2015.10.19 07:00 - The Question of Emotions

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal, filling in for Eden, who is in France currently. Bleu and I engaged in a pleasant and interesting talk about the role of emotions in world views and decision making, continuing an ongoing discussion in the group, about effective altruism. And other things.

Eliza Madrigal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTnvn_dor-g

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Morning Bleu :)
Eliza Madrigal: How is the day so far?
Bleu Oleander: very busy!
Eliza Madrigal: oh?
Eliza Madrigal has been playing with windlights (this one paris2) and poses, listening to francois hardy ^.^
Bleu Oleander: lots of things happening all at once ... typical monday!
Bleu Oleander: ah nice
Eliza Madrigal: sounds great - nice to start with week in a flurry?

Bleu Oleander: part of it is dealing with my older dog
Bleu Oleander: challenging
Eliza Madrigal: does he sleep ok?
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: thank goodness for that
Bleu Oleander: but can't move on his own
Eliza Madrigal: :(
Eliza Madrigal: he is really at the edges, huh?
Bleu Oleander: so a hard time, yes
Eliza Madrigal: so sorry, must be very hard
Bleu Oleander: hard when for people or pets ... focuses on how precious life is and how short
Eliza Madrigal nods thoughtfully
Eliza Madrigal: must live as much as possible while alive :)
Bleu Oleander: exactly

Bleu Oleander: dogs are interesting for what they teach us
Bleu Oleander: their time is on such a different scale
Bleu Oleander: can see beginings and endings

Eliza Madrigal: they are in the moment for sure
Eliza Madrigal: always the same "wow you're here" when arriving back from somewhere
Eliza Madrigal: easily forgetting the distresses of where are you (for 5 minutes, lol)
Bleu Oleander: can only keep so much in the theatre at once :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)) I'd like to be that easily forgiving
Eliza Madrigal: One thing I've been enjoying is walks with the pup... nice to have the company while at the same time not needing to keep up conversation
Bleu Oleander: yes!
Bleu Oleander: a wonderful way to see the world a little differently
Eliza Madrigal: I swear I've noticed so many more types of trees in the neighborhood since he's been here
Bleu Oleander: yes!!

Eliza Madrigal: strange though.... wonder why attention so differently directed
Bleu Oleander: we watch what they watch in a way
Bleu Oleander: a dog's perspective from our perspective :)

--BELL--


Bleu Oleander: we have a salon on dog psychology coming up in a few weeks ... a researcher at ASU
Eliza Madrigal: that should be interesting
Eliza Madrigal: does much of your group have dogs?
Bleu Oleander: yes quite a few
Bleu Oleander: he's a good speaker we had him a few years ago

Peter Singer...

Bleu Oleander: btw, we met Peter Singer last weekend at an ASU event interesting conversation
Bleu Oleander: effective altruism
Eliza Madrigal: oooh, I saw the promo for a livestream of that, but couldn't watch at the time
Bleu Oleander: yes they live streamed it
Bleu Oleander: might have seen us in the audience ha ha!
Eliza Madrigal: :)) must be fun, also to be with someone also as interested as you are
Eliza Madrigal: did you have further insights about effective altruism? ready to stop donating to museums? ;-)
Bleu Oleander: we went to the dinner before the event ... interesting to meet some of these people for one-on-one conversation!
Eliza Madrigal: must be
Bleu Oleander: well its complicated

Bleu Oleander: there are interesting aspects of it to discuss
Bleu Oleander: for example the role of emotions in "rational" thought
Eliza Madrigal: very interesting
Eliza Madrigal listens
Bleu Oleander: seems emotions can't really be separated from thought entirely
Bleu Oleander: so much happening under the hood ... hard to say how we are making decisions
Eliza Madrigal: that makes sense to me instinctively
 

Bleu Oleander: its the trolley problem
Bleu Oleander: rationally it makes sense to kill one to save 5
Bleu Oleander: but if we have to push the one ourselves, we can't do it
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Bleu Oleander: but effective altruism asks us to

Eliza Madrigal: my son and I argue about this all the time...
Bleu Oleander: what does he say?
Eliza Madrigal: to me, it is a worrisome world if people are entirely rational
Eliza Madrigal: clinical about such decisions
Eliza Madrigal: he leans the other way
Eliza Madrigal: yet there is always someone who gets to pull the trigger
Eliza Madrigal: and that isn't a rationally made choice
Eliza Madrigal: it falls upon whom it falls upon
Eliza Madrigal: and in our world, it often falls upon a privileged sect

Bleu Oleander: I think its a myth to think one can make a totally rational decision
Eliza Madrigal: maybe climate change decisions are our current trolley
Eliza Madrigal: yes agree
Eliza Madrigal: rationality is based on 'something'
Bleu Oleander: yes for sure ... both emotional and rational aspects
Bleu Oleander: does it work in the world? not always an easy question to answer

Eliza Madrigal: did you see Freeman Dyson is speaking out about climate change again...wanting to make a distinction between pollution as something humans have something to do with, and climate change as not...
Eliza Madrigal: emotionally, some have vested interest in one view or another
Bleu Oleander: like two separate things happening at the same time?
Eliza Madrigal: finances and emotions are quite tied
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: right...that is somewhat his argument
Bleu Oleander: well I think the evidence is pretty compelling that human pollution is adding to climate change
Eliza Madrigal: yes me too
Eliza Madrigal: but it is also a visceral emotional belief...

Bleu Oleander: so an affective altuist would say look at the data
Bleu Oleander: but hard to keep the emotions at bay
Eliza Madrigal nods

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: and there are things that in the future we'll have data about that we don't now
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: strange thought actually.... everything rational....
Eliza Madrigal: there goes marriage hehe
Bleu Oleander: I don't think that's possible
Bleu Oleander: so not to worry
Eliza Madrigal grins
Bleu Oleander: emotions are here for the long term I think

Eliza Madrigal: I've been more interested in emotions the last few years
Bleu Oleander: yes me too
Eliza Madrigal: in being more thoughtful about them.. noticing connections with body and decisions... finding space there
Eliza Madrigal: so in a way it is sort of a proportion question
Bleu Oleander: we have met Joseph LeDoux a couple of times on emotions
Bleu Oleander: the thing is that we aren't aware of the emotions operating under the hood
Bleu Oleander: so we can't know
Bleu Oleander: we think we can control our emotions, but only the ones we become conscious of
Eliza Madrigal: it seems possible to know more and more but not sure can ever get to a bottom

Bleu Oleander: actually it seems the more we know the more we know that more is happening non-consciously
Eliza Madrigal: if we could control emotions we might cap creativity?
Bleu Oleander: to control you have to know first
Eliza Madrigal: yes, not sure it would be beneficial...
Eliza Madrigal: to control, but maybe to see
Eliza Madrigal: seems healthy to have some collaboration
Bleu Oleander: they're doing some interesting experiments to show emotions running beneath consciousness
Eliza Madrigal: the way a farmer knows about seeds

Eliza Madrigal: ooh, how would they show that?
Bleu Oleander: like showing sublimital photos and seeing how it affects your decisions
Bleu Oleander: really scary the results
Bleu Oleander: so you don't see the photo consciously but you do see it nonconsciously
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes I'm a huge believer... frightening indeed
Bleu Oleander: and it affects your thoughts
Eliza Madrigal: that's why I have crazy motivational habits... I'll try and tinker with various things
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bleu Oleander: just asking someone their phone number can prime them to accept a larger price for something
Eliza Madrigal: due to numbers?
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: huh
Bleu Oleander: or putting a photo of a pair of eyes ... people behave better :)
Eliza Madrigal thinks of the buddha eyes
Bleu Oleander: simplistic but you get the idea
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: yes

Triggered....

Eliza Madrigal: one thing happening with the younger folks, hehe, is that there is this Tumbler generation of "trigger culture." Over the weekend with my son and his friend, I must have heard a hundred "triggered" jokes...
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: everything was "Oh no don't say that you'll trigger me..."
Bleu Oleander: well that is how we are hehe
Eliza Madrigal: was sometimes funny but more than that I saw a shift.. a sort of reaction to organized efforts to be more sensitive
Eliza Madrigal: is a big breakthrough personally if one can find a trigger
Bleu Oleander: yes, but that doesn't mean we'll recognize it every time
Eliza Madrigal: or that that's the end of it
Bleu Oleander: marketers are getting pretty good at it
Eliza Madrigal: scary too
Bleu Oleander: just watch american politics lol
Eliza Madrigal: this generation is pretty scrutinizing and great at critical thinking, but then advertisers use that too
Eliza Madrigal: so subtle
Eliza Madrigal: sigh... politics...

Bleu Oleander: its not my experience that this generation is that good at critical thinking
Bleu Oleander: I'm not sure they're teaching that in schools
Eliza Madrigal: my son and his friends are incredible
Bleu Oleander: not AZ schools anyway :)
Eliza Madrigal: not from school

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: I'm sure there are some yes
Bleu Oleander: professors are telling us that's not the rule tho
Bleu Oleander: lots of young earthers and superstitious thinkers
Eliza Madrigal: they enjoy cracking codes like... disney introducing films by saying things like "your favorite ...", things like that
Eliza Madrigal shivers
Bleu Oleander: that's good marketing ... ha ha!
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Bleu Oleander: but not necessarily critical thinking
Eliza Madrigal: they've seen it from an early age though... ways I didn't until later...
Bleu Oleander: car salesmen have been doing that for a long time lol
Eliza Madrigal: but then they fall for other things...
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: or react in opposite ways that are equivalent
Eliza Madrigal: like me too :)
Bleu Oleander: and me :)

Eliza Madrigal: maybe they will learn to change faster
Eliza Madrigal: I've changed drastically several times in life
Bleu Oleander: me too
Bleu Oleander: each time I think for the better, but maybe not lol
Eliza Madrigal: right?!hah
Eliza Madrigal: hard to be sure
Bleu Oleander: exactly
Eliza Madrigal: don't see that many in older generation that can say the same, but maybe I'm not seeing it
Bleu Oleander: hard to go home for thanksgiving dinner ha ha!
Eliza Madrigal: wow yes
Eliza Madrigal: in fact... my mother just bought a handgun....
Bleu Oleander: oh wow
Bleu Oleander: don't sneak up on her :)
Eliza Madrigal: a woman whose life was affected by violence and has never been interested...
Eliza Madrigal: but feeding on political news
Eliza Madrigal: voila
Bleu Oleander: the power of persuasion
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: wanting to be part of a club, really
Bleu Oleander: yes ... needing to belong
Bleu Oleander: I must get going
Eliza Madrigal: so something kind of pure deep down maybe

WG recruitment notice in emails! All guardians welcome!

Bleu Oleander: but so nice to see you
Eliza Madrigal: Okay lovely to see you too
Bleu Oleander: I did send out a WG notice
Eliza Madrigal: ah, great, thank you
Bleu Oleander: shall I send one in world as well?
Eliza Madrigal: will see now.. maybe soon we'll have a date to meet!
Eliza Madrigal: that's helpful for some who have turned off emails
Bleu Oleander: ok will do
Eliza Madrigal: thank you!
Bleu Oleander: ok bfn
Eliza Madrigal giggles... floating
Eliza Madrigal: bfn <3
Bleu Oleander: hehe
Bleu Oleander: <3