The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

Riddle kindly met me for an impromtu session on Thursday morning. I was a bit late in arriving.

Adams Rubble: Hello Riddle :)
Adams Rubble: you came :)
Riddle Sideways: Hi, yes got here
Adams Rubble: I was reading a PaB Chronicles article and missed the hour
Adams Rubble: I was very sorry to miss your Tuesday session
Riddle Sideways: coffee maker, slow computer, updates, cats, etc. tried to slow this morning down
Riddle Sideways: that is ok
Adams Rubble: slow computers and updates are the bain of every avatar's existence

We start with a little bit of cross taking

Riddle Sideways: had a visitor
Adams Rubble: yes, i saw
Adams Rubble: I am glad someone came
Adams Rubble: the Tuesday RL stuff kind of got in the way of my momentum
Riddle Sideways: yes, it has been a long time since a visitor just walked through
Adams Rubble is feeling better about the all day retreat
Riddle Sideways: yes, RL happens :)
Adams Rubble: a little wu-wei
Riddle Sideways: :)
Adams Rubble: thinking that the exercises could be something my rl avatar should be doing :)
Adams Rubble: I am in much better shape
Riddle Sideways: listens

With Riddle listening I checked by blog to began a ramble on the past few days

Adams Rubble just took a quick look at my blog to see where i was
Adams Rubble: I reread the three sessions Pema and Stim did called prehistory
Adams Rubble: they were really more about Being
Adams Rubble: Stim prefers the word "Is"
Adams Rubble: I have been trying to think what "Playing as Is" might mean
--BELL--
Adams Rubble: When these sessions were heard I knew nothing about the Heart Sutra and Em[ptiness
Adams Rubble: so when Stim said Being and Is are empty that went over my head
Riddle Sideways: yes
Adams Rubble: I have been reading some about the Heart Sutra the last few days
Adams Rubble: What i do not know is what "form" means in the Heart Sutra
Adams Rubble: sorry bell
Riddle Sideways: :p bell
Adams Rubble: what do you think abut that?

How did I not notice Heart Sutra sessions in paB?

Riddle Sideways: am not the one to answer. there were a group recently diving deep into the Heart Sutra
Riddle Sideways: perhaps those sessions can give more foder
Adams Rubble: in PaB?
Riddle Sideways: yes
Adams Rubble: gee, I don't remember
Riddle Sideways: before Maxine's book study started
Adams Rubble: will have to look
Riddle Sideways: so maybe last fall/winter
Adams Rubble: they did the TSK book
Adams Rubble: OK, I will look
Riddle Sideways: after the TSK book
Adams Rubble: wow
Adams Rubble: In the sessions too interesting statements
Riddle Sideways: the Heart Sutra was on a billboard here
Adams Rubble: Pema said he cried the first time he heard the Heart Sutra
Adams Rubble: the second interesting statement was after Stim and Pema said they were lazy
Adams Rubble: Stim siad that people could sit on Pema for two weeks and he would still not know what lazy menat
Adams Rubble: meant
Adams Rubble wonders were in the world she was at during the heart sutra sessions
Riddle Sideways: https://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_Logs/2016/10/2016.10.20_13%3a00_-_Heart_Sutra%3a_Why_Study_This%3f_How%3f_Let's_start_anyway_%3a)?highlight=Heart+Sutra
Riddle Sideways: several weekly sessions around that oct/nov 2016
Adams Rubble: Thank you

In looking at the Sessions on the Heart Sutra I find I was the the second session, and even commented, so my next statement is very appropriate.

Adams Rubble hits herself on the head with a show
Adams Rubble: shoe
Riddle Sideways: many said they did not really understand, but were willing to explore together
Riddle Sideways: hits her angel's head on the head of a pin
Adams Rubble: thank you for the link
Riddle Sideways: so many great things happen at the 1300 sessions. just when RL is most insistant
Adams Rubble nods
Adams Rubble: it was never a good time for me
Riddle Sideways: the 0700's were much easier to get to
Riddle Sideways: for a while
Adams Rubble: the 0700s are my favorite
Riddle Sideways: yes

I raise a question about APAPB if Being is empty

Adams Rubble: if "Being" is empty, does that turn around APAPB?
Riddle Sideways: if those Heart Sutra sessions don't satisfy... maybe chats with those attendees will
Adams Rubble: let me try to remember my thinking
Riddle Sideways: listens
Adams Rubble: appreciate the presence of appearance as the presentation of being
--BELL--
Adams Rubble: is "Being" dependent on the presence of appearance rather than appearance being a sign of Being
Adams Rubble: of course emptiness might just mean that Being is always changing
Riddle Sideways: the Presentation of Being
Riddle Sideways: might just be the last part
Riddle Sideways: the Presentation of Is
Riddle Sideways: Being, Is, All, One, empty, other
Riddle Sideways: presenting
Riddle Sideways: the Presentation
Riddle Sideways: hmmm, tangled up in 'words'
Adams Rubble: words are tough, a hinderance
Riddle Sideways: have a 'something' that we'll label Being or Is or 'whatever' for now
Riddle Sideways: and there is a Presentation
Adams Rubble: I always thought of it as the last part but when thinking about its emptiness, I turned it around to see what I had
Adams Rubble: that being does not exist without the presence of appearance
Riddle Sideways: reading forward was always hardest
Adams Rubble: but hmm, yes, you are right, there is the presentation
Adams Rubble: so is it the presentation that is dependent on the presence of appearance
Adams Rubble: that makes sense to me
Riddle Sideways: good! now please explain
Adams Rubble: uh oh
Riddle Sideways: :) yes

I start going through APAPB backwards and try a little razzle-dazzle, sometimes called algebra

Adams Rubble: we have 1) Being
Adams Rubble: we have 2) presentation of Being
Adams Rubble: we have 3) appearance
Adams Rubble: we have 4) presence of appearance
Adams Rubble: then 5) the appreciating part--possibly the most important thing we can do in order to keep a positive energy or attitude
Riddle Sideways: yes! reading from the end back was always easier
Adams Rubble: so, 2 does not exist without 4
Adams Rubble: 4 is dependent on 2
Adams Rubble: 5 + 4 + 2 = insight about 1
Adams Rubble: hehe
Riddle Sideways: 2 CAN exist without 3, 4 or 5

Riddle introduces Great Time and Great Space into the discussion

Adams Rubble: that is what I always thought but now i am not so sure
Riddle Sideways: what if 1 reads as "Great Space" or ...
Adams Rubble: worth exploring the possibility that it isn't
Adams Rubble listens
Adams Rubble: TSK seems to suggest that Being is a combination of Space Time and Knowledge, especially the first too
Riddle Sideways: Great Time (1) existing and happens to have a (2) presentation
Riddle Sideways: Presentation (2) might occasionally have a Appearence (3) (to some)
Riddle Sideways: or probably has appearence, but occasionally has a Presence (4)
Riddle Sideways: to some/you/whatever
Riddle Sideways: Great Wisdom could present Empty
Adams Rubble: are you saying then that Being is there and occasionally an appearance sheds some light on it and then it is best we appreciate it?
Riddle Sideways: or somewhere down/up the chain it is appreciated as Empty
Adams Rubble: ohhhh
Adams Rubble: emptiness is form and form is emptiness
--BELL--
Riddle Sideways: ok
Riddle Sideways: when trying to envision the 4th (and higher) dimensions and the objects ... so often they go empty, blank, unseen
Adams Rubble wonders if "form" is "Being"
Adams Rubble: ohh, you are thinking as empty that way
Adams Rubble: wods are a pain
Adams Rubble: words
Riddle Sideways: think "form" is more Appearence or
Adams Rubble: interesting!
Riddle Sideways: Wods are a pain too
Adams Rubble giggles
Adams Rubble: The first time I read the heart sutra I almost cried, not out of joy, but from fear
Riddle Sideways: any and all the 5 words vary through the range of amountness
Riddle Sideways: yes!
Adams Rubble: ohhh amountness :)
Riddle Sideways: sorry, not sure what 'word' to put there
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: I like it
Adams Rubble: but quanity might be the word you are looking for :)
Riddle Sideways: yes
Adams Rubble: the scientific word
Adams Rubble: not the poet's word

BS again

Riddle Sideways: the quanity of appearence and/or presentation varying the amount of Being seen
Riddle Sideways: Oh Dear! the Seen word
Adams Rubble: not to mention the quality of appreciation
Adams Rubble: BS you mean
Adams Rubble giggles
Riddle Sideways: giggles at both
Adams Rubble: Stim did not understand the YSBS exercise
Adams Rubble: said how can Being see
Riddle Sideways: thinking of the Quality of 8-bit graphics
Riddle Sideways: in a way...
Adams Rubble: but we don't want to start with YSBS this late in a session :)
Adams Rubble: can we put a wrap on APAPB?
Riddle Sideways: good... will stop Seeing stuff
Adams Rubble: hehe
Adams Rubble: we can emphasize any of the 5 words and get a different view
Riddle Sideways: of course
Riddle Sideways: and is what is usually done
Adams Rubble: dare I wonder about how Being would see APAPB
Riddle Sideways: am happiest with each of the 5 words (and the combinations of sub-phrases) vary in intensity with each saying
Adams Rubble takes off other show and hits herself in the head
Riddle Sideways: lol
Adams Rubble: shoe
Riddle Sideways: no, like 'show'
Adams Rubble: maybe end with APAPB is a show
Adams Rubble: or as Ed Sullivan might say " a really big shoe"

Onion-like layering

Riddle Sideways: in TSK there were onion type layering
Adams Rubble: yes
Riddle Sideways: and the little mindedness of a current layer
Riddle Sideways: is easily solved in the next layer
Riddle Sideways: the seeing no solution
Adams Rubble: but joy in appreciation
Riddle Sideways: stepping back, raising conscienceless, out a layer
Riddle Sideways: Yes! all of it is the Joy in/of Appreciation
Riddle Sideways: puts the smile on today
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: we seem to find a good place to end a session :)
--BELL--
Adams Rubble: Thank you Riddle fo meeting me today to make up for my absence Tuesday
Riddle Sideways: and again the topics of Silent meditation Day and/or Monterey Pop 50th are saved for another day
Adams Rubble: :)
Riddle Sideways: no makeup neccessary
Adams Rubble: 50th anniversary?
Riddle Sideways: always glad for chat
Adams Rubble: wow
Adams Rubble: yes, good chat
Riddle Sideways: until next time, my friend
Adams Rubble: I hope you have a wonderful day. Not so far to go until next week now :)
Riddle Sideways: :) yes
Adams Rubble: bye for now and thanks again :)
Riddle Sideways: if you look at it like that
Riddle Sideways: thank you

******************************************************************************************************************************************

The following Sunday morning:

APAPG

After reading Agatha's response to the questionnaire, I wanted to talk about APAPB in Christian terms. Agatha kindly agreed to meet with me on Sunday morning June 25, 2017 at her residence

As it turned out the interviewer broke the cardinal rules of interviewing and became the interviewee as well as the interviewer. Mea culpa. Since the result of our conversation was not appropriate to append to Agatha's answers, I decided to append it to my discussion with Riddle about APAPB. This discussion took place .

Adams Rubble: Let's have at it. I have prepared some introduction and hopefully it is not too tedious

Agatha Macbeth: Okaay

Adams Rubble: I want to talk about APAPG - Appreciating the Presence of Appearance as the Presentation of God

Adams Rubble: can you get Youtube will we sit in SL?

Agatha Macbeth: Right

Agatha Macbeth: I can

Agatha Macbeth: Fire away

Adams Rubble: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeEwd5ogjKo

Adams Rubble: some nice background to what I am going to say

Adams Rubble: After I contacted you I began to explore APAPD from a Buddhist viewpoint and realized I do not really do not understand APAPD as well as I thought. One issue is that we never were able to define Being, a term Steven Tainer apparently coined and then seemingly disavowed. He prefers "Is".

Agatha commented on the music. As Youtube often does, after the Laudate Dominum finished, new music was popping up during the rest of our discussion; Agatha comments on these as the discussion continues.

Agatha Macbeth: Oh nice

Agatha Macbeth: Right

Adams Rubble: I had a PaB session with Riddle last Thursday morning and we kicked it around a bit

ed note: see above

Adams Rubble: you can look at that later if you like

Agatha Macbeth: Okies

Adams Rubble: I think APAPB is less to be understood than to be meditated upon to make us more mindful. Mindful is a Buddhist word but also is a PaB state (the purpose of the nine seconds) and can be cross cultural. It basically mean to pay attention to what you are doing and what is actually happening around us.

Adams Rubble: I am going to try to phrase my introduction as a question but it is a bit polemic. What if we substitute God for Being: Appreciate the Presence of Appearance as the Presentation of God? As a example I am going to talk about the spiritual feeling or connection we might find arising in us during the liturgy or a beautiful piece of religious music.

Adams Rubble: thus the youtube with Elina singing Laudate Dominum

Agatha Macbeth nods

Adams Rubble: We could look around and say to ourselves "I get it" sort of like the Pharisee in Luke 18:9-14: " God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are"

Adams Rubble: or women :)

Agatha Macbeth: :P

Agatha Macbeth: Or both!

Adams Rubble: :)

Adams Rubble: APAPG asks to focus on the appearance not on the experience itself. It goes beyond (to quote the Heart Sutra) and points us to the presence of the appearance, not the appearance of the experience. We are resting in the presence.

Agatha Macbeth: OK

Adams Rubble: Then we are asked to appreciate that experience, not as the Pharisee in Luke in a self serving way.

I later realized that I had quoted Luke out of context and Agatha was asking what the quote meant. It took me a while to catch on and provide the full quote from Luke.

Agatha Macbeth: What did he actually mean by that?

Adams Rubble: Appreciation like gratefulness or thankfulness is positive energy for us. It can remove negative thoughts.

Agatha Macbeth: I'm wondering about the context

Adams Rubble: not sure what you mean

Agatha Macbeth: Ah OK

Agatha Macbeth: Er

Agatha Macbeth: God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are

Agatha Macbeth: To what was he referring?

Adams Rubble: I think it works better with liturgy than sacred music

Finally the lighbulb goes on and I get it

Adams Rubble: ohh, the Pharisee

Agatha Macbeth: I see

Agatha Macbeth: Phari-see :P

Adams Rubble: heh heh

Agatha Macbeth: Sorry to interrupt...please go on

Adams Rubble: in the Pharisee's case it was the Godly life he was leading

Agatha Macbeth: (Just moi)

Agatha Macbeth: OK

Agatha Macbeth: Or *believed* he was leading?

Adams Rubble: One can get very self-righteous and there are a good many Christians going around noticing other people's sins

Agatha Macbeth: Indeed

Agatha Macbeth: The mote that's in yer eye, etc

Adams Rubble: Here is the full quote:  Also He spoke this parable to some ewho trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee fstood and prayed thus with himself, g‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Adams Rubble: yes

Agatha Macbeth: Ahh, good

Agatha Macbeth: Yes I see

Adams Rubble: I was pointing out how looking at the appearance rather than the presence might give us a different perspective that could be misleading

Agatha Macbeth: Right

Adams Rubble: the appearance being I am good because I have this experience

Agatha Macbeth: Yes

Adams Rubble: but looking beyond we can look at the presence and ask whether that comes from me or someplace else

Agatha Macbeth: Seeing the other's perspective

Adams Rubble: yes and even more

Agatha Macbeth: Ooh

Adams Rubble: in referring to the feeling we get from the liturgy or the music

Agatha Macbeth: For me, feeling is everything :p

Adams Rubble: :)

Agatha Macbeth: Oh I love ths bit

Adams Rubble: APAPG asks us to look at the presence of that feeling

Adams Rubble: So far so good but next the APAPG wants us to go "way beyond" with our appreciation

Agatha Macbeth: Ah

Agatha Macbeth: OK

Adams Rubble: It wants us to recognize that what is arising is the presentation of God. It is through the appreciation of the presence that we get a small glimpse of God.

Agatha Macbeth nods

Adams Rubble: As Piet would say, Does that make any sense? hehe

Agatha Macbeth: It does

Adams Rubble: that was my intro

Agatha Macbeth: Nice

Agatha Macbeth: Whenever I hear Pharisee I always think of 'Woe to you scribes and Pharisees' :P

Agatha Macbeth: Whited sephulchres and all that

Playing with typo

Adams Rubble: yes, the Pharisees got very bad press in the Godpels

Agatha Macbeth: Mm

Adams Rubble: Gospels

Agatha Macbeth: Godspell :)

Adams Rubble: :)

Adams Rubble: The Pharisees taught by asking hard questions but the Gospels turned that around on them making them appear as if they don't get it. Still, if we can make it more generic and the Luke example is a useful metaphor of the dangers of becoming holier than thou :)

Agatha Macbeth: That was nice

Agatha Macbeth: I think Jesus was saying the followed the form but missed the spirit

Agatha Macbeth: they*

Adams Rubble: yes

Agatha Macbeth: Hence he called them hypocrites

Adams Rubble nods

Adams Rubble: The Talmud is much kinder to the Pharisees :)

Agatha Macbeth: For me it's much the same as 'render unto Caeser' etc.

Adams Rubble: (I like your writing desk)

Agatha Macbeth: It's from Caledon :)

Agatha Macbeth: Got it with Wol ages ago

Adams Rubble: I have not been there in ages

Adams Rubble: hehe

Agatha Macbeth: Nice place

Adams Rubble: yes

Agatha Macbeth: But not as vibrant as PaB