2017.06.26 13:00 - The Thing is to Be Aware

The Guardian for this The Wisdom of Lived Experience - Views from Psychoanalysis, Neuroscience, Philosophy and Metaphysics meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal, who almost didn't make it due to a traffic situation, but arrived, albeit not quite prepared to lead a discussion. Thankfully, PaB discussions have a way of leading themselves. ;-)

Agatha Macbeth: The road to nowhere eh
Eliza Madrigal: the road to circles
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: You must have a traffic channel on yr radio. Do you?
Eliza Madrigal: maybe.... it is just chaos...
Eliza Madrigal: How are you all?
Bruce Mowbray: Doing fine, ty.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: happy now that summer's here
Agatha Macbeth: Better for seeing you :)

Eliza Madrigal: um, a one armed man, Bruce?  
(twin peaks humor [to my view Bruce's arm was behind his back], joke fell flat ;-))
Agatha Macbeth: A one armed man?
Eliza Madrigal: must be my viewer :))

Bruce Mowbray tries to count how many belts Eliza is wearing.
Agatha Macbeth: Oh right
Agatha Macbeth: Me too
Eliza Madrigal grins
Agatha Macbeth remembers the Fugitive
Agatha Macbeth: So it was *you* Brucie! You scamp
Agatha Macbeth: One hand clapping
Bruce Mowbray ducks head in innocence.

Agatha Macbeth: Hi Cat ^.^
Eliza Madrigal: Hiya Cat!
Bruce Mowbray: Ello, Cat.
Aphrodite Macbain: Just planted a rose in my garden. :-) I feel like ma nature
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Cat
Agatha Macbeth: Only one?
Aphrodite Macbain: Bleu
Bruce Mowbray: Ello, Bleu.
Eliza Madrigal: lovely, Aph... SL or RL?
Aphrodite Macbain: RL
Bleu Oleander: hi y'all :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :)
Agatha Macbeth: Bleuji ♥
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi everyone :)
Aphrodite Macbain: only one- it's my centrepiece
Agatha Macbeth: Nice
Eliza Madrigal: oh :)
Aphrodite Macbain: smells great
Agatha Macbeth sniffs
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) we planted a rose bush at our new house :) love them :)
Eliza Madrigal: I will need help today.... I was ahead of everyone in reading again last week, and this week quite distracted until moments ago!
Aphrodite Macbain: will make the bees and butterflies happy
Aphrodite Macbain: what kind Cat?
Agatha Macbeth: Bzzz
Catrinamonblue Resident: I don't remember Aph, dh picked it out :) it is just getting started :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: we have 2 honeybee hives in our garden. They're pollinating like crazy
Agatha Macbeth: Good old DH I say
Eliza Madrigal: wonderful :)
Agatha Macbeth: ooh nice
Agatha Macbeth: Are they Sufi bees?
Catrinamonblue Resident: I did the reading earlier but found it difficult to understand so no report from me but I will listen to others to try and get a grasp on this :)

Bruce Mowbray: Ello, Mick.
Agatha Macbeth: Micko :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick :)
Bleu Oleander: hi Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: hello all !
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Mick :)
Bruce Mowbray: How does it feel to be able to sit down, Mick?
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Eliza Madrigal: excuse me just a sec, brb
Mickorod Renard: feels great..but also I liked being where I was
Agatha Macbeth: Is George barking?
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh. Vertility!
Bruce Mowbray: Versitility* sry.
Agatha Macbeth: Virility?
Agatha Macbeth: Oh
Bruce Mowbray: Versatility.

--BELL--

Agatha Macbeth: Universatility
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bruce Mowbray: If you're versatile enough, you can go with any spelling of vursytale.
Aphrodite Macbain: Tility
Mickorod Renard: can't beat spreading yourself around
Eliza Madrigal: :) back
Agatha Macbeth: WB
Eliza Madrigal: ty ^^

Eliza Madrigal: time to get started?
Agatha Macbeth: ^.^
Agatha Macbeth: Ar
Eliza Madrigal calls for reports
Bruce Mowbray: wb, Eliza. Yes, let's get started.
Bruce Mowbray has no report today, sry.
Eliza Madrigal: aw
Eliza Madrigal: that's fine of course, anyone else?
Bruce Mowbray: :(
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Mickorod Renard: I wrote something, but usually i write about the wrong thing
Bruce Mowbray eagerly waits for Mick's report.
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: go for it
Agatha Macbeth: Is there a wrong thing here?
Mickorod Renard: he he
Eliza Madrigal: :) good question aph aggers
Mickorod Renard: i decided I couldnt write about the passage so I wrote about a scenario
Aphrodite Macbain: listens
Agatha Macbeth listens

Mickorod Renard: I did play with scenario. To picture it in my mind. for eg, I thought about someone I knew, who struggles. They were repeatedly abandoned in a variety of ways..including the father having to move away and being kept from having contact. Mother had a drink problem and was also young and carefree leaving the child with others to care for.
Mickorod Renard: So i thought, ...the person I know..would have had an issue with expecting to be abandoned or neglected. Later in life , they find themselves , disassociating from the past memories but attached to the expectant neglect as this was what the mind had been conditioned to expect.
Mickorod Renard: However when the neglect doesn't appear in later life they create a form of disharmony due to not receiving the expected neglect or rejection and this brings about others not wanting to be around them and as such creates a cycle of rejection again.
Mickorod Renard: i would love to hear on how one would approach this. i assume a therapist would try and get the client to open up and identify with the past trauma and then take it from there. But for caring people around them, how do they cope with the behavior
Aphrodite Macbain: interesting
Mickorod Renard: problems and not take offence and reject them?
Mickorod Renard: done

Eliza Madrigal: thank you Mick, what a good question for us
Bruce Mowbray thinks to himself: "We carry within ourselves the worlds in which we live..."
Mickorod Renard: yes Bruce
Mickorod Renard: we are so similar yet so diferent
Bruce Mowbray: Does it come down to that person's not feeling "worthy," Mick?
Mickorod Renard: I am not sure Bruce,,but I suspect that is in there,,insecurity
Bruce Mowbray nods, agrees.

Bleu1 and Bleu2

Bleu Oleander: kinda like people marrying people similar to their abusive parents because its what they know and in a way are comfortable dealing with?
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bruce Mowbray: BINGO, Bleu1
Mickorod Renard: good point Blue
Bruce Mowbray: (!)
Aphrodite Macbain: Better the devil you know.....
Agatha Macbeth looks for Bleu2
Eliza Madrigal: Said to my grandfather yesterday, "accepting or forgiving an individual, while considering their background and circumstances, contexts, isn't so hard, but... rerunning the patterns with them over and over again is quite another thing.
Bleu Oleander: dissociated Bleu 1 and 2
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: :P
Eliza Madrigal: So I'd think that, even for a therapist the key would be some level of self-awareness and care
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Eliza Madrigal: you are willing to get deeper with someone who is willing themselves
Aphrodite Macbain: I a gree Eliza
Bleu Oleander: that's probably key for anyone

Therapy, more or less

Aphrodite Macbain: I have nothing to say except I am beginning to understand how stressful this work can be for a psychiatrist. They have to work work on themselves first. I wonder how many do or can.
Eliza Madrigal: this book is making me think I need more therapy :P
Mickorod Renard: for me, in this case,,I would love not to become angry when they are behaving badly due to their issue
Agatha Macbeth: Xira :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Xiri!
Agatha Macbeth: Woot
Aphrodite Macbain: Xiri!! Yayy
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Xiri :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Xir
Bruce Mowbray: Apparently those reruns do not do the job. . . without ... what is it? ... therapeutic right-brain to right-brain intervention.
Agatha Macbeth: Hola
Bleu Oleander: this book is having the opposite effect for me ... don't ever want therapy LOL
Bruce Mowbray: Ello, Xir.
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Xirana Oximoxi: hello everyone! :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I dont ever what to BE a therapist
Bleu Oleander: hi Xiri :)
Bleu Oleander: that too Aph :)
Bruce Mowbray: I'm sort of agreeing with Bleu --- Going into therapy would require a whole lot of trust....
Mickorod Renard: this book can help us cope with dificult people around us
Catrinamonblue Resident: I have had a few amazing therapists in my life and am deeply deeply grateful to the work they did with me....

Agatha Macbeth: Didn't Woody Allen say something like 'anyone who sees a therapist needs their head examined?' :p
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder if it's stressful for every psychiatrist
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Mickorod Renard: ha ha Ags
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Eliza Madrigal: cute, Agatha :) And of course he is well known for constantly seeing therapists
Bruce Mowbray: only the good ones, Aph.
Mickorod Renard: but also well said Cat
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder if the good ones meditate Bruce
Agatha Macbeth: Bless him
Mickorod Renard: I have seen with many it is a milestone to achieve to get someone who needs therapy to take it
Bruce Mowbray: The "good ones" know how to put themselves into a "professional space" --- and how to "distance" themselves from that space when appropriate.
Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose it comes with practice
Eliza Madrigal: I'm trying to be more sensitive... With some people I've taken such a hard line at not going down certain roads, but then you realize if no one ever does that in a way that might help open it all up, they may stay there, and you with them. There may be no 'expert' coming, or anyone more available than oneself

--BELL--


Catrinamonblue Resident: the thing about travelling down roads I feel is to be aware of whats going on, can change things that way maybe
Mickorod Renard: I think as with many illnesses, there are some that will go by itself after a period and others that need helping on its way
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- paying attention and seeing what is real
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Raffi
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Raffi
Mickorod Renard: Hi raffi
Bruce Mowbray: Ello, Raffi.
Agatha Macbeth waves to Raff
Xirana Oximoxi: hello Raffi :)
Raffila Millgrove: hii all sorry to be late.
Bleu Oleander: hi Raffi :)

Addictive Habits

Mickorod Renard: like smoking,,I packed up all by myself..others need patches or hypnosis
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Agatha Macbeth: Me too actually
Bruce Mowbray: I'm guessing that what consititutes
Eliza Madrigal: do you remember how you felt before you did that? what was the trigger for being able to quit?
Bruce Mowbray: I'm guessing that what constitutes "childhood trauma" is different for different people... some much more sensitive to it than others.
Mickorod Renard: I quit several times,,and it was anger that made me re start,,then i decided that who was making me angry was not going to kill me by making me smoke
Bruce Mowbray listens.
Agatha Macbeth: Agreed Brucie
Eliza Madrigal: true, not everyne gets stuck in the same way
Agatha Macbeth grins at Mick
Mickorod Renard: sorry Bruce, was mid typing
Xirana Oximoxi: I was able to stop smoking after two or three tries... just because I noticed how bad it was and how tired I was simply by going up stairs...
Mickorod Renard: yes, childhood trauma,,could be anything

Bruce Mowbray wonders if "addictive personalities" might have their roots in childhood trauma.
Eliza Madrigal: cultural patterns too, in things like smoking... what one is around
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I was thinking that the addiction might be a "search" for compensation.
Eliza Madrigal: ah for sure
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods.. makes sense
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes Bruce- I wondered that too. How does one become an addictive personality? Is it genetic?
Eliza Madrigal: especially if provides 'escape' from tormenting thoughts?
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Mickorod Renard: some may be more predisposed to dramatizing events into trauma
Bruce Mowbray: nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: more labile?
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps some sense of "hollowness" or "not-enoughness" that then needs to be filled....
Aphrodite Macbain: nods-
Aphrodite Macbain: like binge eating
Eliza Madrigal: ability to delay gratification/relief
Bruce Mowbray: Eating, smoking, drugs, sex, whatever....
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes one (cough..myself) thinks they solve one thing then it shows up another place

Mickorod Renard: its funny isnt it,,the book suggests that mothering can be the bedrock,,yet some would argue that over mothered would leave a person more ,,erm,,,,soft?
Agatha Macbeth: Like a lump in the carpet
Aphrodite Macbain: he
Eliza Madrigal: my overmothering seems to have made my kids prickly
Aphrodite Macbain: solid and stable but not lenient
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Eliza Madrigal: cactus children....hahah
Bruce Mowbray: Well, (according to Winnecott) the child must also "destroy" the connection to the mother....
Mickorod Renard: I don't think I have any vices now..'cough'
Aphrodite Macbain: what do you consider overmothering Eliza?
Agatha Macbeth: What all of them?
Catrinamonblue Resident: It's a hard balance I guess.... I feel I perhaps didn't mother enough but kids seem balanced and functioning for the most part....
Eliza Madrigal grins at Mick
Agatha Macbeth: Hallelujah Cat
Eliza Madrigal: lots of little things Aph... I didn't even think my son could dress himself til I went away for a weekend... he was like 7
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Bruce Mowbray: I think that an important part of parenting (fathering as well as mothering) is to be available -- but not OVER- available.
Aphrodite Macbain: So he was dependent
Eliza Madrigal: no, I was :)
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Agatha Macbeth: Hehe
Xirana Oximoxi: :-)
Catrinamonblue Resident: hahaha Eliza :) my daughter wouldn't LET me even pick out her clothes when she reached an age to say no and mine :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: now I look back and wow.. but then, I was just sort of doing all the things I thought I would have wanted

Bruce Mowbray: It's important for a child to fall down . . and then realize that he can pick HIMSELF back up -- that he does not always need a parent available for that.
Aphrodite Macbain: how else can you decide?
Catrinamonblue Resident: makes sense :)
Eliza Madrigal nods Bruce
Mickorod Renard: Yes Bruce, there was something at the start of the book,,re letting the child progress through to adulthood
Bruce Mowbray: The parent teaches the child to walk so that he can WALK on her/his own.
Catrinamonblue Resident: it's a hard thing to balance though.... when is enough too much? and when is it too little? and each child is different in needs
Mickorod Renard: trying to remember if it had a term or word for it
Eliza Madrigal: also knowing when to feed or starve various patterns... don't think there can be sure formulas
Eliza Madrigal nods Cat..and adult
Aphrodite Macbain: I guess you just watch what happens...?
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Mickorod Renard: getting back to the section in the book,,have we addressed it?

Bleu Oleander: wondering when to give puppy the run of the house ... perhaps being too much of a helicopter mom :)
Eliza Madrigal grins!
Agatha Macbeth: Yay I unblocked the bell
Bleu Oleander: ok so not a child but .... well you know :)
Eliza Madrigal: just when you think they can be trusted, they eat an ant trap
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: yep
Mickorod Renard: he he
Agatha Macbeth: Bet the ants were pleased
Eliza Madrigal: yay Agatha :) so you can hear it now?
Bruce Mowbray: Better to eat the ant than to eat the aunt.

--BELL--

Aphrodite Macbain: moans
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Bruce Mowbray: 
Xirana Oximoxi: hehe
Aphrodite Macbain: (It's the poison in the trap I'd be worried about)

Bruce Mowbray: Does anyone else feel that he/she could do the therapy on themselves. I mean, do the child trauma recovery stuff by yourself?
Mickorod Renard: I have seen some kids completely uninterested in seeing their parents argue and swear and curse..getting on with their own interests..whilst I as a kid could sense the slightest change in a tone of voice and wince at it
Bleu Oleander: sounds like the perfect storm Bruce :)

Catrinamonblue Resident: Mick I have been thinking about your question from the end of your report "But for caring people around them, how do they cope with the behavior" If you understand where the behavior is coming from and are not triggered by it then I feel the best thing is to try and stand by them, gently saying I'm here and I'm not going anywhere.

Bruce Mowbray: I've always felt that such healing was one of the major jobs of religion, faith, spirituality...
Aphrodite Macbain: Me too Mick
Agatha Macbeth: It used to be
Mickorod Renard: Thank you Cat, this is the strength I need to find within myself for them

Catrinamonblue Resident: Bruce from my experience I don't think a person could do therapy on themselves... there are patterns ingraned that may not be percieved by you but that a therapist can see and redirect....
Bruce Mowbray: Create a safe space for BOTH of you, Mick.
Eliza Madrigal: to some extent, with willingness and searching. But sometimes you need further help
Bruce Mowbray: I agree, Cat.
Mickorod Renard: mmmm ty Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: and Eliza.
Eliza Madrigal: I think therapy worked for me because I'd already done a lot of 'self therapy'
Eliza Madrigal: so in essence we were a team
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder how group therapy would work. I imagine it would be less stressful on the psychiatrist
Bleu Oleander: thinking you can "do it all yourself" can cause problems too
Mickorod Renard: yes Bruce, I think someone who has faced child trauma could do it themselves when they have identified it

Bruce Mowbray: Maybe it depends on how "dissociated" we are.
Catrinamonblue Resident: I have been in and out of therapy since I was 17 so it's always been a part of my self discovery
Agatha Macbeth: There's no I in team, but there's M and E
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Mickorod Renard: thats what I was thinking Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: a lot of people go through individual therapy and then just 'follow up' with group therapy

Aphrodite Macbain: By hearing others' experience, you could relate and not feel so alone
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bruce Mowbray: Good point, Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: and it's maybe less work for the shrink :-)
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Eliza Madrigal: I also know people who've been through a lot of therapy but seem to use it to validate their despair?
Aphrodite Macbain: oh? how?
Bruce Mowbray: Therapy can be addictive, too.
Mickorod Renard: maybe this is how folk do it in alcoholics anon or similar
Aphrodite Macbain: someone cares....Bruce
Bleu Oleander: therapy can be a crutch too
Catrinamonblue Resident: That can happen Eliza but I feel that the therapist may not have been the right one to reach them? I have seen this as well
Aphrodite Macbain: everyone needs someone to care and listen to them
Bruce Mowbray nods @ Bleu.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Aphrodite Macbain: we can all do that

Eliza Madrigal thinks of Fight Club and running around to the meetings ^.^
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bruce Mowbray ponders brain parasites.
Aphrodite Macbain: ?
Aphrodite Macbain: why
Agatha Macbeth: The first rule of fight club is...
Bruce Mowbray: (from the movie, and book, Aph.)
Bleu Oleander: very real these days Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Brain Parasite group.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: something else to add to my lengthening list
Aphrodite Macbain: what's the 1st rule Aggers?
Bleu Oleander: tropical parts of the US now have a growing percentage of peeps with brain parasites
Agatha Macbeth: Liz will tell you :p
Bruce Mowbray: YOU DON"T TALK ABOUT FIGHT CLUB!
Aphrodite Macbain: eek
Aphrodite Macbain: oh
Agatha Macbeth rubs her ear
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Thanks brucie
Eliza Madrigal: peeps have sugar in their ears, so parasites like them more (another bad joke (easter candy) that falls flat ;-))
Aphrodite Macbain: they want more people to see the movie
Aphrodite Macbain: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: It would attract bees for me
Aphrodite Macbain: ponders bees in her ears

Eliza Madrigal: AA and other places DO provide a 'place' and set a boundary for the struggle in the same way therapy can
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Eliza Madrigal: and a 'shameless' place
Eliza Madrigal: (ideally)
Bruce Mowbray: a "safe space"
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Agatha Macbeth: Shameless...there's a concept
Aphrodite Macbain: I have to go - but I congratulate everyone on the seamless reordering of the PAB plots
Mickorod Renard: I can't beleive how open I have become..very few secrets now.......it has been liberating in many ways...I suspect the harm for many comes from not letting it out
Eliza Madrigal: Oh thanks Aph :)
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Mickorod Renard: bye Aph
Bleu Oleander: bye Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Aph :)
Agatha Macbeth: TC Aphie
Raffila Millgrove: I also must run.
Raffila Millgrove: xp
Catrinamonblue Resident: Yes Mick :)
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye Aph :)
Mickorod Renard: bye raffi
Eliza Madrigal: bye Raffi
Agatha Macbeth: Be well Raff
Xirana Oximoxi: bye Raffi
Bleu Oleander: bye Raffi
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye raffi :)

Shame

Bruce Mowbray: When I first joined my men's group, I explained that if the group was not safe -- part of which means not-shaming - then I would not stay with it. I've now been in the same group since 1993.
Mickorod Renard: bullies for eg,,rely on people not telling on them
Catrinamonblue Resident: wow Bruce :)
Mickorod Renard: sorry Bruce, listens
Bruce Mowbray: np.
Bruce Mowbray: [done]
Eliza Madrigal: were there rules against Shaming?
Bruce Mowbray: There were positive rules, about support... which meant not shaming.
Bruce Mowbray: We made a "safe" container.
Bruce Mowbray: and make that container at every meeting.
Bruce Mowbray: Therapy would have to be the same for me.
Mickorod Renard: yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Mickorod Renard: I wonder in a way, whether there is a sort of similarity to Bullying about trauma?

--BELL--


Bruce Mowbray: I'm sure that bullying and trauma are closely related when it comes to emotional impact on the victim.
Mickorod Renard: so do we become our own bully?
Bruce Mowbray: People have been known to kill themselves because they were bullied, you know.
Mickorod Renard: yes
Eliza Madrigal: I'm sure trauma affects whether one becomes bullier or bullied, or is able to step out of the pattern?
Bruce Mowbray: For sure, Mick.
Eliza Madrigal: or recognize it even
Bruce Mowbray: Good point, Eliza. I suspect most bullies have been bullied themselves.
Mickorod Renard: I held something back for years,,it was deeply hurting but I felt ashamed to talk about it
Eliza Madrigal: One thing I watched for, was whether the therapist created a continuing 'need' for themself... meaning, what was the end game? I always knew it was for a period of time -- and needed him to have that mindset too. Come to think of it, it is rather the same with medical docs dealing with my health condition.
Bruce Mowbray: Shame is not about something you "did"; it is about something you believe you ARE.
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Eliza.... same thing with spiritual leaders....
Eliza Madrigal: ah, true
Eliza Madrigal: powerful, Bruce... re shame

Mickorod Renard: if I was paying the therapist I would spill the beans on the first day cos I am a skinflint
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Agatha Macbeth: Ha
Eliza Madrigal: haha Mick
Eliza Madrigal: well if you are paying someone wouldn't you want to not withhold what is needed to work with?
Catrinamonblue Resident: Has been lucky to have had free therapy most of the time
Bruce Mowbray: I did exactly that, Mick, and the therapist said, "Well, I'll keep you on my schedule, but if you don't feel tension about any of these issues, just call me and cancel your app't."
Eliza Madrigal: that IS lucky, Cat
Mickorod Renard: the thing I mentioned re the shame..I didnt even do anything to be ashamed of,,which makes it more wierd
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Mick, shame is a feeling about what we ARE, not about something we did.
Mickorod Renard: well done Bruce..he he
Eliza Madrigal: not at all... that's why you can have small children feeling guilt and shame
Bruce Mowbray: Guilt is about actions; shame is about being.

Eliza Madrigal has never heard 'skinflint' before btw
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: extreme frugality.
Mickorod Renard: yes, and like bullys,,folk keep them secret and yet why,,its odd
Agatha Macbeth: You're too generous, that's why
Eliza Madrigal: English expression?
Agatha Macbeth: Hm, thought it was pretty widespread
Mickorod Renard: ok, I admit,,i am a shameful skinflint
Catrinamonblue Resident: I've heard it before, not sure when but in childhood at least.... re - skinflint
Bruce Mowbray: We used "skinflint" as children in Iowa....
Eliza Madrigal: hm, ok
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe not
Mickorod Renard: I feel better now
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bruce Mowbray: (( Mick ))
Mickorod Renard: :)

Eliza Madrigal: a country might be traumatized and seek a bully leader to keep them safe?
Agatha Macbeth: A country did
Bleu Oleander: too close to home!
Bruce Mowbray: I suspect that's one reason we now have Trump as prez, Eliza.
Mickorod Renard: but when we are traumatized and wont talk about it the bully is within..trapped
Bruce Mowbray nods @ Mick.

Bleu Oleander: or maybe its the tapeworms :) http://bigthink.com/ideafeed/thank-g...-in-your-brain
Eliza Madrigal gets creeped out
Bruce Mowbray: OMG!
Bruce Mowbray: Yikes!
Agatha Macbeth: Nasty little buggers
Mickorod Renard: I think the realization is when one says,,I am not letting that trauma hurt me any more
Catrinamonblue Resident: ewwww
Eliza Madrigal: like the point you came to with smoking
Mickorod Renard: yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: sorry I need to go now :) see you all later :)

Mickorod Renard: Stim helped in a way,,with smoking
Mickorod Renard: bye cat
Eliza Madrigal: bye Cat :)
Agatha Macbeth: Stay safe cat
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Cat.
Eliza Madrigal: in WoK homework, Mick? then?
Mickorod Renard: Stim said I would pack up when I really wanted to
Bleu Oleander: bye Cat
Mickorod Renard: asking myself that q I found the real reason I wanted to pack up
Agatha Macbeth: Good old Stim
Bruce Mowbray: Quitting any addiction might require an existential decision.
Eliza Madrigal: didn't he also say something like, when you're smoking really pay attention?
Bruce Mowbray: And when you really make that decision, everything changes.
Bleu Oleander: some addictions are real illnesses and can't be cured by an existential decision tho
Mickorod Renard: not sure about that Eliza..although the smoking was also a meditation for me
Eliza Madrigal: scary news lately about opiods for sure
Bruce Mowbray: Well, actually Bleu, a true addiction REQUIRES intervention.
Bleu Oleander: like opium epidemic
Bruce Mowbray: for sure.
Eliza Madrigal: maybe that's what I remember Mick...
Eliza Madrigal: that one major thing was the meditative break it seemed to give
Mickorod Renard: yes, It did that..and I miss that bit
Bruce Mowbray: oooops. Time for me to be scraping up supper.... Thank you, everyone. Have a pleasant evening.
Eliza Madrigal: I think I've gained weight for not being more attentive when eating

Mickorod Renard: bye Bruce and ty
Agatha Macbeth: Scrape well Brucie
Bleu Oleander: bye Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: Nite Bruce :)
Xirana Oximoxi: bye bye Bruce! I also go now... take care all! :)
Eliza Madrigal: bye Xiri, thanks for popping in
Bleu Oleander: bye Xiri

--BELL--

Mickorod Renard: yes, that is interesting eliza,,eating correctly takes work
Xirana Oximoxi: it has been really interesting to listen to you:)
Xirana Oximoxi: hasta pronto Aga guapina :)
Eliza Madrigal: we've been all over today but always fun :)
*note of a minor editing here by request
Bleu Oleander: wide ranging
Mickorod Renard: I still wasnt sure what i said as a report addressed the section
Agatha Macbeth: Us all over
Eliza Madrigal: smoking too, becomes something that is just part of the day , so if you really 'see yourself' smoking, it may bring awareness
Eliza Madrigal: it was a great question Mick
Mickorod Renard: thankyou Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: it is really at heart because what we need day to day is to have some sense of confidence
Eliza Madrigal: in how we deal with others, especially troubled others, or others who trouble us :)
Bleu Oleander: or just others period :)
Eliza Madrigal: yup!
Eliza Madrigal: get to know anyone and maybe some things will crop up from time to time?
Mickorod Renard: this is true Eliza..and i have felt that I have just been a cog helping the problem perpetuate
Bleu Oleander: the biggest problem is other people ... somebody said that :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Mickorod Renard: he he ,,never a truer word said Bleu

Bleu Oleander: ok on that note .... must get going
Mickorod Renard: me too, bye all
Agatha Macbeth: TC Bleuji
Eliza Madrigal: :) bye Bleu, play freely
Bleu Oleander: bye y'all
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Mick :)
Agatha Macbeth: U2 Mick
Mickorod Renard: c ya!
Agatha Macbeth: You ol' skinflint :p
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Mickorod Renard: he he x
Agatha Macbeth: Hmmm
Eliza Madrigal: ommm

Agatha Macbeth: What a bunch we are
Eliza Madrigal: I don't think I've ever been less prepared for a session than today, but it was interesting!
Eliza Madrigal: quite a bunch for sure :)
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe we unblocked one of those roads
Eliza Madrigal: !
Eliza Madrigal: we drove to the beach to take a few photos before returning A's grad gown...
Agatha Macbeth: Oh they wanted it back?
Eliza Madrigal: and then thought we would take just a short detour coming home, that ended up being like an hour
Eliza Madrigal: of course :)
Agatha Macbeth: OMG
Agatha Macbeth: Skinflints :p
Eliza Madrigal: true dat!
Eliza Madrigal: but really, what use have we for it from here?
Agatha Macbeth: Looks good!
Agatha Macbeth: Our scholarly offspring
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: he puts up with so much from me
Eliza Madrigal: photos in the rain, on the beach, etc
Agatha Macbeth: You can bet he loves it really
Eliza Madrigal: :) hope one day he'll reflect with rose colored glasses

Agatha Macbeth: You do the same with george after all
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Eliza Madrigal: I had to post the last George photo for Wol
Agatha Macbeth: Spreading the love
Eliza Madrigal: who said I was slacking off
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: You?
Agatha Macbeth: Never
Eliza Madrigal: fewer and fewer photos
Agatha Macbeth: Give him a camera and he'll take a selfie
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: can you see flowers on my spot in the village?
Agatha Macbeth: Not from here :p
Eliza Madrigal: where the gazebo is?
Eliza Madrigal: they disappear
Agatha Macbeth: Lets walk up
Eliza Madrigal: k