2009.08.14 07:00 - Assumptions and the Unknown

The Guardian for this meeting was quen Oh. The comments are by quen Oh.

doug Sosa: morning.
Archmage Atlantis: morning
Archmage Atlantis: This is my 3rd time here, my first time on time.......we wait in silence for a Guardian?
doug Sosa: it is very free. we should have a guardian but don't need to hold back.
doug Sosa: I think some are at the SL meeting in SF
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey there
Archmage Atlantis: Hello Yakuzza
Yakuzza Lethecus: where are you from ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think I´ve even never seen you around here before
Archmage Atlantis: Metaphysically....or in SL
Archmage Atlantis: SW FLorida
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, right rl, germany here :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: sry bad internet
Archmage Atlantis: I didn't receive anything you said
Yakuzza Lethecus: can you paste what you got the last ?
Archmage Atlantis: hehe, right rl, germany here :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i said for example that i am also interested where you are in metaphysics
Yakuzza Lethecus: as a start for the session :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: it doesn´t show the last words like in IM´s
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: I admit I read your profile, I also have a longstanding interest in philosophy and psychology, as well as religion and art as communication
Archmage Atlantis: But not as careers, I was a business exec for a 'major corporation"...Whoo, whoo

That was what I had missed when I arrived after some country connection problems.. Also sophia joined the group.

Archmage Atlantis: Is psychology a vocation or an avocation for you Yakuzza, and please call me Arch
Yakuzza Lethecus: thx arch
Yakuzza Lethecus: i think it's more an avocation
Yakuzza Lethecus: only when i have to select between both
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello quen
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello sophia
madkrim Kimono: Hallloooo
quen Oh: hello Yakuzza, Archamge, madkrim, sophia
Archmage Atlantis: Getting here too late, and too early - neither works well
quen Oh: nice to see you, had huge problems logging in today, things are now very laggy for me
Archmage Atlantis: Hello, Quen. Hello Sophia.
quen Oh: so how are you? nice to see new faces here!
Archmage Atlantis: New here, not so much in RL
Archmage Atlantis: *chuckle*
quen Oh grins
Yakuzza Lethecus: so, psych is for me not only an avocation i try to keep interested in it and understand how it might explain variables in our lives and what we could do to maybe do things better :P, it's so statistical and unclear and i wouldn't say that psych is a vocation since i don't consider me as very elaborated in the field :P
Archmage Atlantis: Goodness, psych is statical to you.......
quen Oh: can't one have a vocation which is not very developed yet?
Archmage Atlantis: Certaingly Quen, true vocations arise from avocations I would venture to say
Archmage Atlantis: *certainly
quen Oh: what is it that fascinates you in psychology?
Archmage Atlantis: Do you ask me or Yak?
Yakuzza Lethecus: I am interested in the possiblitie to understand the own development better if the question was for me
Yakuzza Lethecus: for example reading about epistemologie is very abstract and the psychologists have at least some empirical data :P
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: The theory of knowledge
Archmage Atlantis: For me the most scientic branch is evolutionary psychology
quen Oh: both of you, curious to find what one searches in psychology
Archmage Atlantis: *scientific
Archmage Atlantis: I was tied to logic and reason as the arbitor of all things, backed by scientific method - until recently
Yakuzza Lethecus: i don't know so far how science really works, it's even a whole philosophy about that as well
Archmage Atlantis: It conflicted with my knowledge of mathematical theory, as there the assumptions determine where logic takes us
quen Oh: is the amount of empiric data determining the scientificness of something? or the amount of grasp we get on cause-and-effect related aspects of phenomena?..
Yakuzza Lethecus: it's getting so complicated there are popper,kuhn,ayer fayerabend
Archmage Atlantis: sorry Yak
Yakuzza Lethecus: why ?
Archmage Atlantis: what means "popper,kuhn,ayer fayerabend"
quen Oh: doesn't every assumption determine swhere our understanding is taking us?
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, that the field is so big and blurry and even ,,what science is" is very unclear for me
Archmage Atlantis: Yes of course quen
quen Oh: they are philosophers Archmage
Yakuzza Lethecus: there are logical positivists, empiricists
Archmage Atlantis: In all things, not just math
quen Oh nods
Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, right all those were philosophers
quen Oh: exactly Yakuzza
Yakuzza Lethecus: if that was ur question
Archmage Atlantis: to me, science is merely a method
Archmage Atlantis: information is gathered
quen Oh: every assumption determines what we understand and perceive, changing an assumption changes these
Archmage Atlantis: A proposal for how that information came to be is proposed
quen Oh: what is the scientific method to gather information for you Archmage?
Archmage Atlantis: And tested by new evidence gathered
Archmage Atlantis: Ah, even the validity of how the information was gathered is open to scientific inquiry
Archmage Atlantis: Hence, even 2 equally intelligent and informed scientists may disagree
quen Oh: the way we gather, perceive and interprete information is highly determined too by our assumptions, therefore some abstract rationality which questions and tries to make us more aware of our assumptions seems to go well together with science, no?
Archmage Atlantis: Well put Quen
Archmage Atlantis: But, we diverge from my answer to the original question
quen Oh: it seems conditional for good science to try and be more aware of our pre- and assumptions very well
quen Oh: let's go back Archmage ;-)
Archmage Atlantis: For me philosophy and psycholgy are the children of religion
quen Oh: in what way Archmage?
Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe for aquinas philosophy was the handmate of theologie :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: sry just flashed at the religion connection :)
quen Oh: this highly depends on what you understand by religion exactly
quen Oh: so I am curious very much, please explain further Archmage?
Archmage Atlantis: When a shaman, or a great religious thinker attempts to explain "reality" ( with apologies to SL) they employ some elements that were to become the 2 p's
quen Oh: never the other way around?
Archmage Atlantis: So there is a continuous line of human knowlege that goes back to shamic times.....
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: Modern brain function studies indicate that "music" then "art" were the first mechanisms, pre-writing to carry knowlege forward.......then story telling, then writing
quen Oh: for me religion deals with the relationship we as human, aware of our limited awareness have with the horizon of that awareness..
Archmage Atlantis: After all, aquinas is long dead, yet we can still discuss his thoughts
quen Oh: all are ways of expressing ourselves, Archmage, expression being the way to share meaning with each other, right?
Archmage Atlantis: As we as a species had developed writing
Archmage Atlantis: I would agree with that statment Quen
quen Oh: sharing meaning can fundamentally change our way of understanding our world
Archmage Atlantis: Also agree
quen Oh: the ways we share develope, look at us in SL here
Yakuzza Lethecus: but i would consider what i understand on philosophy outside of religion, the old greeks were pagan´s and even the church allowed to teach at least aristotle
Archmage Atlantis: And are lost from time to time. there was an attempt to gather all human knowledge at the library at Alexandria
Archmage Atlantis: It was quite succcessful, but was destroyed
quen Oh: being able to give meaning, in an imaginative, free, not only one-directioned way is human, it is what separates us from other species evolutionary, right?
Archmage Atlantis: As could be SL, or the internet
quen Oh: why Yakuzza is being pagan, being non-religious?
Yakuzza Lethecus: they had gods
Archmage Atlantis: I assume you mean other species here on earth, Quen
Yakuzza Lethecus: don´t you remember the old greek explaination for an electric discharge in the sky ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: zeus :)
quen Oh: one could understand religion as a shared type of relationship one forms with 'the limitation of our awareness', religion instutionalising this relation and sharing meaning
Archmage Atlantis: Yak, I would say they had explanations that they referred to and understood as gods, but yes
quen Oh: ;-) yes Archmage, I am not very knowledgeable about non-earthly species ...
quen Oh grins
Archmage Atlantis: We all shall soon enough face that challenge is my belief, Quen
quen Oh: but indeed, let's keep it 'simple' and concentrate on this planets' evolution
quen Oh: isn't god a concept to deal with the limitation of our awareness? a way to interprete our sense that there must be something where we know that we cannot see and know?
quen Oh: to which I am not closed Archmage, only difficult to involve in this topic perhaps?
Archmage Atlantis: Yak, even now while we know the mechanism for that electrical discharge, we do not know why that mechanism exists
Yakuzza Lethecus: because zeus send it
Yakuzza Lethecus: right i know ur on science right now :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: but it´s interesting how science fills in what was explained through god in the past
Yakuzza Lethecus: not only for the old greeks
Archmage Atlantis: Quen, do you believe that the current human brain can know all things with time
quen Oh: we know very little in the light of all the questions unanswered and even less when you contemplate all the questions unasked
quen Oh: well I don't 'belief' that, but I hold open the possibility certainly and I would very much welcome to learn some 'proof 'of that :-)
Archmage Atlantis: So, yes in that sense, God, Fate, or Luck, or whatever word one chooses serves as a storage box
Archmage Atlantis: For the unknown
quen Oh: grasping proof of that would hugely enlarge one's awareness for sure :-)
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: The problem we face is there are those who claim to have beentold how to carry out the wishes whatever lies in that box
quen Oh: well there is a huge difference in meaning and therefore in the possibilities of our relationship with the unknown when you compare those concepts Archmage... isn't there?
Archmage Atlantis: Ah, here you touch my personal "beliefs
Archmage Atlantis: Mine alone as they provide me comfort
Archmage Atlantis: I share sometimes if asked
Archmage Atlantis: but I do not evanglelize
quen Oh: well how wise is it to follow people who claim to have access behind what we ourselves can know... I always thought that when a god can communicate directly with one human and doesn't communicate with me, there is no reason to surrender ones own judgement...
Archmage Atlantis: As each entitiy is different, and this requires reaching e's own beliefs
Archmage Atlantis: e = entitiy, non-sexually identified
quen Oh: an omniscience that has wishes and cannot put it clear and plausible to every human being directly has never been very convincing to me, but well
Archmage Atlantis: A topic for another day
sophia Placebo: :)
sophia Placebo: i g2g , nice to meet you archmage
quen Oh: nice Archmage to have beliefs which provide you comfort
Archmage Atlantis: I like the Oscar Wilde quote*, Quen

(*in my profile: I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. (Oscar Wilde)

....I think that Man in creating God somewhat overestimates his ability.)

Meanwhile sophia has to go.

sophia Placebo: bye
Archmage Atlantis: Nice to me you too
Archmage Atlantis: Sophia
quen Oh: it is nicer contemplating metaphysics that bring us joy and hope than the more apocalyptical types ;-)
quen Oh: bye sophia
quen Oh: lol thank you Archmage
Archmage Atlantis: Well Yak, aything of value in this discussion?
Archmage Atlantis: I guess my curiosity will have to wait
Yakuzza Lethecus: i never know what i might take from a discussion :)
quen Oh: perhaps Yak, science tries to fill and make sense of the space before the horizon of what we can see, religion and metaphysics behind it; and philo only trying to make sense of how we make sense of things
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, i try to get a better picture of these fields
Archmage Atlantis: Then look at their gestalts, not their statistic
--BELL--
quen Oh: statistics give niformation too
Archmage Atlantis: I did not say ignore statistics

And the conversation switches to.... farming!

Yakuzza Lethecus: sry cellphone :(
Yakuzza Lethecus: we just got a few new pieces of cattle :P
Archmage Atlantis: But we often take them as the message
Archmage Atlantis: not the evidence
Archmage Atlantis: Cattle, what breed?
quen Oh: of this planet??
quen Oh grins
Yakuzza Lethecus: lol, on the pass stands xff(97) i google what that stands for :P
Archmage Atlantis: Organic, living?
Archmage Atlantis: Moo
Archmage Atlantis: Have coats of hair?
Yakuzza Lethecus: Kreuzung Fleischrind x Fleischrind 97 XFF
Archmage Atlantis: Do you farm, Yak
Archmage Atlantis: ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: my farther is a hobby farmer but he's on vacation
Yakuzza Lethecus: he's a learned butcher and was self employed for 25 years in that business
Archmage Atlantis: My Dad had a hobby farm in retirement
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, he's born on a farm and it's just a hobby for him
Archmage Atlantis: More vegetables, and 2.5 acres of sweet potatoes or watermelon, depending on the time of year
Archmage Atlantis: Yea, Dad grew up on a farm in NC
Yakuzza Lethecus: whats the word for a cattle farmer?
Archmage Atlantis: 9 brothers and sisters
Archmage Atlantis: rancher
Archmage Atlantis: is one
Yakuzza Lethecus: lol, hobbyrancher :P
Archmage Atlantis: Cattlefarmer works
quen Oh smiles
quen Oh: am now visiting my parents, who live on an former farm too, but no cattle nor vegetables, they just mown the grass
Archmage Atlantis: Well I have to go look up some cattle breeds, I'm obviously behind
quen Oh: and have 2 dogs
quen Oh grins
quen Oh: I have to go too, nice meeting you both Yakuzza and Archmage!
Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, it was interesting
Archmage Atlantis: And I have a 16 yo benal cat who is sitting in front of the screen blocking my view because it is warm there, ay cabamba
Yakuzza Lethecus: hihi :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: good bye you both
quen Oh: haha
quen Oh: well, hope to meet both again, bye!
Archmage Atlantis: later guys, it's been wonderful, Blessings to both ofyou