13-15 - Gaya's Pick

2009.08.13 01:00 - Buddha's Final Moments

• Either/both, no must there. It's voluntary.

2009.08.13 13:00 - Welcome and prayer

• C'mon, put them on. We must welcome him back in proper style.
• Ready!
• onigokko
• hahahahaahah
• haha
• :)
• lol . ty :o)
• stop
• :)
• Wow - I feel back at home now!!!

2009.08.13 19:00 - SL Nuns and Sex

• I have been thinking about the dual experience of on one hand, being here as pure presence and on the other hand, being conscious of appearance.
• Always interesting to see how we define ourselves by our choices :)
• Or how we are defined by others.
• So much of my life is trying to figure out what is real, what does this or that tell me about a person. Here it is almost ludicrous to try.
• I'm less interested in the visual aspect ... I'm really more interested in the phenomenon of meeting people across space and in real time who might share interests.
• But for many, the visual experience, including the aesthetic of it all, is very important in that interaction.
• I find it a bit distracting. I sort of wish we were all wearing black sacks. ha. Now, but really, I just find it all fascinating. humans and such.
• In part I am fascinated and exhilarated by the beauty of people here, but I find myself concerned when in our "open spontaneous mindedness of Play as being" nobody mentions it. If we take the 9 sec meditation (or the 90) and explore how thoughts come, my first most always is the sense of who is here mostly by appearance, then other kinds of thought come ... It is always for me the presence of others first. I suspect it is important for others as well, but rarely mentioned.
• Yes, I agree. That's why I said something. At first, I chided myself for not being lofty minded enough. That is why it took me a couple days to just mention the visual component. And even a certain social anxiety about it.
• I suspect all humans have that subtext running in the background to some degree some more than others.
• It's almost impossible to bypass, unless you don't have the power of sight ...
• Beauty has a lot of dimensions ... it touches all the senses and even on a deeper level it resides in our soul ... everyone is encompassed within it conceptually.
• But the interesting thing here is that we are in complete control of our physical manifestation here.
• In real life there is what we may call the Steven Hawking effect -- someone profoundly beautiful we may at first recoil from (if we do not know them) due to their appearance. SL seems to bypass that type of problem by letting a person exist behind a more or less chosen appearance.
• How do you think the sense of beauty affects our experience of SL or things in life offline?
• Well, worth exploring, here the beauty ties directly to the heart, but it is also erotic and requires constraint.
• Why does beauty require constraint?
• Not the beauty, the erotic response to it.
• Why do erotic responses require constraint? Would you say they should as a general rule?
• And balance.
• Why do they "require" this?
• For coordination.
• If she looks like this in real life, I'd make every effort to get closer. if she knows that and knows she doesn't look like that in real life, than I am insulting her.
• Well, I think perhaps you are referring to eroticism in this context, here at PaB.
• What assumptions are being made here about what erotic responses to beauty are all about?
• We came close to a first, a PaB discussion of sex -- at least I've never seen one here.
• I find this very restful and somehow comforting ... to be in presence but sort of not alone.
• I've hinted a number of times. nothing. We are supposed to drop all barriers so we can watch our thoughts. yet the most obvious to me is that people come here dressed to (kill is the conventional end of that phrase).
• Ah, I've got used to that at the other places I stop at in SL, about the dressing.
• I have brought much from SL to RL. More open, more curious, less inhibited, more relaxed.
• In terms of sex, I think it's worth noting that if we were all here on a summer's night, having deep conversations in RL, some people would end up having sex.
• Yes but which ones :)
• The night is young.
• lol

2009.08.14 01:00 - Silence

• Sitting alone and listening to birdsong.

2009.08.14 07:00 - Assumptions and the Unknown

• I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. (Oscar Wilde)
• I think that Man in creating God somewhat overestimates his ability.

2009.08.14 19:00 - Avatar appearance as a display of being

• How did you choose how you are now? At every point of choice more as you are? As you changed your appearance, what was going through your mind?
• I was thinking at first how interesting it was that I chose to be a dark haired, tan skinned woman first. Then, I was thinking about how odd it is to make my avatar resemble me at all and wondered if my ego was so strong that I needed to appear like myself even in other realities. Then, I guess I decided that if I could feel like 'myself' more when sitting in this circle, maybe I would feel less self-conscious.
• Hi Abigail.
• For me, when I arrive in the circle, I am most aware of who is where and how they look, and as I try to take that in I realize that the image I get say of Abigail triggers off things in me that Abigail was not intend ding, and I am missing what Abigail did intend. perhaps I am realizing that I pay more attention to appearances than I thought.
• It's hard to connect except thru appearances.
• Right but when the appearance is misleading, what kind of connection is possible? I find the connection I would make based on appearance is not quite what I would make based on the possible reality. Neither is "better", just really different - and that is an assumption hard to test here.
• Shows appearances is not what we think.
• Yet, I find our silences very bonding.
• Reality is kind of peer to peer avatar to avatar here. And genuineness can present here also.
• Yet I think the "appearance" here is a signal of genuine feelings or desires. Not always but often.
• It could be said that we are attached to a false appearance of ourselves (in first life). And that visualizing ourselves otherwise (or playing at it in SL) can be helpful in loosening that attachment.
• It can be helpful to approach spiritual matters with a new mind. Helps us see ourselves from a different angle.
• Yes but. Why do we fairly usually chose to look thinner and more attractive here rather than fatter and more dilapidated than we are?
• Good point. I tried the love-handle version of this avatar and was not having it.
• The more I think about it I don't think that matters. We begin to look past the appearance. I am the same person in my many manifestations yet I can be typed in any.
• Maybe it's like music - you want to make good music.
• Thanks. so it is not just a question of increased detachment.
• Well, I think it is interesting to note that we want to present ourselves in the best light.
• Or appearance is a way of shining.
• Well, it matters to me and that we talk about it so little gets in the way for me. I find the appearances intriguing and attracting and lead me to always question, who is really there and why are they making these choices?
• Have fun :)
• Do we get closer to what it is that doesn't change despite the various appearances?
• Given that almost all chose to be really attractive, to the point of. Well, if such folks were in RL I'd make a major effort to get closer to them ... so if it is just about detachment and objectivity and learning to discount appearance, why is it so important that people chose in the direction they do?
• Is it about detachment and discounting appearance?
• Who said it is important?
• It is important. if it were not, then appearances chosen would be more - what's a good word? Lacking aesthetic.
• It might change but right now it allows us to look past appearances at the real person.
• That to me is really an illusion. I am sure I could see the real you more if we were sitting like this in RL.
• We can then carry that into RL if we allow it to shatter our assumptions of beauty.
• I think here we reinforce our assumptions of beauty. Let's all try coming ugly, would it not be a different experience?
• Many do.
• Playing with appearance, playing with/as being. "Though he thinks he's in a play, he is anyway" (Penny Lane)
• /me wonders if there is a danger we could get attached to playing. That we are having so much fun we forget to listen or look. The playing is good for opening to others for me. I guess we need to remember to watch ourselves play.
• There's a fear that if we play, let go, it might get out of hand, crazy.
• We can play at many things, even at some of the things you mentioned, like caring for others and seeing truly.
• Even with that, with caring, we likely can be playful. The caring can become a trip.
• Caring has certainly come out of play for me.
• We can be serious and caring and playful in the same situation.
• We can share the in-between spaces.

2009.08.15 01:00 - Life & Death

• I think if one is afraid of death, one is also afraid of life?
• Yes, morbidity is a big form of going.
• Agree with you. Some seem to think putting off living will put off death too. Putting off living as in always planning to do things in some future time.
• It's sad ... life is passing them by I'm sure rather than being lived.
• Death is one of the most profound parts of life.
• A paradox of life is finding happiness in a world full of suffering ... fear is one of the great companions of suffering.
• Do you feel the universe is a meaningless expanse or do you feel that it is sentient?
• I think it is full of sentience, but mostly empty.
• I would say it is cognizant, knowing.
• /me shakes head. I don't know.
• Does your feeling about this bear on your feeling about death?
• Yes. I am satisfied that we don't disappear entirely ever.
• And how does that shape your feeling about death?
• Well, it doesn't really answer things. It just seems to be. But my feeling about death is affected by the sense of continuity.
• Does that comfort you--that feeling of continuity -- that hint of meaning ...
• Not entirely, but it kind of pushes nihilism out of the picture. Life and death are alike to me, in the sense that they are what you make of them.
• I think we have a fear of losing our sense of self, or personality, no matter what we feel reality is.
• I think the Buddhist notion of connection and a sense of sentience -- if you believe that, give one a feeling a peace ... that one is connected in a meaningful way to something larger than themselves ...
• If you could experience or be aware of that connection in life, maybe strengthen it and loosen the fear?
• 'Connected in a meaningful way' may be the value part.
• If you feel the universe is meaningless, how do you loosen the fear?
• "I don't know" doesn't imply meaningless though ...
• But if you feel the universe is meaningless, do you not also feel life is meaningless?
• That is important. But where does attachment come from? Is it the attempt to hold on to the meaning in life in the face of its absence?
• I got the sense that meaningful somehow implied happiness in this context.
• Because people don't think much about meaning of death? Hence my original questions, if fearful of death possibly so of life.
• Fear is close to suffering, certainly.
• If you fear death, you suffer ...
• If you fear emptiness you may be disappointed.

2009.08.15 07:00 - The Loneliness of The Loveliness

• There are times when I feel compelled to write something, and after the pause am so relieved to let it go.
• Sometimes my impulse to write is a king of impulse to possess, to hold on via the written word.
• kind* (but interesting slip, maybe an impulse which wants to be king)
• /me smiles nods vigorously at writing sometimes being a drive to possess or 'make something happen.
• For me, to possess whatever the feeling or experience I was having, so as not to let it go, or even to be able to savor it long after the event.
• And at times to get a hold of a thought ... try to 'make' oneself or another understand?
• Yes, yes, exactly! And it is the forcing ... the wish to be in charge or make it happen ...
• Yes like a contriving. This works in reverse too I think ... editing down too much for fear of looking/sounding silly or what have you.
• Yes, contrivance as in 'how will I look'.
• Yes to hold on a thought as if it was a discovery that should be presented to the world
• Ah, yes!!
• Oh, yes!
• Having an interesting experience this morning; looking forward to a meditative weekend, alone amidst some woods/cabin that I love; but feeling a little lonely this morning, perhaps a bit afraid to go into the loneliness of the loveliness and so looking forward to being with my friends here. It may seem strange to feel a little anxious on the verge of beauty, as if the awe makes me feel small, maybe not up to the task of the appreciation it deserves? May not be quite right ... but something close to feeling small in the face of ...
• Ahh, awe. Yes, that makes perfect sense. It expands our capacities I think... that fear/awe ... that 'fear' or awe in Presence ... it can be unstabling ... and facing that. In the midst of beauty, looking out to taking more in/appreciating ... seeing ... and that loneliness... makes me think of how one might approach God.
• Maybe opening ourselves up to beauty or prayer of God feels similar -- open, vulnerable and not sure what we will discover ... and the uncertainty brings a bit of anxiety.
• Vulnerability, yes ... a sense of setting out to 'uncover' and take in the beauty, in a sense?
• Yes, the uncovering may leave me feeling anxious.
• What do we cover with?
• What a question.

2009.08.15 13:00 - SL Appearance, Gardens and Weddings

• You've got interesting AVs :)
• Thanks:) I'm still looking for my SL identity. Haven't quite resolved it in RL yet either :)
• Me too :P It's funny how this makes you look at yourself.
• /me nods. Also helps discovering things about oneself ...
• That's for sure, sometimes strange things happen. For example, why is it that I just cannot decide to have a 'human' avatar?
• Perhaps you are expressing many different facets of yourself in your avs? Or should that be "presumably you are ..."
• I think it's very interesting to see what people chose to represent themselves in SL.
• In SL I wear strangest things, in RL I don't even have a tattoo.
• /me smiles and nods. Not yet, perhaps.
• So do chosen avatars usually represent desires?
• I don't know if it can be qualified as 'boring'... more like real vs unreal?
• I do think they represent sides of oneself.
• Even choosing to stick with default ones give a clue or two about RL person behind AVs. [not all the same reasons]
• In Cologne carnival it is said, that the costumes, which people choose, WOULD represent desires, "yes" ...
• Oh yes, carnival is a great example. In Renaissance Venice yearly carnival was used as an element of social catharsis (and I'm sure in other places it is similar). It was allowed to transgress otherwise fixed norms and identities to prevent social upheavals.
• I can definitely see how that can be, freedom to do things you wouldn't ordinarily do.
• Trying out different selves.
• /me nods. SL is really good for me that way because I grew up in a very strict family. Though I can't help people judging me for what kind of AVs or clothings I choose to wear. It's really playing for me that I value.
• Interesting. Cologne is the town in Germany with the biggest carnival tradition and psychologists say it would make more free and I can affirm that. It's a very helpful element ...
• It is also true on the whole, that your friends don't care and those who _do_ care would not be your friends anyway.
• But sometimes it is hard to separate people and their preconceptions.
• I think SL makes a start at though, in a way. By showing us that appearance truly is not reality.
• I am at a new level of unclarity about it. What lies behind people's choice of appearance, what they want to follow from those choices ... For me, as I've been saying, who is here and how they appear take precedence over other thoughts when I arrive. I have to push them aside to appear to be "meditating." But if the "meditating" is supposed to be free and spontaneous observation of how thoughts emerge ... then what others are doing here is different from what I am doing. And I don't believe it.
• What is "what others are doing here?" PaBing?
• What is there to believe or not believe?
• About appearance, spontaneity and openness

2009.08.15 19:00 - Title goes here

• In the broad context of PaB, is "WHY" a valid question? It assumes directed causality.
• Oh, as in why is ____ = a reason
• Or why did _____
• That sounds like a straw to grasp at.
• Why can also be a state?
• Why isn't the real question then can we assume causality or a reason for ____
• Correct or perhaps can we assume non-random causality. At each moment there can be many (infinite?) next moments that would "make sense" from which one occurs at random, perhaps? What we call causality could be random skips along probabilities.
• Causation and reason are simply morsels that pacify the mind's desire for finding significance.
• That's the question about answers: what satisfies you as an answer?
• Why do you need an answer?
• So I avoid being eaten.
• Survival.
• So we have answered why with uncertainty.
• The answer to Why -- I propose -- is to paraphrase Descartes and thus say, "I am, therefore I think."