10-12 Tell Me A Story

December 10 - 12, 2009.  This scribe log is by Calvino Rabeni.

As a new PAB scribe, I find it a little weird to review / edit dialogues that included me as one of the participants.  I try not to go all postmodern and self-referential, and turn back a bit to the more traditional mode - and I think, more effective one, of storytelling. 

So here's the story...

A group of fairly intrepid explorers gathers in a circle at regular intervals with no set agenda, and engage in an age-old activity - telling stories.

In this case the circle is the Play As Being pavilion, and at this time of year it has a ring of virtual ice around it, and beyond that, the safe, smooth horizon of a virtual world.

The surround is pretty predictable and familiar by now, although on occasion, there have been surreal and unexpected virtual appearances taking place at the Pavillion.  I'm visualizing, however, the effect of switching the virtual crystal pool with a virtual campfire, and trading the arctic-light twilight of Second Life for some real darkness.  Darkness that would make these avatars huddle a little closer, and think twice about stumbling out into the unknown.

But as it happens, the darkness is the unknown factors of each avatar's life and circumstances relative to the others.  The light is the bright circle of the Play As Being discussion and the glowing text and avatars found there four times daily.

2009.12.10 01:00 - Food for Thought

The late-night slot (relative to SL, that is) is sometimes quiet, sometimes turns into a long wide-ranging discussion, and often has a kind of "off duty" feeling, in that the 90-second pause is gaily disregarded.  I'm not sure why that is, exactly, because it's only really 1AM in the USA Pacific Time zone.

We've been talking customs, culture, politics, economics, philosophy, ecology, language, habits... no one's said anything about Being :)

It's interesting how many of the above topics have to do, in one way or another, with food.  Some say we're all part of a great chain of being in which everything eats and is, in turn, eaten.  So it looks like we're exploring Being after all.

Of course, the above topics are interesting in themselves - click on the link for more.

2009.12.10 07:00 - Lonely mountain sunrise

In which an intrepid Guardian finds his watch uninterrupted by other sentient beings, and has opportunity to keep his own counsel.

 

2009.12.10 13:00 - feeling no-time?

It begins with a story of a strange teleportation - if your viewer or sim crash, you can end up who knows where.  We kind of relish the breakdowns in an artificial world.

Then out of the blue comes a "beginner's mind" question - among the very best type of question, according to local customs:

Lia Rikugun: I may have a question
Agatha Macbeth: We may have an answer
Bertram Jacobus: please, ask lia !
Lia Rikugun: :) I hope so

how do I feel no-time?

Lia Rikugun: I was thinking about time today
Lia Rikugun: and trying to feel no-time
Lia Rikugun: to lose the sense of linearity

The group kicks this idea around for a while.  Where to go, how to do it, what's it like metaphorically.

how can we shift our experience of time?

Calvino Rabeni: A question is, what can you do that shifts your experience of time in some way?
Lia Rikugun: hm, you could see everything as appearances :)

The "Bell" provides an opportunity for first-hand experience.  I am wondering if anyone will venture to describe things directly, subject to cross-examination - "So, Mr. Rabeni, you say that on the afternoon of 2009/12/10 you claim to have had a direct experience of No Time.  Can you describe for the jury precisely what transpired?"

Not today, I'm afraid.  But we have a lot of supporting testimony from guest witnesses:

• Floating in the ocean puts in an appearance.
• The idea of going where nothing is happening puts in an appearance.
• Phenomenology puts in an appearance.
  
• Battling samurai and Wild West gunslingers put in an appearance.

Alfred Kelberry: the funny thing about pheno, it starts like a scientific method, but ends up with the world the opponent :)

Note to self - got to watch that, Grasshopper.  Opponent can chop off head with samurai sword.

Wol Euler: Calvino reminded me of one of my favourite films, The Yakuza; I'd been reading the wikipedia article about it
Agatha Macbeth: Japanese mafia, yes?
Alfred Kelberry: i mean, the movie
Wol Euler: yes, and no
Wol Euler: it's a Western :)
Agatha Macbeth: Most of them are....
Wol Euler: in that it addresses the Western themes of duty and honour and comradeship.

That could have been a juicy topic after "no-time", but unfortunately, there was no time for it.

2009.12.10 19:00

 

2009.12.11 01:00 - Nothing Happens

... Another lone guardian bearing witness.  I am fairly sure your own experience of nothing happening would be more of a thrill to you, than reading the contents of the above session.

 

2009.12.11 07:00 - Appreciating Hajj (A Bedtime Story)

Eliza Madrigal: Well, what were you thinking about today? That might help...
Pema Pera: oh, let's see, differential equations, uhh, . . . .
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, I definitely do not have differential equation stories...
Pema Pera: . . . how pleasant the rain sounded on my umbrella . . .

... That was fresh to hear about, Pema, and I can easily imagine there were little bits of "no time" between the individual droplets of rain.

doug Sosa: yes, i've really taken the 9 sec as a kind of rabbits foot i can stroke at any time.
Pema Pera: I have a quote from 2009/11/30 7 pm:
Pema Pera: doug Sosa: i am in an intense converation withtwo othrs. try the 9 sec. suddenly it is not me and two of them, it is three of us.
Pema Pera: that is nothing less that Being Seeing !

 ...  I knew this 9-second thing would come in handy at some point!

Then we get a Topic Of Substance:

Pema asks Sophia what she's been up to, which leads us into the rest of this session...

Pema Pera: Sophia, it's good to see you again! How have you been?
Eliza Madrigal: And if you walk through the piles, the snow scatters about :)
sophia Placebo: good to see you too , im still alive thankfully
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Pema Pera smiles too
Pema Pera: did you travel for a while?
sophia Placebo: :) i went to Hajj hmm 10 days in mekka
Pema Pera: that must have been an extraordinary experience!
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, will you tell us about it, Sophia?
sophia Placebo: on all levels
sophia Placebo: oh Eliza you need to be there to feel it right

... (some very physically evocative descriptions of the event itself) ...

sophia Placebo: yep so it is a spiritual journey that is represented or acted physically in short

The rest of the session involved what seemed to me, a kind of inter-religious dialogue that I found poignant and thought-provoking, perhaps motivating.

 

2009.12.11 13:00 - long friday session

As the title suggests, this was a long session.  And also "smooth" in quality, moving back and forth between light and deep topics with a feeling of flow.  I've excerpted a lot from that session here.

I notice how themes are often carried between sessions.  This appears to be aided by metaphors:

     "Let's talk about 'no-time' again!' <-- somewhat unlikely.

     "Hey, how about those samurai and cowboys!" <-- more likely.

What makes a good retreat?  (Answer - mountains).  What is the definition of a mountain? (Answer - something that affords remoteness, a grand perspective, a change in feeling).

There's a curious remark about "Jewish buddhism"- which I think is common and am interested to hear more about; a discussion of the point of view of tourists versus locals; remarks on the purpose and value of travel; discussion of the age (and presumably, experience) of avatars; and then one popular idea:

Exploring reality in Second Life with intelligent people beats TV seven ways to Sunday!

... with Wol providing articulate arguments and facts to back the sentiment.

And then a recipe that involves putting a shot of whiskey in the microwave (don't try this at home);  some remarks on the ephemeral nature of "friendship" in Second Life, along with its actual RL value:

Agatha Macbeth: We're an antisocial lot at heart, i guess
Wol Euler: a different definition of sociality, rather.
Wol Euler: and it rubs off into RL.
Wol Euler: I've become much more adept at talking to strangers since being in SL
Wol Euler: and can report that almost everyone has been delighted to be talked to.

... skeptics, take that!

 A newcomer arrives to shake things up a bit:

Wol Euler: basically we are a meditation group, we meeet here to discuss our practices and matters arising from them
pablito Steampunk: hehe, yes this is the problem with the information age
pablito Steampunk: too much INFORMATION!!
Agatha Macbeth: Hence the name :)
pablito Steampunk: hehe
Wol Euler: I have to ask: We record these meetings (this is the tail end of the 1pm meeting btw)
pablito Steampunk: we should change it to
Wol Euler: and we publish them on our website. May we have your permission to include your name adn comments in the published record?
pablito Steampunk: TOO MUCH INFORMATION AGE

... and gets right down to business:

pablito Steampunk: how do you become a guardian?
Wol Euler: basically by hanging around, fitting the group, taking part in conversation in a way that fits
Wol Euler: and then being invited to join.
Agatha Macbeth: Best o' luck!
pablito Steampunk: i see
pablito Steampunk: so its down to conversational contributions
pablito Steampunk: and frquency of those contributions
Agatha Macbeth: I'm buggered then :)

Soon the soft spot emerges:

pablito Steampunk: ever been to Hikari?
Wol Euler: "god gave us two ears and one mouth so that we could hear twice as much as we say"
Wol Euler: yes, I know it well.
Agatha Macbeth: And that from an atheist! :)
pablito Steampunk: that is my favourite sim so far
Qt Core: read the name in several profiles, never been there
pablito Steampunk: so peaceful and beautiful
--BELL--
Agatha Macbeth: Mieum is really nice too
Wol Euler: it's Moon's sim, most of the building and landscaping is his work
pablito Steampunk: and the guy who owns it is so nice

 Followed by a more balanced blend of Yin and Yang:

Agatha Macbeth: Captain Teddy Bear
Agatha Macbeth: Fire all phasers Rupert!

Avatars use "/me" to speak of themselves in the third person; in this case using an internet-age term for Beginner's Mind, or in samurai argot, shoshin:

Eliza Madrigal is an eternal noob

Light banter continues for a while, and then effortlessly shifts to the more thoughtful and poignant.  Perhaps still on the theme of balance, Eliza recalls a previous session and shows how these influences can linger, becoming part of the simmering cauldron of one's background thoughts:

Eliza Madrigal: Wol said something the other day that knocked me right off my chair.... about sensitivity I think... one moment....
pablito Steampunk: looking forward to this..
Agatha Macbeth: Drum roll.....
Eliza Madrigal: Somehow it was a tremendous comfort...
SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles
Eliza Madrigal: here I found it:
Eliza Madrigal: Eliza Madrigal: that's something that keeps coming up... balancing intensity of focus, with lightness...both Wol Euler thinks of watching children playing. They are very serious, intent, utterly immersed in what they're doing, and enjoying it, Geoff Baily: ;) Maxine Walden: perhaps we could watch ourselves lightly during the next pause, sort of as Wol has suggested... Alfred Kelberry: wol, well, a broken house from cubes is a tradegy to them :) Geoff Baily: ok Wol Euler: perhaps they're right, alf; perhaps it is, and it's a weakness in us that we don't cry with them over it.
Agatha Macbeth: Mm
Eliza Madrigal: I don't know... maybe just me but I found that incredibly moving... have thought about it so much

The cauldron is slowly cooking the Yin and Yang ingredients:

pablito Steampunk: when you say soft, do you mean passive?
SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm
Agatha Macbeth: Or receptive?
pablito Steampunk: yes
Eliza Madrigal: funny this comes up a few times over the last few days... maybe holiday season is more sad for some
SophiaSharon Larnia: a bit of both, really, ill have to think about that thanks
Agatha Macbeth: Well that's me all over
Eliza Madrigal: receptive Agatha?
Agatha Macbeth: Yes, too much sometimes :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: seeing what is.... not ascribing my personal judgement on it
pablito Steampunk: well, whats the difference between being passive and receptive?
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe there isn't a difference?
Eliza Madrigal: Hm... passive/receptive are fine qualities...maybe it is just about feeling imbalance...
Agatha Macbeth: Imbalance?
Eliza Madrigal: that there is an ebb and flow... time for each and perhaps harmony hides sometimes
SophiaSharon Larnia: passive to me means helplessness, even if its temporary, or illusory
Eliza Madrigal: Ah
SophiaSharon Larnia: receptive to me feels more'seeing' accepting'
Eliza Madrigal: receptive as in open... which may not be weak...

SophiaSharon Larnia: much stength needed to be open
Agatha Macbeth: Yes
Agatha Macbeth: Courage too
Eliza Madrigal nods
pablito Steampunk: being passive is taking things in but not as consciously as being in a receptive state?
Eliza Madrigal: pablito, yes, interesting angle
Eliza Madrigal: And just taking things in means they will perhaps not be faced.. acted on, etc...
pablito Steampunk: its like your in the fully awakened state, and taking nthe data in, processing it
SophiaSharon Larnia: watching a play vs being in the play
Eliza Madrigal: so becomes shadow land... whereas receptivity allows yes... processing.. engaging, appreciation
pablito Steampunk: or even worst
Eliza Madrigal: YES Sharon.... nods vigorously

The cauldron simmers for a while yet, turning briefly to playful themes of building things in SL, before turning back to deeper topics, in particular, depth itself, in literature and group process:

pablito Steampunk: most eastern literature is dense
Eliza Madrigal nods...layered
pablito Steampunk: yes, very layered
Eliza Madrigal: There are wonderful lines in the Tao... and some ideas PaB dwells on...
Eliza Madrigal: like wu wei...
pablito Steampunk: you can read just one analect and be totally overwhelmed by it
pablito Steampunk: wu wei yes
pablito Steampunk: remind me
pablito Steampunk: i remember Alan watts writing about that
Eliza Madrigal: Well its funny for me to summarize... but my understanding right this moment is of a non-effort 'state' in which everything arises completely....
Eliza Madrigal: or maybe place would be a better word than state...
pablito Steampunk: yes
Eliza Madrigal: and we've had conversations about whether it is possible to work that way as a group... allowing Being to operate, in a sense....
pablito Steampunk: nice

And the session still won't stop!  Another jewel is a metaphor about reality as a special type of jewel:

Eliza Madrigal: Here from wiki: Indra's net symbolizes a universe where infinitely repeated mutual relations exist between all members of the universe.[5] This idea is communicated in the image of the interconnectedness of the universe as seen in the net of the Vedic god Indra, whose net hangs over his palace on Mount Meru, the axis mundi of Vedic cosmology and Vedic mythology. Indra's net has a multifaceted jewel at each vertex, and each jewel is reflected in all of the other jewels:[6]
pablito Steampunk: ah yes nice
Eliza Madrigal: So the jewels would be holographic ... in a sense... each resonating in all
Eliza Madrigal: and visa versa
pablito Steampunk: yes, and its all intereconnected
pablito Steampunk: like a net
Eliza Madrigal: :)

I liked the sense of challenge in the following (whether or not it was intended) - it reminded me of a line from a samurai movie:

pablito Steampunk: i like zen
pablito Steampunk: because it is so simple
Eliza Madrigal: think so?

Eliza effectively uses SL and the Web together as a form of contemplative media, using the venerable Finger Pointing At The Moon technique:

Eliza Madrigal: I want to give you a link to a recent session on one of my favorite topics here... since you're coming back especially... YS_BS_and_ES

 

2009.12.11 19:00 - The Limits of Empiricism

A two person session.  These dialogues often afford good focus for a more in-depth discussion of a particular issue.  In this one, I really enjoyed getting on the hobby horse and playing amateur philosopher.  I was delighted to find an informed dialogue companion for that activity.

Having attended the Kira Phenomenology Workshop a couple times, Calvino launches into a foolhardy critique of phenomenology, hoping the semi-ironic tone comes through:

genesis Zhangsun: so what has been said about epoche?
Calvino Rabeni: We're not quite there yet - this stage is kind of hygenic.
Calvino Rabeni: You have to wash your mind of having concepts, in order to start with things in pheno
genesis Zhangsun: in what way :)
genesis Zhangsun: ah okay
Calvino Rabeni: You look around for a chair, and then pretend you don't really know what it is.
Calvino Rabeni: :)
genesis Zhangsun: lol and in your opinion how succesful has the cleansing been?
Calvino Rabeni: I consider it an impossibility from the start
Calvino Rabeni: However it is worth a try.

genesis aids and abets this endeavor, although not without what seemed a proper degree of pragmatism:

Calvino Rabeni: A lot of meditation has an idea of "bare awareness" in it.
Calvino Rabeni: And as a step towards it advise to cultivate the ability to take a stance of observation of thoughts and impressions
genesis Zhangsun: and have you yourself experienced this type of "bare awareness"

They kick around phenomenology and perhaps tease it apart from the idea of empiricism; meanwhile referencing the "H-name" philosophers (Hegel, Husserl, Heidegger, now Haiku).

genesis Zhangsun: and you think empiricism is too narrow?
genesis Zhangsun: it leaves no room for...
Calvino Rabeni: which kind of casts doubt on whether pheno really strays very far from cartesianism
Calvino Rabeni: If you separate subject from object - even if the object is "phenomena" - you still have a detached, separate subject
genesis Zhangsun: ah I see so because it is limited to experience of the senses it leaves no room a reality beyond the senses
Calvino Rabeni: and I think a lot of the critique of cartesianism was about that
genesis Zhangsun: yes I think we are in agreement about that

Understandably, the discussion winds around to the parallels between pheno and meditation, and the way that theory and practice come together in people who practice what they preach:

genesis Zhangsun: perhaps this is why meditation is really about practice not about describing reality merely through words
Calvino Rabeni: In fact, I had a teacher who did this
genesis Zhangsun: yes there are some "realized" people out there
genesis Zhangsun: not necessarily "enlightened" but certainly "realized"
genesis Zhangsun: I think Rota- the lectures I am reading on pheno
genesis Zhangsun: I read his words and I see someone who is speaking beyond words
genesis Zhangsun: and knows it
genesis Zhangsun: and is attempting to describe exactly how he is doing it
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the good communicators are speaking way past the words
Calvino Rabeni: They could say "cream puff" and it would mean the right thing
genesis Zhangsun: yes but few people can actually describe how they do it
Calvino Rabeni: That is really true, the precision is there also
genesis Zhangsun: Heidegger understood I think this idea of going beyond language- he wrote a book I very much enjoyed on the subject- On the Way to Language

genesisZhangsun: interesting conversation Calvino

genesis Zhangsun: I have to get going
genesis Zhangsun: perhaps we can pick up here?
Calvino Rabeni: :) yes, any time.

 

2009.12.12 01:00 - Theories of everything

The session started out with a discussion of the philosophy of Biocentrism.

Gaya is represented by a flat, pixellated "cat" icon, like an early 16 by 16 video game sprite.  Only the one pixel tip of the tail moves, back and forth, but it seems to animate the entire "cat." 

A new person shows up.  They go through the "we record the chat - is that all right with you" protocol, a kind of ritual.  One of the regular attendees lends a helping hand:

Archmage Atlantis: Ryker, this is a good group, and a good place to explore philosophy and the meaning of life...it does center around a practice, ....the note Scathach gave you should give a good idea
Ryker Foxclaw: yes, i got lost in the second paragraph
Ryker Foxclaw: i read it all thoug

...

--BELL--
Ryker Foxclaw: what's with the silence?
Scathach Rhiadra: a time-out sort of, to just stop and be:)
Bertram Jacobus: it´s a idea to experience being without any clinging ...
Ryker Foxclaw: Ok

...

Zon Quar: yes.. all theories are just theories
Ryker Foxclaw: yes, but we must have opinions about them
Bertram Jacobus: oh. i think, it could even be boaring (!) - sorry : so simple, so easy - or unnessecarily

Ryker Foxclaw: christianity?
Ryker Foxclaw: is that one?
Bertram Jacobus: nice
Bertram Jacobus: yes
Zon Quar: yes
Bertram Jacobus: i guess so
Ryker Foxclaw: oh cool. phew
Zon Quar: u like that most ?
Ryker Foxclaw: yes
Zon Quar: i like most the indian thoughts
Ryker Foxclaw: how about you guys
Ryker Foxclaw: like hedonism?
 ...

--BELL--
Ryker Foxclaw: thank goodness for that silence, i can go to the bathroom
Zon Quar: freedom from authorities ..direct experience.. attitude of ecploring
Bertram Jacobus: :-)
Zon Quar: exploring urself
Ryker Foxclaw: i see
Zon Quar: kind of scientific attitude...
Bertram Jacobus: i find it interesting : in this group, my impression is, always new people bring the most fresh wind ...
Zon Quar: yes
Zon Quar: and different views
Bertram Jacobus: openness !
Ryker Foxclaw: i have never been to this kind of sim before
Ryker Foxclaw: i am grateful for the welcoming atmosphere and at the same time nervous
Bertram Jacobus: but i appreciate your contributions very much ryker
Ryker Foxclaw: and i appreciate your encouragement, both of you

2009.12.12 07:00

 

2009.12.12 13:00 - Living is Creating all the time

The notion of creativity and flow have come up in several recent sessions.  In this one we discuss the concept - and experience - of flow, starting with whether SL itself provided opportunity for a creative practice with "flow".

Calvino Rabeni: The end result could express some creativity - some people have done wonderful art in SL
Calvino Rabeni: but I miss the ease of immediacy and embodiment
Calvino Rabeni: Embodiment
Calvino Rabeni: My creative moments are in the planning and imagining, but when I go to do the building and scripting, it just seems like work
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
SophiaSharon Larnia: the grounding bit I hadnt considered... the actual work part does that for me
Liza Deischer: I still imagine when Im building
Calvino Rabeni: Which is why I am getting more attracted to oral arts - like spoken word - because the doing and being are together
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
Liza Deischer: I play piano
Liza Deischer: that includes a lot of layers
SophiaSharon Larnia: nice :)
Liza Deischer: from conentratrion, embodiment
Liza Deischer: different kinds of memories
Liza Deischer: my whole body antipates

Whether that last word was supposed to be "anticipates" or "participates" - it seems true that in the experience of flow, those become one and the same:

     Play As Being coins a new word in the lexicon of conscious experience!

We move on towards examining creativity from a transpersonal perspective:

Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes it is nice for an alternative to present itself forcefully, almost
Liza Deischer: yes, i agree

--BELL--

SophiaSharon Larnia: can you say more about an alternative presenting itself forcefully Calvino?
Calvino Rabeni: It feels like, we don't really control creativity
Calvino Rabeni: OK
Calvino Rabeni: an alternative might seem like an idea, like - "I know I could do better, or differently"
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes ive been inspired at the 'worst' times, when in the middle of something :)
Calvino Rabeni: but sometimes it seems to come from outside oneself
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Calvino Rabeni: and it might be a creative impulse that seems "not me"
Calvino Rabeni: There are lots of myths, of course
Calvino Rabeni: Muses for example
Calvino Rabeni: But as modern people we can also give that some credit
Calvino Rabeni: And not feel all the time completely responsible for what happens
Calvino Rabeni: in the creativity department
SophiaSharon Larnia: the devil made me do it
Calvino Rabeni: Does this make sense ?
SophiaSharon Larnia: oh yes definately makes sense
Calvino Rabeni: A benign spirit, not necessarily a devil
SophiaSharon Larnia: sorry sometimes creativity comes out of nowhere, like a flash, no not like a devil
Liza Deischer: the 'not me' I do understand, I think
Calvino Rabeni: It could come from other people
Calvino Rabeni: Even if they think they are saying something different
Liza Deischer: but to me, that is like all the parts of me, the consious and unconsious one are somehow working together
Calvino Rabeni: That seems like a valid idea to me too
Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes, according to one theory, people "dream up" something for others around them
SophiaSharon Larnia: that feels like the basis of the matter actually

 ...

Calvino Rabeni: I don't think I've ever had a dlalogue before about this - inner sense of discrimination
Calvino Rabeni: Do people have an inner compass?
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes i think so
Calvino Rabeni: As in, how to know when going the right direction
Calvino Rabeni: since it isn't defined by externals and objects

...

Calvino Rabeni: You start in one direction, and it appears to be right
SophiaSharon Larnia: an inner compass to me is emotional, if something feels right... but this is judgemental in a way
Calvino Rabeni: later going in the same appearent direction, doing the same thing, it is no longer right
Calvino Rabeni: something important has changed, without noticing it

--BELL--

Liza Deischer: I think context is imported here

Not sure if that was "imported" or "important", although both would work.

SophiaSharon Larnia: very ephemeral
Liza Deischer: I think then when you take an action...
Liza Deischer: of anykind....
Liza Deischer: you influence yourself and/or your surroundings....
Liza Deischer: so you change the context....
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes an ongoing process
Liza Deischer: which means you cant do the same thing twice....
Liza Deischer: and expect it to work again
Liza Deischer: yes
Calvino Rabeni: never exactly the same again
Calvino Rabeni: true action can't be made mechanical I would say
Liza Deischer: I certainly realise that this is for me one of the most intriguing and interesting thing about life
SophiaSharon Larnia: that's what creativity feel like to me, never the same
Liza Deischer: exactly
Liza Deischer: thank you for making me realise
Liza Deischer: it can't be mechanical, I agree
Calvino Rabeni: it is a subtle thing, following a delicate thread
Liza Deischer: life requires movement
Calvino Rabeni: in a way, continually re-created
Liza Deischer: true, I think
Calvino Rabeni: that is creativity, in a microscopic way
Liza Deischer: yes, you could say living is creating all the time :)
Liza Deischer: nice
Calvino Rabeni: It reminded me of a poem I heard

The Way It Is - By William Stafford

There's a thread you follow. It goes among

things that change. But it doesn't change.

People wonder about what you are pursuing.

You have to explain about the thread.

But it is hard for others to see.

While you hold it you can't get lost.

Tragedies happen; people get hurt

or die; and you suffer and get old.

Nothing you do can stop time's unfolding.

You don't ever let go of the thread.

SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Liza Deischer: like the poem
SophiaSharon Larnia: I have to log off, nice talking to you :)

 

2009.12.12 19:00 - Flow2009.12.12 19:00 - Flow

This was another long session - over two hours.  Some themes have legs in PAB.  This session has the same themes as the previous one, although with mostly different people.  The theme of flow, flows on.  Creativity creates itself anew.  I really like the way Eden initiates this one:

Eden Haiku: Went floating on this beautiful stream at Kuan Yin Terraces.
Eden Haiku: Why don't we talk about flow?
Pema Pera: please do, Eden :)
Eden Haiku: Hum hum... coughing..
Eden Haiku: Wondering what she could say about flow...
Eden Haiku: her mind completely blank...
Eliza Madrigal thinks of the man with the long name who wrote the book "Flow"...
Eden Haiku: Yes Michalealy something
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
Eden Haiku: Hungarian I think.
Eden Haiku: You understand flow when you have a name like that, you have to.
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Pema Pera: hahaha
Eliza Madrigal: Yes imagine the patience needed when signing things... or spelling for others...
Eden Haiku: I remember reading it and living by it for a while.
Eden Haiku: yes, that is so true Eliza!
Eden Haiku: That is one of the books I kept when I moved.
--BELL--

Pema Pera: btw, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi is the name none of us could remember, not surprisingly . .
Eliza Madrigal: I had his "creativity" for the longest time... I was interested in alternative education then, and in the idea of radical unschooling... though never brave enough to raise my kids that way :)

SophiaSharon Larnia: like Calvino was saying earlier today, you can feel it when it happens, and when you are out of sync
Eden Haiku: Yes, both, that is true.
Pema Pera: it seems similar to the idea of being "natural" in Taoism
Pema Pera: responding to the situation in the most natural way, without doing/forcing, wu-wei
Eden Haiku: Yes, natural.
Pema Pera: and it is interesting that "natural" is translated into a term indicating motion
Pema Pera: like not getting stuck in any particular situation or pattern

As it may happen, however, the discussion was suspected of doing just that.  Luckily PAB has a secret weapon for use in that circumstance:

Fox Monacular: onigokko
SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles
Eliza Madrigal laughs
--BELL--

We briefly discussed the Five Rhythms Dance practices of Gabrielle Roth, which is an experiential discipline exploring the felt dimensions of embodied movement.  Naturally there is more on the menu than "flow" and "sit there like a lump":

Eden Haiku: Rhythms. My friend was a dancer and she taught rythms.
Eden Haiku: And stillness was one of them.
Eden Haiku: Strong and flowing.
Calvino Rabeni: 5 rhythms ?
Eden Haiku: Staccato.
Eden Haiku: Chaos.
Eden Haiku: Light and Lyrical
Eden Haiku: And stillness

Pema and Eden took some time to do the important "work" of PAB, that is, playing host to new or infrequent visitors. 

Then we turned to an important practical matter - whether the "9-second pause" approach is useful in "real life":

Fox Monacular: it's interesting: my life's so chaotic right now, that I welcome the 9 sec breaks but also I'm intimidated by them
Eliza Madrigal: intimidated?
Pema Pera: in what way, Fox?

Fox Monacular: like I get a glimpse of something that I know I cannot explore quite yet
Fox Monacular: often simply because of time constraints
Pema Pera: glimpses are our guides
Fox Monacular: but also because I am not ready yet
Fox Monacular: I recognize it when someone speaks of it, but am hesitant to go there myself
SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
Calvino Rabeni: short of going out the door, i can open the window and let in fresh air
Eliza Madrigal: Calvino, Hm, yes :)
Fox Monacular: yes, I do that too:)
Calvino Rabeni: 9 second ventilation fore a refreshing feeling
Calvino Rabeni: too bad I can't can it
Pema Pera: :)

Pema left, and the discussion forged ahead.  Your scribe learns a new bit of PAB tradition.

Eliza Madrigal: I have been trying to take notes for apapb... but truly... these excercizes have become so a part of everything/me, I guess.... that it can be tricky...
Eliza Madrigal: I often can't tell the diff. between apapb and ysbs
SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm
Eliza Madrigal: and that's quite new, actually...
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: what is apapb - new to me
Eliza Madrigal: like it takes me over, rather than my instigating
Eliza Madrigal: appreciating the presence of appearances as a presentation of/by Being...
SophiaSharon Larnia: Appreciate the presence of appearance as a presentation by Being
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: This helps with the phenom, too, Cal...
Calvino Rabeni: I understand, thanks.
SophiaSharon Larnia: appreciating.... you seeing, being seeing hmmmm
Eliza Madrigal: Being presenting... and appreciating, unfolding "everything" given...
Calvino Rabeni: Is there a glossary somewhere ? :)

There wasn't then, but one shortly appeared, thanks to the modern wonder of "wiki" (meaning "quick!").

A couple of quasi-religious topics followed.  I think it best to avoid the easy, traditional words, but hope to import the essential idea into the "normal attitude" (thereby changing it).

The such first topic had to do with the possible personhood or subective dimension of reality.

Calvino Rabeni: I am interested in another angle on it
Calvino Rabeni: Which is seeing reality as person - as Thou rather than It.
Calvino Rabeni: Do you think this line of inquiry could be compatible with PAB?
Eliza Madrigal: This actually does have a little glossary, but not long definitions or background
Calvino Rabeni: Because I realize it brings in some religious sensibilities
Eliza Madrigal: Hm..interesting question Cal
Calvino Rabeni: And wonder if it can be addressed outside the religious frameworks
Eliza Madrigal: Well, let's see....
Calvino Rabeni: This comes form a conversation earlier with a RL friend
Eliza Madrigal: Dropping religious frameworks, Being does surprise... definitely like a person
SophiaSharon Larnia: interesting, i dont see being as thou, but as a something i am a piece of, only seperated by an ego
SophiaSharon Larnia: in theory, it is what i feel
Eliza Madrigal: well, we relate to one another as beings...
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe that is because you haven't tried it. Not a suggestion, by the way. I think that is true for me.
Eliza Madrigal: with faces.. expressions...
Calvino Rabeni: It does seem natural for humans
SophiaSharon Larnia: have not tried what, seeing being as something different than myself?
Calvino Rabeni: Seeing as person looking back at you
Calvino Rabeni: rather than as it.
Eliza Madrigal: Knowing as face-to-face
Calvino Rabeni: Subjectivity over there, not "in here"

Eliza Madrigal: I think the biggest surprise on the little retreat was that Being seemed to be like a person who wanted far more for me than I could want for myself....
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Eliza Madrigal: and yet the word god would be limiting
SophiaSharon Larnia: i think that is what I saw most of my life

Eliza Madrigal: I was talking with someone about Indra's net here yesterday... and combined with that holographic kind of sense of resonating from all/one.... lila is a powerful idea
Eliza Madrigal: an expansive one...
Eliza Madrigal: Yet, still not quite as radical
Eliza Madrigal: as I think we scratch sometimes :) What do you think?
Calvino Rabeni: Scratch, as in touching themes of seeing being?
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
Eliza Madrigal: Starting from the end
Calvino Rabeni: I don't have a very radical feeling - I just reach out from where I already am.
Calvino Rabeni: Path as goal is a related idea
Eliza Madrigal nods... for me it is related to glimpses
Calvino Rabeni: There is always an edge, a horizon
Calvino Rabeni: I know what is there, partly seen
Calvino Rabeni: Yes glimpses
Eliza Madrigal: In appreciating the glimpses there is a peace... so finding glimpses in everything... yes.. seems unfolding edges somehow..
Eliza Madrigal: finding peace in everything
Eliza Madrigal: which is really just us
Calvino Rabeni: Can you speak about the edges, like, specifically?
Calvino Rabeni: As in, here's one, there is another, this is what it looks like.
Eliza Madrigal: That's part of what I'm learning to do here...
Eliza Madrigal: Like...
Calvino Rabeni: It is very interesting to be around people who will do that
Eliza Madrigal: noticing someone in a store... and not turning away... and really seeing them until you see layers of expression....
Calvino Rabeni: I know that one
Eliza Madrigal: and dynamics of instances....
Eliza Madrigal: and dwelling until you feel like you've gone on a journey with them...
Calvino Rabeni: mmhmm
Eliza Madrigal: so maybe you talk with them about something simple...
Eliza Madrigal: but you hear so much more...
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Eliza Madrigal: eggs and potatoes are and are not eggs and potatoes...hehe
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Eliza Madrigal: And even there still so surface level...
Eliza Madrigal: So yes definitely something I'd like to learn to relax into more...

Eliza then turns the tables, so I advance the next topic, something like "faith", but mixed in with perception and choice-in-the-moment aspects. 

Eliza Madrigal: Your turn!

Calvino Rabeni: heh
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Calvino Rabeni: OK, one thing - an edge -
Calvino Rabeni: an idea toward it is looking at the word "happiness"
Calvino Rabeni: which comes from "hap" for luck, chance, fortune, happenstance
Calvino Rabeni: And - I got this idea from a story I heard recently
Calvino Rabeni: what is a superficial ide
Calvino Rabeni: I mean - it is contingent
Calvino Rabeni: but something else as a possibility would be joy - which is not contingent
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: as an experience to have regardless of what happens
Calvino Rabeni: so it gets into the word faith. And I have no religious background of that
Calvino Rabeni: but as a creative act, perhaps one can go in that direction
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I like linking faith and creativity, a lot!
Calvino Rabeni: when people say faith, sometimes it lacks the creative aspect
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: a leap!
Calvino Rabeni: then it is just like, a placeholder until something "really true" comes along
Eliza Madrigal: yes, listening closely
Calvino Rabeni: But the creative aspect of it happens anytime and is not conditioned on happenings
Calvino Rabeni: but at some level seems like a combination choice and attention
Calvino Rabeni: in that it can be influenced by will
Calvino Rabeni: All very subtle words and often used differently
Eliza Madrigal: Hm, subtle will?
Eliza Madrigal: attention...ah, okay
Eliza Madrigal: as in "I will attend"
Calvino Rabeni: Yes like that
Calvino Rabeni: an element of the epoche, perhaps but maybe more active.