2017.11.09 13:00 - Art and Adam and Eve ch7

The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard. 

Bleu Oleander: Hi Mick
Mickorod Renard: Hi Blue
Bleu Oleander: how are you?
Mickorod Renard: good thanks. and you?
Bleu Oleander: fine thanks :)
Bleu Oleander: I brought some visual aids today :)
Mickorod Renard: wow cool
Bleu Oleander: its one thing to read about paintings ... another to see them :)
Mickorod Renard: for sure
Mickorod Renard: I am struggling a bit I am in a dark room with my grand daughter asleep on my shoulder
Bleu Oleander: tough chapter to read as a woman :)
Bleu Oleander: awww
Mickorod Renard: are we still chapt 8?
Bleu Oleander: oh I thought 7?
Mickorod Renard: ah might be
Bleu Oleander: not sure really ha!
Mickorod Renard: i havnt got my book here
Bleu Oleander: ok so these pictures help you then
Mickorod Renard: hopefully, i beed to org my position here in a mo
Mickorod Renard: hold on
Bleu Oleander: kk
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: thats better
Mickorod Renard: oh nice pici
Bleu Oleander: how old is your granddaughter?
Mickorod Renard: 7

Bleu Oleander: hi Bruce
Mickorod Renard: hi bruce
Bleu Oleander: hi Raffi
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Mick. Hi, Bleu. Hi, Raffi.
Raffila Millgrove: hello everyone.
Mickorod Renard: hi raffi
Bruce Mowbray: I looked up these paintings, too.
Bleu Oleander: :)
Mickorod Renard: wow..how come?
Bleu Oleander: I brought a couple of visual aids
Bleu Oleander: mentioned in ch 7
Mickorod Renard: did i miss something?
Bruce Mowbray: They were mentioned in the chapter on misogyny.
Mickorod Renard: oh, I am getting lost somewhere
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Raffila Millgrove: oh dear. i thought we were on six. so sorry.
Mickorod Renard: my book is downstairs as I am presently trying to get two kids to sleep
Bleu Oleander: we can be on 6 and 7 ... all ok
Bruce Mowbray: I think that was last week. . . ok both 6 and 7.
Mickorod Renard: 3 year old now asleep
Bruce Mowbray: Whew!
Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Eliza.
Raffila Millgrove: ah ok. well on MOnday let us be on 8 so we know where we are all at? is that ok?
Bleu Oleander: Aggers
Mickorod Renard: 7 yr still eyes open but on my chest
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, aggers.
Eliza Madrigal: nice installations :)
Bleu Oleander: 8 on monday :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi All :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi ags
Bleu Oleander: visuals help :)
Agatha Macbeth: Oh wahat's that?
Agatha Macbeth: Caravaggio
Agatha Macbeth: Nice
Bleu Oleander: Caravaggio on the left and Hans Baldung Grien on the right
Agatha Macbeth: Hm
Bleu Oleander: Hans is early sixteenth century German artist
Bleu Oleander: interesting that he places Adam as a corpse behind the scene of Eve and the serpent
Aphrodite Macbain: 's current display-name is "Aph".
Bleu Oleander: hi Aph
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Aph.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi
Aphrodite Macbain: art!
Mickorod Renard: hi aph
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Aphie
Eliza Madrigal waves to Aph
Bleu Oleander: Eve art :)
Eliza Madrigal: have never seen this one... looking closely
Bleu Oleander: an amazing painting
Aphrodite Macbain: where is eve on the one on the left?
Bruce Mowbray: She's not in that one.
Bruce Mowbray: That's Mary.
Bleu Oleander: she's implied in the one on the left
Aphrodite Macbain: Looks like Mary, Elizabeth and Jesus
Bruce Mowbray: (and Jesus).
Bleu Oleander: its because she sinned that woman steps on the snake
Aphrodite Macbain: ah
Aphrodite Macbain: that darn snake
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bleu Oleander: Mary corrected the Eve image
Aphrodite Macbain: He still can climb trees on the one on the right
Bleu Oleander: Eve became Ave .... as he says in the book
Aphrodite Macbain: k
Aphrodite Macbain: Ave means "hail"
Aphrodite Macbain: no?
Bleu Oleander: I like to look up the images he mentions in the book ... adds a lot
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray agrees.
Aphrodite Macbain: artists have contribute a lot to our images of all those biblical folks
Bleu Oleander: indeed
Eliza Madrigal: thank goodness
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: when most people were illiterate, images were a handy way of teaching the bible
Bleu Oleander: still are really
Aphrodite Macbain: and interpreting it
Bleu Oleander: only now youtube videos probably :)
Aphrodite Macbain: right :-)
Bleu Oleander: interesting that most of the interpretations of Eve were by men :)
Mickorod Renard: I think I have not got up to this part of the book yet. What was the idea behind the pics again please?
Bruce Mowbray nods.
Bleu Oleander: this chapter was about how the A & E story was colored to fit ideas
--BELL--
Raffila Millgrove: I just realize that I can't be here on MOnday due to...houseguests..however I really think we should be a bit clearer with each other on what chapters we're going to discuss. at our meets. just a thought.
Eliza Madrigal feels somewhat visually impoverished to have grown up protestant, but at least we got to keep some stained glass
Bleu Oleander: :)
Mickorod Renard: :)
Raffila Millgrove: ty bleu for the paintings. they are rather amazing!!
Bruce Mowbray agees with Raffi about getting specific about which chapter we're on.
Aphrodite Macbain: I think I learned more about history and religion from all the art history courses I have taken.
Bleu Oleander: yes, I love these images
Mickorod Renard: you are right raffi, we need to be sure we say what chapterss we are doing
Bleu Oleander: agree Raffi
Bleu Oleander: ch 8 for next week
Raffila Millgrove: ok well is it 8 for monday. i will post it for everyone. since i can't be here.
Eliza Madrigal: up to or including 8?
Bruce Mowbray: kk, thanks.
Mickorod Renard: great, thanks
Raffila Millgrove: we will talk on 8 Mon and Thurs. i will post that if ok by all
Bleu Oleander: yep
Eliza Madrigal: ko
Bruce Mowbray: yeppers.
Raffila Millgrove: super. continue forwards please.
Raffila Millgrove: what idea does the painting of Eliz and mary ... carry forth that is different from the earlier ones?
Bleu Oleander: might be interesting the list all the ways that Eve was described ... just in this chapter alone!
Bleu Oleander: wp,em were mpt fi;;u ji,am
Aphrodite Macbain: I have never seen images of these 3 and the snake before.
Eliza Madrigal: puppy has keyboard? lol
Bleu Oleander: oops
Raffila Millgrove: oh oustanding typos! winner winner.
Bleu Oleander: puppy keys
Aphrodite Macbain: claps
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Eliza Madrigal: suppose it is a notion of women's role in redemption?
Bleu Oleander: women were not fully human that was supposed to say
Raffila Millgrove: really?
Bleu Oleander: man is more the image of God than woman
Aphrodite Macbain: what were they then?
Bleu Oleander: Eve gave birth to sin
Raffila Millgrove: i thought perhaps that Mary was showing Jesus how to crush the snake.
Bleu Oleander: ideas by different people over the years
Bleu Oleander: Eve was pulled from the flesh of the old Adam and the new Adam was born from Mary
Mickorod Renard: the church would commision paintings to convey the message I guess,,rather than the artists own idea?
Bleu Oleander: mostly yes
Aphrodite Macbain: It makes me think of other images, not just Christian, where people crush a snake. Destroying eveil. The sssssnake has had a bad wrap in most cultures
Bleu Oleander: interesting the juxtaposition of Eve vs. Mary
Eliza Madrigal: Jesus is in the forefront also, with the women slightly back and supportive
Eliza Madrigal: not quite out of shadow
Eliza Madrigal: although Hanz has Eve out there lookin pretty satisfied with herself? :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Caravaggio liked shadows
Bleu Oleander: alluring
Agatha Macbeth: ^.^
Raffila Millgrove: yeah Eve is pretty hot.. you gotta admit.
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Mickorod Renard: the one on the right,,has the serpent biting the arm
Mickorod Renard: i dont get that
Raffila Millgrove: yeah biting the arm of the skeleton. odd thing eh?
Mickorod Renard: its a bit like the serpent is protecting eve
Eliza Madrigal laughs... she just seems... shameless. Is it that the serpent caused separation between the two?
Eliza Madrigal: agree Mick
Raffila Millgrove: if you didn't know anything of the story or who is who.. i wonder what idea you'd get looking at this.
Bleu Oleander: Adams is depicted as a corpse
Aphrodite Macbain: Who is that behind the tree? Death? The devil? Adam?
Bruce Mowbray: Is the serpent (that has the head of a rat) tempting Mary, or is Mary teasing the serpent?
Raffila Millgrove: i think it is adam as they are both holding apples.
Mickorod Renard: ah
Aphrodite Macbain: a rat?
Bleu Oleander: I think the latter Bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: "As in Adam all die...." And in this painting he looks like he's be dead a while.
Bruce Mowbray: been*
Mickorod Renard: she does seem to be holding the serpent tail erotically
Aphrodite Macbain: he's dead before Eve then
Bleu Oleander: artist license
Bruce Mowbray: the book said "fingering the snake"
Bleu Oleander: ha! yes
Raffila Millgrove: she's sure looking good here.. haha. i wonder why that is so.... if this was some cautionary tale...
Aphrodite Macbain: the snake bites adam and not eve...
Raffila Millgrove: I guess you are supposed to identify with adam and be very afraid.
Bleu Oleander: if you're a man yes :)
Raffila Millgrove: totally.
Raffila Millgrove: altho personally I am getting a kick out of Eve's power.
Bleu Oleander: lol
Raffila Millgrove: it's too bad that men claimed women had all this power when.. they withheld it from them..
Bruce Mowbray: If males did not fear women's power, they wouldn't feel it necessary to oppress them.
Mickorod Renard: sex is an empowering force for women
Aphrodite Macbain: "This is how you kill a snake" and "this is how you stroke it"
Raffila Millgrove: yeah. well it's all about sex.
Mickorod Renard: maybe..
Bruce Mowbray: for sure, Raffi.
Eliza Madrigal: some would claim they couldn't have held it from them if they weren't more inherently powerful
--BELL--
Raffila Millgrove: that fear of rejection.. that women can withhold yatta yatta. or entice or seduce. all of which is actually true.
Aphrodite Macbain: It's also about disobedience
Bruce Mowbray: Female is power of regeneration - earth . . .
Mickorod Renard: I also think 'temptation' is somewehere in this
Bruce Mowbray: also blaming....
Eliza Madrigal: neither the apple nor adam seems appealing
Raffila Millgrove: well the tempting thing is already over ... in this pic .. isn't it?
Mickorod Renard: temptation features alot in the Bible and it is the bain of most folks problems
Bleu Oleander: even the ancient pagan traditions blamed women for the woes of the world
Aphrodite Macbain: we are always tempted
Bruce Mowbray: If thy eye offend thee, pluck it out.
Bruce Mowbray: (to paraphrase)
Eliza Madrigal saw a photo the other day... 3 pomegranates left on a stoop with a "free" sign. The person captioned it "Nice try Hades."
Bleu Oleander: lol
Agatha Macbeth: :P
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: pomegranates are called the "passion fruit"
Aphrodite Macbain: all those eggs
Aphrodite Macbain: and seeds
Bruce Mowbray nods
Eliza Madrigal: In a sense the A & E story also fits well with that sort of theme of losing half your life/part of your life... as though the spiritual and carnal become divided?
Bruce Mowbray: Augustine certainly made that separation for himself!
Eliza Madrigal nods!
Raffila Millgrove wonders why Bruce is suddenly hammering the wine.
Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Agatha Macbeth: Before the wine hammers him
Bruce Mowbray: In vino veritas.
Bruce Mowbray: Watching Mick drink his teaa mde me thirsty.
Aphrodite Macbain: trouble is, he's pouring it into his forehead
Eliza Madrigal: direct shot
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Agatha Macbeth: Wine makes you even thirstier
Bruce Mowbray: Yikes!
Raffila Millgrove: haha. i saw that Bruce. he got all wobbly there!
Raffila Millgrove: great gesture!
Bruce Mowbray: Yikes!
Mickorod Renard: I havnt been able to detach it yet
Aphrodite Macbain: look and see what ur wearing
Bruce Mowbray: right click on tea, then select detach from yourself.
Agatha Macbeth: Don't believe you
Bleu Oleander: interesting Eliza ... losing half your life/part of your life... as though the spiritual and carnal become divided
Raffila Millgrove: well this book even tho i think it is fanstatic.. so well written and informative.. makes me want to drown myself in drink as well. it's so full of.. things that are upsetting and depressing.
Bleu Oleander: yes :(
Bleu Oleander: but enlightening at the same time
Eliza Madrigal: It is so profound
Eliza Madrigal: so capable of unraveling so much
Mickorod Renard: I am finding it quite facinating
Raffila Millgrove: I appreciate you brought the paintings cause it tends to liven it up a bit and take our mind off a bit how.. sad it is.
Bleu Oleander: art helps
Bruce Mowbray: Wasn't the whole point of the Adam and Eve story to be sort of microcosm of human existence in general?
Eliza Madrigal: (except that those who need the most unraveling won't read it prob) :)
Raffila Millgrove: it does actually.
Bleu Oleander: that's what makes it sad Bruce
Mickorod Renard: I have always thought that Bruce, but from my limited position
Bleu Oleander: good thanksgiving table subject for this year LOL
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) George and I will discuss
Bleu Oleander: as will Zoey and I :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Raffila Millgrove: oh gosh. original sin. a benevolent god who condemns everyone who didn't know about jesus to burn in hell etc.. doiesn't fit good with my turkey day.
Bruce Mowbray: as will the hungry birds and I.
Eliza Madrigal: there are beliefs you hold that you don't realize you do until you try to describe them...
Bleu Oleander: perhaps better as a Christmas subject
Bruce Mowbray: good point, Mick.
Raffila Millgrove: belief i hold is that it would be nice if all the men cooked the dinner.
Bruce Mowbray: sry, meant to say, good point Eliza.
Raffila Millgrove: as well as cleaning and buying and so forth.. for the big day.
Agatha Macbeth: Some don't have a choice
Bruce Mowbray: Best not to consult the turkey beforehand.
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye for now...
Bleu Oleander: bye Aph
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, Aph.
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Aph
Bleu Oleander: next week chapter 8
Raffila Millgrove: bye Alph
Agatha Macbeth: Appointment Aph?
Mickorod Renard: would you think there is an equivalent story in say budhist or hindu ?
Agatha Macbeth: We'll never know
Mickorod Renard: bye Aph
Bleu Oleander: interesting question Mick
Raffila Millgrove: hindu has so many stories.. you probably could find one.
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bruce Mowbray: There are "realms" in Buddhism tht are comparable....
Eliza Madrigal: I've been trying to compare the story with some of the buddhist stories... and one thing I shudder at, is a meditation wherein to keep monks pure, they are taught to imagine women they see as rotting etc
Raffila Millgrove: omg are you serious Eliza?
Agatha Macbeth: Rotten lot
Bleu Oleander: oh my Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: buddhism has a lot of facets, but this kind of thing is in there in places too
Raffila Millgrove sighs.
Bruce Mowbray: Oh yes. I had a Buddhist monk living here at the farm a few years back who engaged in such visual images a lot.
Bleu Oleander: wow
Eliza Madrigal: it is extra strange to me, because in the same kind of line of teachings, there is a meditation to imagine every being as one's mother or having been every being's mother...
Raffila Millgrove: well Buddist ladies can never hope to be more than nuns.. they can never do any important priestly duties.
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: of course many guru abuse stories too
Eliza Madrigal: and in that, mothers are glamorized
Eliza Madrigal: sainted, in a sense
Bruce Mowbray: madonas, for sure.
Mickorod Renard: I was also wondering whether, should religion ever be outlawed, that either science or what could offer the same sort of tool for self reflection?
Bleu Oleander: some good, some bad in all religions
Eliza Madrigal: I would think both religion and science have been long smuggled into each other to an extent you can't decouple ?
Mickorod Renard: Its also fair to say that even God could not stop the free will from taking place,,this too is a microcosm of life
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: well religion/philosophy was really what science was back then before the enlightenment
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bleu Oleander: science as we understand it, is very young
Raffila Millgrove agrees.
Eliza Madrigal: true
Bleu Oleander: only several hundred years really
Bleu Oleander: but now coming fast and furious
Raffila Millgrove: I wonder if.. many millemiums from now.. where will science be. will mankind be recognizable?
Mickorod Renard: I know lots of people that feared their fathers or even spouses so much like fear of death, yet they still disobeyed them
Raffila Millgrove: as it is today? or will thing be so different that we could not understand it?
Bleu Oleander: probably religion is digging in against science at this time
Raffila Millgrove: if someone from the time before Jesus was born... say in China.. came back.. they could actually get a grip on things after awhile if they were very smart.
Raffila Millgrove: things like small farming are still around as they were at the time. there would be touchpoints.
Bleu Oleander: I think they would be shocked
Raffila Millgrove: well they would. but i think a really smart scholar could handle it eventually. with help.
Bruce Mowbray: Future Shock.
Raffila Millgrove: these Chinese scholars were incredibly smart.
Eliza Madrigal: I see hope only in the kind of path we're on, where we're at least trying to look from many angles and hold nothing to be inpenetrable
Eliza Madrigal: impenetrable*
Raffila Millgrove: and forward looking too. we never hear much about them.. but they were very cool.
Mickorod Renard: would we be better off had we stuck with the decadence of earlier roman traditions?..non Christian?
Bleu Oleander: agree Eliza
Raffila Millgrove: in China.. the only path one could take.. that would get you out of your caste/class.. was by taking the scholar exam. and passing....and... for 1000's of years, very smart men took that route.
Bleu Oleander: can't go back ... that's the one thing that probably saves us :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) good point
Raffila Millgrove: and they were kind of amazing as a group. what they knew.. what they passed along.. what they imagined for the future.
Agatha Macbeth: Monkey mind Brucie?
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Raffila Millgrove: so I think if one of them arrived in china now thru time travel they would be ok...... and i think if one of us.. not us personally went 2000 plus years ahead.. we could handle it maybe.
Mickorod Renard: I read the other day that as Humans, at least in the west, we are typically programmed to be disatisfied with status quo
Raffila Millgrove: like say Fenyman. he could do it.
Raffila Millgrove: di di spell that right?
Agatha Macbeth: Feynman
Bleu Oleander: :)
Agatha Macbeth: The man with the diagrams
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Raffila Millgrove: ok. well i am sending him. i gotta lot of faith in that guy. he had a wonderful sense of humor. he lived near me.
Eliza Madrigal: we need dozens of easy-articulators. I think pema is one
Agatha Macbeth: He was very dood
Agatha Macbeth: Good too
Raffila Millgrove: I am not sending Einstein unless we could have his wife go with him. he can't make it alone.
Agatha Macbeth: Sagan was the best tho
Eliza Madrigal: when someone is able to convey science in an easy way, it seems less threatening
Eliza Madrigal: Oh yes, Agatha
Bleu Oleander: there are many good articulators ... just have to seek them out
Raffila Millgrove: good choice Aggers.
Agatha Macbeth: I could listen to him all day
Eliza Madrigal: I think there are many, but ability to get through resistance or defensiveness is another thing
Raffila Millgrove: definetly he had that sense of wonder and that adventurer outlook.
Mickorod Renard: like Maxines book tho, they speak another lingo
Raffila Millgrove: oh i think the ones we mentioned can be very .. down to earth. that's why sense of humor is important.
Bleu Oleander: its a slow process and yet lightning fast at the same time
Eliza Madrigal nods... my base comparison is with family (of origin, not my kids)
Raffila Millgrove: maybe we can have Mark Twain drive. he was terrific at observing.

Bruce Mowbray: Thanks for bringing the paintings, Bleu. Time for me to scrape up supper