avaline DeCuir: well \i disagree about not burning out from prayer
Avaline DeCuir: but that is a different topic
Bruce Mowbray: Compassion is a sort of prayer for the other person's end-to-suffering.
Bruce Mowbray: It is, of course, prompted by empathy - at first.
Bleu Oleander: a quote from his recent book, "to embrace suffering culminates in greater empathy, the capacity to feel what it is like for the others to suffer, which is the ground for unsentimental compassion and love."
Korel Laloix: I find the way compassion is considered largley in the US to be odd.
Bruce Mowbray: How is that, Kori?
Darren Islar: it's probably also an attitude, developed and always there
Korel Laloix: The way we look at it is different, the point of compassion is restoring balance... not just eleviating suffering.

--BELL--

Korel Laloix: Seems missguided here.... people want to cure pain to make themselves feel better and not actually fix the problem.
Bruce Mowbray: hmmm, yes, I think I understand you on that.
Avaline DeCuir: I think we also need to be careful about wanting to relieve other people's suffering ... firstly why do we want to do it? to make them feel better or to make us feel better?
Bleu Oleander: what do you think he means by "unsentimental compassion"?
Darren Islar: yes I agree Kori, but that is compassion without knowing what it is ... the word 'embrace' though is interesting
Korel Laloix: Seem with a lot of charities, the purpose of the charity is to make the charitable feel better, not actually working to restore.
Korel Laloix: But we sort of approach it differently, for good or bad.
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps one needs to understand where Stephen Bachelor is coming from (when he makes a distinction between empathy and compassion.)
Bruce Mowbray: He is a SECULAR Buddhist.
Bruce Mowbray: He's not into metaphysical dogma at ALL.
Korel Laloix: I guess I think empathy is a felling and and compassion is an act... but my English is still sometimes a bit off.
Darren Islar: 'unsentimental' to me sounds like reducing our first response, as well as the response we have on friends and foe's, we seem to care more about friends
Bruce Mowbray: You'ev definitely got something there, Kori.
Darren Islar: yes
Darren Islar: compassion as an act
Darren Islar: action
Avaline DeCuir: We may want ot relieve other people's suffering because of the way we see it from the outside. .. while the person actually suffering might not necessarily see it as such a bad thing ... or we may take away an important experience for them by trying to help remove their suffering
Bruce Mowbray: I have a RL friend whose mission in life it to rescue every pregnant feral cat in the county.... because she feels such empathy for them,
Bleu Oleander: how do we make that judgement?
Korel Laloix: And sometimes people need to suffer to learn.
Bruce Mowbray: enough empathy - literally - to exhaust all of her money and become homeless.
Darren Islar nods to Ava and Kori, what we seem to call suffering, might not be in the bigger picture
Bruce Mowbray: She now has 20 cats - and is begging on the internet for money to take care of them.
Avaline DeCuir: I think that is the point .. we shouldn't be making that judgement .. we should be mindful of our own actions and how they affect others but not necessarily make any judgements about others
Darren Islar: and in that bigger picture we might be all suffering
Bruce Mowbray: Well, with regard to Ava's excellent point - we can have (do) compassion WITH as well as doing compassion FOR.
Korel Laloix: But it is a matter of degree, chances are, if you are in a place stable enough to have the chance to do SL a bit, you are not suffereing compared to the rest of the planet.
Darren Islar: I disagree
ElanVitalo Resident nods, agrees.
ElanVitalo Resident listens.
Korel Laloix smiles
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bruce Mowbray also listens.
Korel Laloix: I like to make that kind of comment... grins
Avaline DeCuir: that is rather a judgement ... who is to rate suffering\/ \does one suffer more because one has no proper roof over ones head ... not enough to eat and the chance of being raped every night\/ or does one suffer more by living in a middle class western house with every convenience and a drunken father who actually does rape you every night\/#
Darren Islar: it is known that people in poor places might still have a strong spirit going on, understanding better the risks of life, while we, 'rich' people might misjudge that completely and suffer from it
Bruce Mowbray: The SL participants could be suffering just as intensely - but in different ways.
Avaline DeCuir: sorry about typos .. new keyboard .. keys are in the wrong place
ElanVitalo Resident: np, Ava.
Korel Laloix: Oh I agree, but as I said.. there are degrees.
Avaline DeCuir: that is what \i mean about making judgements ... we cannot know how any other person actually recieves suffering .. or whether they think it is bad or not
Darren Islar: I do agree that living in Syrie right now, is a very scary place to be, and I'm glad I'm not there, but as for suffering, the greatest suffering we have is the fear to die, to loose control
Bruce Mowbray: Empathy, in fact, (feeling others' pain), can be a profound source of suffering for those who feel it.
Avaline DeCuir: even fear of dying is relative ... some fear more to live another day than to die
Bruce Mowbray: Anyone into chakra work knows how painful it can be when the fourth chakra opens.
Darren Islar: true
Darren Islar: (to Ava)
Bruce Mowbray: I think this is what Steven Batchelor was trying to say - about regulated empathy, or compassion.
Darren Islar listens
Bruce Mowbray: and about what Kori said: wanting to make my own pain go away by doing something "nice" for others.
Bruce Mowbray: making myself feel better.
Darren Islar: which means compassion comes without attachement to our own feelings as well of those of others, which makes it 'unsentimental'?

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Well, "unsentimental" was not my word, but perhaps.
Avaline DeCuir: I dont know about unsentimental but certainly it comes without attachment
Darren Islar: Bleu mentioned it earlier
Bleu Oleander: a quote from his book

Bleu Oleander slips out ... take care all :)
Korel Laloix: ciao

Bruce Mowbray: Compassion, of course, is one of the Four Immeasurables. (The others being Loving-Kindness, Joy, and Equanimity.) None of these are "attachments" in their true form.

Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Wol.
ElanVitalo Resident: Hi, Wol.
Wol Euler: evening all
Avaline DeCuir: Hi Wol
ElanVitalo Resident: (discussing the difference between empathy and compassion today, Wol.)

Darren Islar: I've always seen the four immeasurable as a combination of compassion and whisdom, but mentioning it I realize just now there is a development in the four immeasurables

Wol Euler: ah, ty
Wol Euler listens.
Darren Islar: hey Wol

Darren Islar: but that's a bit of a side-note
Bruce Mowbray: Well, also called the Four Abodes.... and I don't think any of them involves burnout, as empathy can, sometimes.
Avaline DeCuir: perhaps that is because in empathy we forget to have compassion for ourselves
Darren Islar: I think you are right, the question is only, what is the difference between joy which burns us out and joy which doesn't
ElanVitalo Resident nods, agrees.
Darren Islar: good point Ava
Bruce Mowbray ponders being burned out by joy...
Korel Laloix: You can get numb to Joy.... or the threshold can go down.
Bruce Mowbray finds that hard to imagine.
Darren Islar: grins ... what about having a party with a lot of joy, but .... then the next day ...
Bruce Mowbray: I'd call that "pleasure," not joy.
Avaline DeCuir: I agree \korel
Darren Islar: nods to Kori, yes
Avaline DeCuir: if life is always joyful .. how do we know? what do we have to compare it to?
Darren Islar: ah ... I see Bruce
Avaline DeCuir: does joy then become boredom?
Bruce Mowbray: Joy, Compassion, Love, and Equanimity are like axioms in geometry - They are basic.... probably without comparisons, or maybe degrees of comparison.
Darren Islar: what is said though in Buddhism is when joy stops, joy starts, they use the same word, with different meanings of course
Bruce Mowbray: ?
Bruce Mowbray: Does that mean, "When pleasure stops, joy starts?"
Bruce Mowbray: or the reverse of that, perhaps?
Darren Islar: in your words, probably yes
Bruce Mowbray: hmmm, ponders.
Korel Laloix: I think you know my disapproval of equanimity... to me that does not belong in that list.
ElanVitalo Resident confused. Consults databases.
Darren Islar: (actually that is not joy but happiness)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I understand, Kori.
Darren Islar: actually the same as with empathy and compassion
Bruce Mowbray: To be without preferences or prejudices....
Darren Islar: yes
Avaline DeCuir: I thoought equanimity was an odd one to include too
Bruce Mowbray: Really?
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully.
Korel Laloix: To me it is a duel edged near-evil... but I am in firm disagreement with all of those with Buddhist tendencies... smiles
Bruce Mowbray: :)
ElanVitalo Resident wonders if robots can have "Buddhist tendencies."
Darren Islar: grins to Elan
Avaline DeCuir: hehehe
Korel Laloix: Programing can do a lot.
Bruce Mowbray feels he has all SORTS of tendencies - some nice and many not so nice.
Darren Islar: well, I guess that's a good reason not to talk in such terms, but to discuss the topic
Avaline DeCuir: I think that Buddhists try to put into words ideas that are not able to be given words
Bruce Mowbray: for sure.
Wol Euler: well, don't we all? ;)
Bruce Mowbray: Maybe that's one reason they are called "Immeasureable."
Avaline DeCuir: yes in a way we do Wol
Avaline DeCuir: Darren's laptop ran out of power .. he is just plugging it in .. he will be back
Bruce Mowbray: kk, np.

--BELL--

ElanVitalo Resident: wb, Darren.
Avaline DeCuir: yay you are back in 90 seconds
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Darren Islar: hehe

Darren Islar: I was trying to say we drifted a bit of our topic
Bruce Mowbray: Regarding compassion and empathy, I like the saying, "Put on your own oxygen mask first."
Darren Islar: hahaha
Avaline DeCuir: yes I agree with that Bruce
Wol Euler smiles.
Korel Laloix: I dont' understand that.. can you explain please?
Darren Islar: I need to remember that one
Bruce Mowbray: If your own neediness is great, you probably will not be able to help others overcome theirs, although i don't want to be taken too literally on that.
Bruce Mowbray: Whewn the oxygen masks pop down in an airplane,
Avaline DeCuir: we should be practicing love ... compassion .. all those things on ourselves every day so that we know how to do them properly for others
Bruce Mowbray: put your own mask on before you put one on your kid or baby.
Darren Islar: I agree Ava
Bruce Mowbray: Excellent point, Ava.
Korel Laloix: Oh sorry.. only been on a plane like four times and I dont' remember that part.... lol
Bruce Mowbray: The flight attendants are supposed to tell you that.
Bruce Mowbray: I think it's the law, actually... in America, anyway.
Avaline DeCuir: as if people arent freaking out enough about being in a plane .. they have to remind you just before it takes off that it might crash
Darren Islar: help yourself first, before helping others
Bruce Mowbray: So, compassion begins at home, right?

We start to fool around a bit, though all within the theme

Korel Laloix: They might have, but if I paid attention is another matter.
Wol Euler always pays attention, and reads the info card in the seat-back pocket too :)
Bruce Mowbray: It's also in the cardboard instruction thingies - like about where the exits are and what to do in the event of a water "l;anding."
Darren Islar: taking risks might end up in actually flying :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that's the one, Wol.
Wol Euler smiles.
ElanVitalo Resident was never allowed on an airplane. Too much metal and electronic equipment.
Wol Euler: awwwww
Darren Islar: grins
Avaline DeCuir: hehe
ElanVitalo Resident: I appreciate your empathy, Woly.
Bruce Mowbray: :)
ElanVitalo Resident: better as Woly.
ElanVitalo Resident: ask*
Bruce Mowbray: awww feels like neither, actually.
Korel Laloix: The first time I was on a plane I was in my early 20s and the stewardess asked me where my parents were.... grrrrrrr... but it was funny looking back.
Wol Euler: heheheh
Bruce Mowbray: wow.

Back to the topic, looking deeper into attacg\hment

Darren Islar: to top of our topic ... if the conclusion that attachment is what si wearing us out in being empathatic ... then how does attachment work
Darren Islar: but that might be for a next time
Bruce Mowbray: Good suggestion, Darren.
Darren Islar: (sorry for the typo's)
Avaline DeCuir: I think that by attachment I mean my own attachment to how it makes me feel
Darren Islar: interesting is that attachment includes feelings, does compassion as well?
Bruce Mowbray: For me, attachment means wanting something not to change -- a sort of clinging onto the context, perhaps.
Wol Euler nods.
Darren Islar: or is there a difference in feeling
Darren Islar: yes to both Ava as Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Oh, compassion definitely involves feeling - (perhaps everything does, actually)...
Avaline DeCuir: to live is to feel
Bruce Mowbray: For sure, Ava.
Bruce Mowbray: (I hope!)
Darren Islar: I agree
Darren Islar: so, what's the difference?
Bruce Mowbray: between attachment and compassion?
Korel Laloix: What if you do an act that in effect is compassionate, but you do it for purely practical reasons?
Darren Islar: between the feelings which comes with empathy and the ones coming with compassion
Wol Euler: then you can be pleased that your instincts are compassionate :)
ElanVitalo Resident: What "wrong" with being practical.

--BELL--

Darren Islar: bye Bruce
Korel Laloix: Ciao
Korel Laloix: lol
ElanVitalo Resident thinks Brucie needs to be scraping up supper. He didn't mean to leave in a huff.
Darren Islar: it's okay :)
ElanVitalo Resident feels compassion for Brucie's predicament.
Korel Laloix: I am glad the PaB Bell keeps track down to 7 decimal points. I need that sort of precision.
ElanVitalo Resident: (namely, hunger).
Avaline DeCuir: lol
Avaline DeCuir: well thank you all for an interesting discussion
Darren Islar: yes, maybe better to continue another time
ElanVitalo Resident: Yes, thank you all!
Wol Euler: I shall have to move on as well
Avaline DeCuir: I wish you all a good week
Wol Euler: goodnight all, thank you
Korel Laloix: Ciao
Darren Islar: thank you all
Korel Laloix: Take care.