The Guardian for this meeting was Agatha Macbeth. The comments are by Agatha Macbeth.

Bruce Mowbray: 's current display-name is "Bruce".
Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
Bleu Oleander: hiya Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Bleu.
Bruce Mowbray: I'm watching the interview with Goldblatt.
Bleu Oleander: how r u?
Bleu Oleander: oh, cool
Bruce Mowbray: Fine, thanks.
Bruce Mowbray: and you?
Bleu Oleander: its a great conversation
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, it is!
Bruce Mowbray: They are talking about Milton now.
Bleu Oleander: that's a fasincating part of the book
Bruce Mowbray: (Paradise Lost)
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Bleu Oleander: which I just read for the first time!
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Mick.
Bleu Oleander: hi Tura, Mick :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Tura.
--BELL--
Tura Brezoianu: hi all
Tura Brezoianu: COLORFUL!!
Mickorod Renard: hiya
Bleu Oleander: moi?
Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza :)
Tura Brezoianu: Bleu Elemental
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu, everybody :)
Eliza Madrigal zooming bleu
Bleu Oleander: an homage to artist Murakami
Bruce Mowbray: Looks like sychedelic van!
Bruce Mowbray: psychedelic*
Bleu Oleander: hey Aggers :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, aggers!
Mickorod Renard: hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: amazing...really fabulous
Mickorod Renard: hi Ags
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Eliza.
Bleu Oleander: ty :))
Agatha Macbeth: Evening all
Eliza Madrigal likes Tura's perm, too ^.^
Mickorod Renard: evnin
Agatha Macbeth: Bleu is bleu
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bruce Mowbray: I strongly suggest that everyone watch the interview that Bleu recommended....
Bruce Mowbray: between Goldblatt and Tony Kushner.
Agatha Macbeth: Which? what?
Bleu Oleander: in email
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Tura Brezoianu: I've just watched about half of it
Eliza Madrigal: I was listening but will have to listen again, since I kept being interrupted
Mickorod Renard: i started but too many kids fighting around mew
Bruce Mowbray: I've just finished watching up to the point of audience questions.
Bleu Oleander: I regret not being able to take part in those NYPL events ... they're really fabulous
Bruce Mowbray LOVES the New York Public Library.
Bleu Oleander: me too
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Eliza Madrigal: everyone should be able to live in NY simultaneously
Eliza Madrigal grins
Bleu Oleander: yes!!
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, NYC should annex the world.
Bruce Mowbray: Right now, starting with Ohio!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Eliza Madrigal: So, what chapter are we on now?
Bleu Oleander: are we on 6?
Bruce Mowbray: I just finished 8, but I think we're suposed to be on 6 ....
Mickorod Renard: erm..yes
Bleu Oleander: I missed last week
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, 6, I think.
Eliza Madrigal made herself pause at 8
Mickorod Renard: Bruce had an excellent report last Thursday
Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
Bleu Oleander: yes, just read it
Bruce Mowbray: Original Freedom, Original Sin
Mickorod Renard: I have a really naf report if we are stuck
Agatha Macbeth: Naf is good
Bruce Mowbray listens for Mick's report.
Eliza Madrigal: naf is enaf
Agatha Macbeth pokes Liz
Bleu Oleander: :)
Mickorod Renard: erm,,maybe too naf
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Mickorod Renard: Finished reading this last chapter today and I almost felt that as it rounded up what we had been covering the previous chapters, that it was the end of the book. Obviously it is'nt so I am now quite intrigued to what the rest of the book is going to cover!
Mickorod Renard: Anyway, yes, I had sort of contemplated the sex angle myself in the past. I managed some practical research I vaguely recall. During my youth I recall sex having a massively negative effect on my ability to focus on more important issues. Even my education went down the tubes..pardon the pun. Then, once married one has the burdon of beating off preying males from ones own wife. Oh how complex life is being a man.
Agatha Macbeth: 0.0
Bruce Mowbray ponders "beating off preying males"
Agatha Macbeth: Peying not praying
Mickorod Renard: It has left me a question tho. are we here to procreate or not? or are we to procreate and then return to a more spiritual mind? or perhaps procreation was not our purpose as a species ?
Agatha Macbeth: r
Mickorod Renard: done
Mickorod Renard: said it was naf
Bleu Oleander: perhaps its up to each of us?
Eliza Madrigal: that it was
Agatha Macbeth: The Albigensians would have said no :p
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Well, the Garden of Eden myth(s) seem to indicate that "being fruitful and multiplying" was an afterthought.
Agatha Macbeth: Why Brucie?
Eliza Madrigal listens
Bruce Mowbray: Well, it only happened after they were expelled.
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Bruce Mowbray: and had taken on "carnal" natures.
Agatha Macbeth: No sex in the garden eh
Bruce Mowbray: Right!
Agatha Macbeth: Hm
Mickorod Renard: well, she may have not had a succesful first pregnancy
Eliza Madrigal: I thought it was only painful to multiply, outside of the garden
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Eliza.... Eve's "unishment"
Bleu Oleander: actually that command is in Gen 1
Bruce Mowbray: +p
Bleu Oleander: so before the fall?
Agatha Macbeth: Bruce needs a p
Mickorod Renard: are you basing it on the date of the first arrival bbruce?
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Raff
Eliza Madrigal waves to Raffi
Mickorod Renard: Hi raffi
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I was assuming a lot, as Bleu had pointed out.
Bleu Oleander: hi Raffi
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Raffi.
Bleu Oleander: so perhaps the garden would have become populated
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: what little I picked up from the talk, it seemed that their stopping procreating for a minute is what caused the fall... they shouldn't have been apart for a moment ^.^
Bleu Oleander: ha! yes
Mickorod Renard: was it more to do with lust rather than the other?
Bruce Mowbray: They got God's command to"be fruitful and multiply" before being kicked out....
Bruce Mowbray: but, according to Genesis, they only had Cain and Abel after being kicked out.
Agatha Macbeth: So original sin didn't extend to begetting it seems
Bleu Oleander: I found it interesting that Augustine came to think that there must be something morally wrong with humans from birth
Bruce Mowbray: Augustine's interpretation of "original sin" seemed to be disobedience/pride more than any specific act.
Bleu Oleander: but really Jesus never thought this, did he?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, AUgust thought we enherited a sinfl nature -- biologically.
Bruce Mowbray: Augustine*
Bruce Mowbray: Jesus was Jewish - and so had no concept of original sin.
Agatha Macbeth: :P
Bruce Mowbray: Paul reworked the notion, and Augustine reworked it from Paul.
Bleu Oleander: so original sin was crafted by people much later ... Paul thought Jesus was the "new Adam"
Bruce Mowbray: "As in Amad all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."
Bruce Mowbray: Adam*
Eliza Madrigal nods
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe they should have called it Later sin instead
Bleu Oleander: so Augustine thought the old Adam must be real
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, great idea, aggers!
Bruce Mowbray: Well, except that he wrote a treatise saying the story should not be interpreted literally.
Bruce Mowbray: Spiritually real, perhaps, not literally.
Bleu Oleander: yes, but it was inconclusive
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, unfinished.
Bruce Mowbray: I think that for Augustine, the myth was more "real" than literal history.
Bleu Oleander: I think that's why almost half our country doesn't (can't) believe in evolution
Bruce Mowbray: Yeppers. Good point!
Eliza Madrigal: also because it has been taught badly
Raffila Millgrove: a general comment. I am finding this book.. depressing because it keeps reminding me how much I wish one of the other gods had become ascendant.. and not the one of the Hebrews. Just a personal reaction.
Bleu Oleander: there never was a "first Man" or a "first woman"
Bruce Mowbray: But that sort of Biblical interpretation (literalism) is a very late arrival -- with fundamentalism, actually.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt!
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Qt.
Mickorod Renard: Hi Qt
Qt Core: Hi all
Bleu Oleander: hi Qt
Agatha Macbeth: Buona sera Qt
Bruce Mowbray agreed with Raffi, but is not personally depressed... only wishes the female goddesses had prevailed.
Raffila Millgrove: even if you try to take a very liberal view you are still stuck wiith female inferiority, and concepts like Original Son.. to have everyone born a sinner? rather negative in so many ways (for me)
Bruce Mowbray: agrees*
Mickorod Renard: I personally believe the reason folks dont opt for evolution is that they prefer the more romantice version and also like seperation from nature believing we as humans are more special
Raffila Millgrove: ooh good comment Mick.
Bruce Mowbray agrees with Mick about non-belief in evoltion.
Mickorod Renard: rather than being religious that is
Bruce Mowbray: evolution*
Tura Brezoianu: I'd rather Epicurus and Lucretius had "gone viral". Atoms and the void. No gods needed.
Bleu Oleander: I think that approach does come from this myth tho Mick
Bruce Mowbray: also, because people are stupid.
Bleu Oleander: agree Tura!
Bruce Mowbray cheers for Lucretius.
Mickorod Renard: :)
Raffila Millgrove: It would have been nice if the ten commandants had included something about taking care of each other, all the bits of life.. including the planet etc. there isn't a lot of "kindness" going on in the rule book.
Agatha Macbeth: Too many 'nots'
Raffila Millgrove nods.
Bruce Mowbray: Well, the OT prophets talked about kindness and sharing... justice, too.
Bruce Mowbray: and peace.
Bleu Oleander: one of the questions in the video was why do some stories have legs ... and some just die out for a while and come back years later
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, excellent point, Bleu.
Agatha Macbeth: Natural selection?
Qt Core: Isn
Bleu Oleander: there seems to be some staying power with this story
Mickorod Renard: good point Ags
Qt Core: 't there a part in the bible about letting earth rest and slaves go every seven years, about being kind to earth i mean
Bruce Mowbray: Speaking of stories with staying power, is that Pandora's box over there next to Qt?
Mickorod Renard: stories are subject to natural selection too
Agatha Macbeth: Don't open it!

A Visitor

Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Paul.
Bleu Oleander: chocolates :)
Visitor: Hello
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Paul, welcome
Tura Brezoianu: The lid is rather an enticement
Bleu Oleander: hi Paul
Qt Core: ohhh, scary box
Bleu Oleander: life is like a box of chocolates :)
Bruce Mowbray: We're having a book discussion, Paul.
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: please feel free to join us Paul, welcome to play as being
Agatha Macbeth thinks of Kiss me Deadly
Visitor: I see
Visitor: What book?
Bruce Mowbray: Take a cushion (be seated) if you like.
Bleu Oleander: Greenblatt's "the rise and fall of adam and eve"
Bruce Mowbray: THE RISE AND FALL OF ADAM AND EVE
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bruce Mowbray: sTEPHEN gOLDBLATT.
Bruce Mowbray: oops.
Visitor: I've never heard of it
Agatha Macbeth rubs her ear
Bruce Mowbray: Stephen Goldblatt.
Bleu Oleander: just came out
Visitor: What's it about?
Visitor: Singularity or something?
Bleu Oleander: origins myths and their effects on cutures
Agatha Macbeth: Isn't that a viewer?
Visitor: Oh I see
Bruce Mowbray: We're now discussing Chapter 6
Mickorod Renard: is sex still part of this discussion?
Visitor: Jordan Peterson talks about stuff like that
Bleu Oleander: ha! Mick
Bruce Mowbray: Sure, Mick.
Bleu Oleander: who is he?
Visitor: He's a professor of psychology from Canada
Mickorod Renard: otherwise I am out of my depth
Bleu Oleander: ty
Visitor: Has a lot of his lectures on yutube
Visitor: I listen sometimes when I drive
Bleu Oleander: http://jordanbpeterson.com/
Mickorod Renard: I wonder whether its more to do with 'just becoming adult'
Eliza Madrigal thinks of the study where people would rather shock themselves than sit in silence
Bruce Mowbray: https://www.youtube.com/user/JordanPetersonVideos
Eliza Madrigal was just about to tell him about the pause etc :))
Bruce Mowbray: Poof.

Mickorod Renard: children are innocent..that sort of thing
Bleu Oleander: interesting list of books must read
Eliza Madrigal: say more, Mick?
Mickorod Renard: only thinking that it might just be a play on the idea that once one becomes an age one has to take responsibility
Eliza Madrigal: ah
Mickorod Renard: there is a threshold
Bruce Mowbray: Responsibility comes along with adult "agency."
Mickorod Renard: Adam being the first to cross it
Bruce Mowbray loves notions of transitional space/thresholds/
Mickorod Renard: would encapsulate alot of angles
Eliza Madrigal: once you have a child, have to get your own garden?
Agatha Macbeth: It helps...
Bruce Mowbray: All children are born in their own garden.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Saves 'em wrecking the house
Bruce Mowbray ponders: Whoever invented the notion of "innocence" didn't have kids of his/her own.
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bleu Oleander: or puppies
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Mickorod Renard: it also reminds me of that dream I had in poem form re the Jesus and the Magdelene..and that I missed chatting with jesus because I was so busy thinking of chatting up the Magdelene..in the end the message was I needed to tend to my garden
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Woof
Bruce Mowbray: Wow, Mick. Amazing dream!
Eliza Madrigal: there was yet another take on the A&E story yesterday, at the kabbalah workshop... that the 6 days were embodied dimensions.. each person having their own private genesis, moment in space-time
Bleu Oleander: was that a lucid dream?
Eliza Madrigal: oops, sorry, listening
Mickorod Renard: can't remember now Bleu, but I gave it in the dream sessions years ago
Bleu Oleander: interesting ... so each person has their own garden of eden?
Bruce Mowbray: I really like that interpretation, Eliza..... (we're all in that story, somewhere).
Mickorod Renard: well, mine was well neglected
Eliza Madrigal: that's the way she described it... I logged a report (for later): https://wiki.playasbeing.org/Chat_Logs/2017/10/2017.10.23_13:00_-_KabbaLiz
Bleu Oleander: interesting re-telling of the origin myth ... but what would the commanding role be in that version?
Eliza Madrigal: the domination?
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: manager of resources... either to flourish or destroy... more a responsibility
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: so not really about good and evil then?
Bruce Mowbray: So, "dominion over the animals and plants" would mean "stewardship over" more than "dominion over"?
Bruce Mowbray: or domination of....
Eliza Madrigal nods, although she didn't correct the word dominion, and I wondered about that.
Agatha Macbeth: I'd say so
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Qt Core: the spiderman approach to power ;-)
Agatha Macbeth: Up the wall
Eliza Madrigal: she was even a bit more literal-minded than I could relate to, but I appreciated much of the vision
Bruce Mowbray exercises his dominion agency over arachnophobia....
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: well she pointed to all that mankind wears, eats, etc....
Eliza Madrigal: resources from the earth/garden
Bruce Mowbray looks forward to reading the Kabbala log.
Raffila Millgrove: oh i read a lot about the Kabbala.. and it sounded so interesting. are you in the class now? where is the log?
Bruce Mowbray: Hunger is even a greater motivator than sex, I guess.
Eliza Madrigal: just attended a day class

Agatha Macbeth: Didn't the word garden have a different meaning originally?
Eliza Madrigal: but it fell in line nicely with our discussions
Raffila Millgrove: how so?
Eliza Madrigal: did it, Agatha?
Bruce Mowbray listens . . .
Agatha Macbeth: I seem to remember reading that somewhere
Raffila Millgrove: i was wondering where did the Kabala talk and the book intersect?

I got distracted by Raff's question here

Bleu Oleander: seems much different than what we're talking about here to me, but I really don't know anything about the kabbala
Mickorod Renard: I bet in the garden of eden there was so much abundance, sex was the only thing that came to mind..eventually
Raffila Millgrove: or did you mean some different discussions we had.
Eliza Madrigal: oh, well this one class centered around Adam and Eve, so yet more facets
Bruce Mowbray: Some have interpreted the "Garden to be paradise...
Raffila Millgrove: oh wow. can you tell us about it Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: will give you a link to my report ^^
Raffila Millgrove: excellent. ty. sorry we got two topics going at once.
Agatha Macbeth: Hard enough to follow one sometimes
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah
Eliza Madrigal: one center point seems to be the division between punishment/personal responsibility
Bruce Mowbray: The Adam and Eve story has psychological power . . . which means that it has staying power.
Agatha Macbeth: In the Kab?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: all of our discussion today, including kabbalah really... if center is cause/effect, then we are responsible...
Bruce Mowbray nods. . .
Mickorod Renard: yes
Eliza Madrigal: whether or not punished from outside force
Bruce Mowbray: although in Chapter 7 Eve gets the blame....
Bruce Mowbray: (misogyny)
Eliza Madrigal: women must be super amazing to need to be so suppressed ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: or men must be super paranoid of women.... and therefore need to suppress them.
Agatha Macbeth: Wonder why they didn't blame the snake?
Eliza Madrigal: actually it comes back to the shadow projection perhaps
Bruce Mowbray nods @ Eliza.
Bruce Mowbray: (Jungian)
Mickorod Renard: you know the extreme muslim clothing garment for women..whatever its called,,why is that?
Eliza Madrigal: can't integrate shadow, so project it onto the other
Bleu Oleander: lost me
Agatha Macbeth: Burkah?
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Bruce Mowbray: Because Muslim men wrote the rules. . . and apparently didn't want to be "tempted" by female body exposure.
Mickorod Renard: I was thinking whether there is a llink to acnowledge temptation and put responsibility on women to be less tempting
Eliza Madrigal: there are complexities
Eliza Madrigal: and different sorts of coverings
Agatha Macbeth: It was the snake who did the tempting not Eve
Bleu Oleander: sometimes I think humans make too many complexities :)
Raffila Millgrove: hijab. is that the full body one?
Bruce Mowbray: Also, a man should never shake hands with a Muslim woman.
Eliza Madrigal: burkah is the full one
Eliza Madrigal: hijab is just a head covering
Raffila Millgrove: ah yes.
Mickorod Renard: wondered whether there was some outside take on it from the muslim side?
Mickorod Renard: re adam and eve
Bleu Oleander: must get going ... take care all :)
Raffila Millgrove: well the orthodox jews require head covering of women.. same thing.
Bruce Mowbray: Bye Blue.
Mickorod Renard: bye Bleu
Agatha Macbeth: TC blue Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: I once saw a cartoon.... on one side a woman was covered, and on the other side a woman was nearly naked in an add...each was pointing to the other as exploited and oppressed
Qt Core: bye Bleu
Bleu Oleander: c u all
Eliza Madrigal: ad*
Raffila Millgrove: bye bleu
Eliza Madrigal: bye Bleu :)
Mickorod Renard: yeh, funny that one Eliza
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: We are each "condemned to be free" (Sartre) and are therefor responsible for "dominion" over ourselves. . . That's what being an adult means, I feel. Not blaming anyone else for our own behavior or impulses.
Bruce Mowbray: and on that not, I need to go and scrape up supper.
Bruce Mowbray: note*
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Oui Jean-Paul c'est nous...

I hum the Girl from Ipanima

Mickorod Renard: well, I had better be off
Mickorod Renard: well said Bruce
Qt Core: bye Bruce
Agatha Macbeth: Scrape well Brucie
Mickorod Renard: bye Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: have to go too...daughter waiting for me to pick her up with 10000 pounds of cat litter :))
Agatha Macbeth: Mind the squirrels
Mickorod Renard: bye eliza
Agatha Macbeth: That's a big cat
Mickorod Renard: be well
Raffila Millgrove: bye all.
Eliza Madrigal: diabetic cat
Eliza Madrigal: so...
Eliza Madrigal: :) bfn and thanks
Agatha Macbeth: ^.^
Mickorod Renard: ah
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
Tura Brezoianu: goodnight all
Mickorod Renard: nite Tura
Mickorod Renard: good to see ya
Qt Core: bye all
Agatha Macbeth: Mick's jogging again
Mickorod Renard: cheers Ags
Mickorod Renard: avi needs toilet
Agatha Macbeth: Hehe
Mickorod Renard: c ya
Agatha Macbeth: BFN