Page last modified 19:54, 9 Apr 2010 by Mickorod
2009.12.08 13:00 - YS BS and ES
Table of contents
- 1. The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard. The comments are by Mickorod Renard.
- 2. Pema Pera: Wol, while we are waiting for everyone to come in, amidst rounds of greetings, just a few quick remarks. I very much enjoyed the beautiful YSBS examples you gave Sunday afternoon, as I quoted in my email announcement of the theme session for today.Pema Pera: I similarly enjoyed the discussion during the weekly guardian session, 8 am Sunday, but if I may correct one impression, concerning what you said:Pema Pera: [quoting:] Wol Euler: stim and storm and pema are entirely within the "community" circle, they have so much experience of practices like these that they have no personal need of them at allWol Euler grins. I thought you 'd like that :)Pema Pera: For me at least, it's the other way around: the reason for me to start PaB was first and foremost for myself: I really feel a need to integrate my practice with my life, and PaB was the best trick I had found so far. And rather than doing it just by myself, I thought it would be both more fun and mutually stimulating to share it with others.Pema Pera: Even so, I would do it myself, even if nobody else were interested. And the fact that others find it useful is even better, a nice bonus!Pema Pera: (sorry to be contrarian, Wol :-)Pema Pera: Wol, what do you think, shall we get started?Wol Euler: yes, let's.Wol Euler: Shall I?Pema Pera: please!Wol Euler: OK, it all began with a misunderstanding, or a misstatement.Pema Pera: (this is a theme session: for the first ten minutes and a bit, Wol and I will talk, and then everybody can jlin in)Pema Pera: *joinWol Euler: We had been talking about the practices, in particular the Seeing ones. Aubergine asked for a definition.Wol Euler: I said: Wol Euler: it's part of a pair, actually, YSBS is the full set Wol Euler: You Seeing -- which is how you normally exist in and see the worldWol Euler: Wol Euler: Being Seeing -- which is how someone who was fully in tune with Being, having dropped all preconceptions and whatnots, would see the worldWol Euler: ... which is of course false :) as Pema then rightly corrected.Wol Euler: Pema Pera: in your description there were still two: someone and Being -- in tune with is still separationWol Euler: I'd been describing the third Seeing, Enlightened Seeing.Wol Euler: I knew at the time that I was wrong, but in the stress ofhte moment I couldn't find the way to the proper description :)Mickorod Renard: am in im with LizaBolonath Crystal: namaste @ all :)Fefonz Quan: (why so snow?...)Wol Euler: That prompted Pema to suggest a theme session to discuss all three, how they relatWol Euler: *relateBolonath Crystal: sorry for being late. did i miss something important?Bertram Jacobus: hi maxine hi liza hi bolonath ! ... ;-)Pema Pera: thank you, Wol!Pema Pera: the three ways of seeing, YS, ES, BS were introduced more than a year agoPema Pera: but so far we have focused on YS and BS mostlyPema Pera: the problem with ES is that that there is a danger of emphasizing misconceptions we all have about what it might mean to "be enlightened"Pema Pera: personally I prefer to avoid the whole term if I can help itPema Pera: it can easily lead to a kind of ego inflationPema Pera: both in the way we strive for it as a goal, as well as when we get a few tiny glimpses and then think that we are pretty far along with the Big ThingBertram Jacobus: i like the term becuase it can give a nice impression / description - on the other hand ...Pema Pera: in contrst, the danger of misunderstanding the notion of Being is much smaller I thinkPema Pera: we just have *no* idea what it can be, no pun intendedPema Pera: so we just play with it, innocently, like a childPema Pera: waiting for Being to show itself to usPema Pera: if we could play equally innocently with thenotion of "enlightenment" there would be far fewer problems there.Pema Pera: In any case, to wrap up:--BELL--Pema Pera: it may be hard to avoid getting into a form of ES, when first trying BS. Therefore, much as I have tried to steer away from ES, I also see a need to talk about it, if nothing else to distinguish between ES and BS. So . . . here we are. Wol, do you want to add something further at this point?Wol Euler: not yet, no :)Pema Pera: shall we open the floor then?Wol Euler nodsArchmage Atlantis: Then I have something to sayArchmage Atlantis: it is my understanding and it comes from reading and living and observingArchmage Atlantis: It doesn't fit a formula or an established practiceBertram Jacobus: is that all arch ?Archmage Atlantis: when all parts of me cooperate as one, and, to use terms used before, I am at once both BS and YS, and that is a moment of ESArchmage Atlantis: Those moments are of limited duration, as I do not know allBertram Jacobus: hi zen and aubergine ! :-)Vendy Walpole: Let us Pema and Wol talk then we can discussArchmage Atlantis: Therefore, new depths and heights of ES are always available to meMaxine Walden: There may be several definitions of BS, YS and ES; perhaps it would be helpful to hear a bit more about ES and BS from Pema and WolPema Pera: The way I understand the notion of Being, is that it points to what is above all distinctions, including the notion of moments, and certainly the notion of an experiencer having experiencesArchmage Atlantis: That is all, Pema, just my personal viewpointPema Pera: we are done, Vendy and Maxine, thank you!Pema Pera: everybody is free to speak up at this pointPema Pera: thank you, Arch!Mickorod Renard: could Being be described as a presence?Pema Pera: there is the presence of Being yesPema Pera: but I wouldn't equate the twoPema Pera: ah, Wol, did you want to say something about using tools?Wol Euler: more of an "is-ness" :)Pema Pera: yesZen Arado: emptiness too?Pema Pera: emptiness is an aspect, so is clarityPema Pera: Being is beyond all conceptsPema Pera: the central thing is that we *can* in some way "work" with it, it can give us traction, as a kind of "tool"Wol Euler nodsPema Pera: as long as we are careful not to reify BeingMickorod Renard: reify?Fefonz Quan: i find that one of the issues here, is that we are using words that we don't know the meaning behind themPema Pera: make it into a thing = re-ifyFefonz Quan: dZen Arado: as soon as you say anything you are reifying thoughWol Euler: I see (and use) YS and BS in that way, as tools - rather than as states of being, as I think Arch was speaking aboutMickorod Renard: ok thanksPema Pera: (there is no meaning behind Being, Fef :-)Wol Euler: the difference there to the Nines is that they are in my experience more changes of state.Pema Pera: yes, Wol, thinking in terms of "states" of being/mind/consciousness is exactly the kind of trap in thinking about ESWol Euler: I use YSBS as deliberate exrercises in visualization or experiencingFefonz Quan: (Nines?)Pema Pera: (sorry, Wol, was refering to your earlier use of "state")Wol Euler: (pause coming up, do we want to try YS this time, then BS?)Wol Euler: (I was unclear, I meant that the Nines are or produce changes in my state of being, whereas YSBS is a short-lived tool)Pema Pera: yes, Wol, the only way to "use" Being is to let it speak, see -- to play as Being, really :-)Wol Euler writes down the nice phrase.Agatha Macbeth: :)Pema Pera: just thinking about letting Being be can free up so much ego clinging . . . .Archmage Atlantis: I feel a need to go back and review the written material to claify conversationPema Pera: rather than trying to fight the ego or confront it, you can simply bypass it, let it dropPema Pera: let Being take care of the illusion that there is a separate selfPema Pera: since Being is playing everything, including self/ego, we can return the compliment and play BeingPema Pera: to short circuit the whole gameVendy Walpole: Pema, Wol, could you tell more about the difference between BS and ES? If there is difference? We have talked about YS and BS, this is rather new topic here- ES.Wol Euler: Did anyone try YS or BS or both during hte pause? would you like to talk about what happened?Wol Euler: Enlightened Seeing was invented in a session talking about YSBS, if I remember correctlyPema Pera: yes, partly as a way to contrast it with BSVendy Walpole: what differs it from Being seeing?Pema Pera looking at Wol :-)Wol Euler: someone suggested trying to See as though you were at the end of the process (a common idea here)Wol Euler: as though you'd already achieved enlightement and were doing the exercise from that positoin of ... refined purity of being, let's say.Wol Euler: how would what that person sees differ from what you or Being saw?Wol Euler: so it was a bit of a theoretical exercise at first.Wol Euler: ES is still based in the presence of a person who sees. BS is just being, it just *is*Wol Euler looks at Pema. OK so far?Pema Pera: and the big danger there is to continue to posit a subject/object split: an (enlightened) experiencer somehow still having experiences of somethingPema Pera: yes, Wol :-)Aubergine Mint: how are you defining enlightenment?Pema Pera: I'd rather not, Aubergine :-)Wol Euler: that's the catch!Bertram Jacobus: freedom from suffering / pain aubergineStorm Nordwind: Ah no Bertram - there is still a good way to go from there to enlightenment (by scholarly accounts!)Wol Euler: I would rather say "having seen and put aside all harmful habits of body and mind", but then I am very pragmaticPema Pera: enlightenment as a liberation can easily come across as an attempt to liberate a cartoon figure: cut out Donald Duck from the pages of the magazine and try to let it walk on the streets . . . .Pema Pera: Storm, can you tell us more?Pema Pera: (Storm warming up to the task, one degree at a time :-)Wol Euler: hehehehehPema Pera: (from -16 to -15 Celcius)Mickorod Renard: freedom from suffering and pain can be obtained through dispair,,and not always the most prefered routeStorm Nordwind: I hesitate to derail the discussion and was merely correcting an impression. Being free from suffering is the first ground of a Bodhisattva in classical Mahayana BuddhismAubergine Mint: so it doesn't sound like ES is possible unless you're enlightenedPema Pera: see, that's the catch, Aubergine, "you" can never become enlightened . . . .Pema Pera: Donald Duck cannot escape the pages of the comic bookWol Euler: it's a "what if", Aubergine. The idea behind it is (and I am going out on a limb of my own here) is that by contrasting what you imagine ES would see to what you did see, you can perhaps spot some attachments or weaknesses in yourselfWol Euler: that you hadn't previously considered.Pema Pera: oh yes, there is a good way to use ES, in that way, I full agree!Pema Pera: it's like a half-way house to BS in that sensePema Pera: half-way house to sanityWol Euler: A lot of the work of becoming some-other-word-than-enlightened is in identifying the things that you take for grantedWol Euler: and this is a way to spot themBertram Jacobus: (sry i´ll leave - don´t let the talk be interrupted please) ...Pema Pera: the drawback in my opinion is that ES is an attempt to exchange YS problems for ES problems, whereas BS is a faster and more pure approach -- again, in my opinion, and for my taste, not as a general recipe of courseWol Euler: (another pause coming up, shall we try again?)Storm Nordwind notes that it is 1 minute to the next bellZen Arado: I thought it was just our original state before we consttructed our illusions and a sense of self - so progress towards enlightenment is more a process of substractionPema Pera: shall we try another Being Seeing during the break?Pema Pera: yes, and you can subtract "progress" then as well, Zen :-)Mickorod Renard: okWol Euler: taking "seeing" in a very loose way: meaning appreciating appearances, experiencing what isBolonath Crystal: i find it impossible to just see without thinking about what i seeBolonath Crystal: so i suppose seeing is a kind of thinkingPema Pera: "seeing" is used here in a very general wayBolonath Crystal: yes... same with hearing, of coursePema Pera: allowing, letting are also aspectsPema Pera: sure!Mickorod Renard: I feel its more out of body,,no wieght, no barriersPema Pera: We can also just sit back, smiling, enjoying watching Being talking with Being about Being Seeing BeingWol Euler: I think that this relates to a discussion some time back about intuition, the difference between intuition and thought.Fefonz Quan: jBolonath Crystal: i found out, that i think of my ego as an (it) during this practiceWol Euler: someone defined intuition as a wu-wei kind of thinking: thinking without having thoughts.Pema Pera: can you say more about how you saw/encountered your ego, Bolo?Bolonath Crystal: i try to...Pema Pera: (wonderful phrase, Wol !! that's how it feels)Aubergine Mint: maybe like thinking before there was language?Bolonath Crystal: when i see as being, i see the ego as a point, where different perceptions meet to form a "virtual reality modell"Wol Euler: /m enodsPema Pera: :-)Bolonath Crystal: there is seeing, there is hearing, there is thinking. ego brings them togetherWol Euler: yes, aubergine, BS would be trying to see without languageWol Euler: to have intuition in seeing, as it werePema Pera: yes, the ego feels so powerful, but shrinks back when seen -- it needs to hide itself to play its boastful role -> BoloBolonath Crystal: the only thing that being "is", is the power of creation. the rest, ego included, are creations of beingPema Pera: the rule of thumb in PaB is "seeing is enough" . . . and speaking for myself, each day I find new depths in that notion, from daily practiceWol Euler: Mick, you said " I feel its more out of body,,no wieght, no barriers". Would you like to expand on that?Mickorod Renard: mmmm..you caught me thinking elsewhere mpwMickorod Renard: now*Calvino Rabeni: The ego shrinks back when seen because it doesn't actually exist, not because it is "scared" of exposure. (Or so I conjecture)Wol Euler: mmhmm, like a shadow that ceases to exist when the lighting changesCalvino Rabeni: YesBolonath Crystal agrees. only being existsCalvino Rabeni: You can't actually catch itPema Pera: but you can be afraid of shadows, for quite a while :-)Wol Euler: oh yes.Agatha Macbeth: As a childCalvino Rabeni: Shadows delimit the boundaries or edges of egoWol Euler: and as an adult. "What would the neighbours think"Calvino Rabeni: But which came first?Agatha Macbeth: :)bWolGeoff Baily: My feelings are in tune with Mick. An openness and availability, a joining with' what is 'Wol Euler: mmhmmVendy Walpole: We have noticed that our senses become sharper when we are more aware, and now, to me when I was in Being seeing, my pain - the headche I have right now, became weaker as it was getting smaller as the borders were expanding. Does this have some sense?Mickorod Renard: perhaps for me some abandonement of physical remindersPema Pera: absolutely, Vendy (and Geoff, Mick, and all): just relaxing into Being opens up so much in so many ways!Wol Euler nods. I find that all annoyances generally are reduced, or even turn enjoyable.Pema Pera: We're approaching the hour. Thank you so much, Wol, and everybody!Pema Pera: I have to scoot to another meeting at 2 pm sharpWol Euler: thank you Pema, it was a great session.Pema Pera: I really enjoyed this conversation!Mickorod Renard: thankyou Pema,and Wol,,and everyonePema Pera: and we can continue if there is sufficient interestZen Arado: thank youVendy Walpole: Thank youYakuzza Lethecus: thanks!Geoff Baily: thank you PemaFefonz Quan: thanks Wol and PemaAubergine Mint: thanks everyoneMickorod Renard: incuding Liza,,a new visitor--BELL--Archmage Atlantis: As always, thank you for this place, Pema, Storm ..... Wol thank you for guiding the discusussion........later allWol Euler: shall we continue next week, same time same place?Mickorod Renard: yes pleaseWol Euler: all right, done. I'll tell Pema and post a message.Mickorod Renard: greatWol Euler: Aubergine, the theme session come up irregularly, whenever something of interest arises in a discussion.Bolonath Crystal: thank you all, bye and om shanti :) *bows*Wol Euler: This came out of your question on the 4th, last Friday I think, which I answered and Pema correctedWol Euler: actually there is another one this evening!Wol Euler: EOs and Calvino are talking about facilitation, enabling, at 7pm hereWol Euler: it is you, isn'T it?Aubergine Mint: i'll try to come, thank youAgatha Macbeth: Facilitation?Calvino Rabeni: Yes, we are doing that. :)Wol Euler: I would paste in the intro, but my mail account is on anohter computer.Calvino Rabeni: Facilitation is the general practice of helping people or groups - in PAB, with a mindfulness aspect.Agatha Macbeth: Oh I seeAgatha Macbeth: Is it me or has it gone quiet?Wol Euler: it's gone quiet, Often happens after the hour is up :)Agatha Macbeth: Ah :)Mickorod Renard: I am in Im with LizaMickorod Renard: sorryAgatha Macbeth: ooooooooh!Mickorod Renard: well,,that was fun ,,and during my slot too,,I feel honouredWol Euler smilesGeoff Baily: A lot to think aboutWol Euler: thanks for letting us use it :)Agatha Macbeth: Take care of yer slot Mick :)Mickorod Renard: he he ..yehhhhh,,your not having it permanentWol Euler: well, next week :)Wol Euler: that's permanent enough.Mickorod Renard: might have to charge a feeAgatha Macbeth: How much?Wol Euler: *we* might have to charge admission :-PAgatha Macbeth: MmmmmWol Euler gigglesAgatha Macbeth: :PMickorod Renard: I will work out a charge Wol,,mmmmmmWol Euler: we'll pay you in virtual cigarsWol Euler: oh, hey, that reminds me, my alt found a marvellous cigar store. I'll have him send you a LMMickorod Renard: he he ,,,,smokinggggggMickorod Renard: thanksMickorod Renard: I could do with finding someone who can export cigars to me,,Agatha Macbeth: Fidel Castro?Mickorod Renard: he he heWol Euler: is he still around? I thought he'd left his baby brother in charge.Mickorod Renard: he is still aliveAgatha Macbeth: Apparently his speeches still go on for hoursWol Euler: :)Wol Euler: well, they used to here too.Agatha Macbeth: Starting to look his age though :)Agatha Macbeth: Bring back Che that's what I say!Agatha Macbeth: Or david essexWol Euler: ah, those were the days.Mickorod Renard: when you said that what we related about seeing as being was ok,,are we not just being imaginative Wol?Agatha Macbeth: Sure were!Wol Euler: depends what you mean by "just", Mick :)Wol Euler: if you mean "it's worthless if it is from my imagination", then definitely no.Calvino Rabeni: It seems imagination is an essential instrument for this practiceWol Euler: the formal name for it would be "visualization"Mickorod Renard: mmm,,well I always add that bit,,it seems less definativeAgatha Macbeth: Is that like Creative Visualisation?Wol Euler: imagination definitely is part of ES, and that's one of hte reasons Pema is hesitant about it.Calvino Rabeni: It is creative. Don't know about that work, specificallyWol Euler: BS is (ideally) about pure appreciation, seeing intuitively without labellingWol Euler: sounds like it would be, Agatha, yes.Agatha Macbeth: :)Wol Euler googlesAgatha Macbeth: Googles or giggles?Geoff Baily: yesWol Euler: wikipedia "Creative visualization (sports visualization) refers to the practice of seeking to affect the outer world via changing one's thoughts.[1] Creative Visualization is the basic technique underlying positive thinking[2] and is frequently used by athletes to enhance their performance."Agatha Macbeth: Well I didn't know *that*!Wol Euler: yes, that is related to ES, but less so to YS and (ideally) not at all to BSAgatha Macbeth: About the athletes I meanAgatha Macbeth: i thought they used drugs :)Wol Euler: well, that is perhaps the bias of whoever wrote the article. hehehehehAgatha Macbeth: MmmWol Euler: it continues "Creative visualization is the technique of using one's imagination to visualize specific behaviors or events occurring in one's life.[7] Advocates suggest creating a detailed schema of what one desires and then visualizing it over and over again with all of the senses (i.e., what do you see? what do you feel? what do you hear? what does it smell like?)."Calvino Rabeni: There is a long history of visualization in athleticsAgatha Macbeth: WowWol Euler: that is more generally applicable, and clearly relates to visualizing what an enlightened being would be in order to think what it might seeCalvino Rabeni: I was in an ultramarathon runnng club where it was used extensivelyAgatha Macbeth: AhWol Euler: oooohAgatha Macbeth: Sports pschycology eh?Agatha Macbeth: PsychologyAgatha Macbeth: WhateverCalvino Rabeni: It is one of the areas of practice that have influenced how I think about thingsWol Euler: interesting.Calvino Rabeni: Not very psychological actuallyAgatha Macbeth: Are you an athlete then cal?Calvino Rabeni: Not anymore at this time.Calvino Rabeni: I had some very athletic periods.Calvino Rabeni: Hard on the bodyAgatha Macbeth: I'll bet!Wol Euler: how long is an ultramarathon?Calvino Rabeni: Visualization and meditation during running is a fascinating practiceAgatha Macbeth: Run fat boy run?Calvino Rabeni: It is anything longer than a marathon - 26 + milesAgatha Macbeth: That's a film btwCalvino Rabeni: Good film?Agatha Macbeth: I thought it was quite funny, yesAgatha Macbeth: And quite touching tooAgatha Macbeth: But that's me :)Calvino Rabeni: There are various sects that use running as a primary practiceCalvino Rabeni: One in japan - also the sri chinmoy sect in americaAgatha Macbeth: Religious sects you mean?Calvino Rabeni: YesAgatha Macbeth: Uh huhMickorod Renard: is this because of a hightened auto suggestive state that one can reach when in that mode?Calvino Rabeni: Not reallyCalvino Rabeni: Any art can become a practice for reaching full mindfulness and presenceAgatha Macbeth: Mevlevi Mehlevi?Calvino Rabeni: YesAgatha Macbeth: Are they not associated with Sufism?Wol Euler: I thought they were the basis of it.Agatha Macbeth: YesCalvino Rabeni: Running, for instance, requires one to mobilize ALL aspects of mind and body into a unityAgatha Macbeth: That's itCalvino Rabeni: The physically challenging aspect of it is an advantageCalvino Rabeni: Martial arts - same. If you are not present, you get an immediate reminder :)Agatha Macbeth: Oh yes!Wol Euler: :)Calvino Rabeni: It is like the .09 second pause.Calvino Rabeni: And it has to pragmatically workAgatha Macbeth: Like Kwai Chang Caine metitaing by firing aAgatha Macbeth: oh hellCalvino Rabeni: :)Agatha Macbeth: when i type 'bow' it makes meCalvino Rabeni: Be one with the keyboard, Grasshopper :)Wol Euler: :)Agatha Macbeth: That's damned annoyingAgatha Macbeth: How can you stop that?Agatha Macbeth: OK Wol, timeslip!Liza Deischer: I'm leavingLiza Deischer: thank you for letting me part of this eveningAgatha Macbeth: Bye LizaLiza Deischer: byeCalvino Rabeni: BFN Liza
The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard. The comments are by Mickorod Renard.
This Session was a special and may be extended next week at the same time slot. Pema and Wol took the driving seat to cover issues around YS, BS and ES, which I am sure is interesting to most of us either as a reminder as to what these mean or as an introduction for the first time. I am not going to say much more as I feel its more important for me to get the log posted so that as many folk that could not attend have the earliest chance to catch up.
Pema Pera: Wol, while we are waiting for everyone to come in, amidst rounds of greetings, just a few quick remarks. I very much enjoyed the beautiful YSBS examples you gave Sunday afternoon, as I quoted in my email announcement of the theme session for today.
Pema Pera: I similarly enjoyed the discussion during the weekly guardian session, 8 am Sunday, but if I may correct one impression, concerning what you said:
Pema Pera: [quoting:] Wol Euler: stim and storm and pema are entirely within the "community" circle, they have so much experience of practices like these that they have no personal need of them at all
Wol Euler grins. I thought you 'd like that :)
Pema Pera: For me at least, it's the other way around: the reason for me to start PaB was first and foremost for myself: I really feel a need to integrate my practice with my life, and PaB was the best trick I had found so far. And rather than doing it just by myself, I thought it would be both more fun and mutually stimulating to share it with others.
Pema Pera: Even so, I would do it myself, even if nobody else were interested. And the fact that others find it useful is even better, a nice bonus!
Pema Pera: (sorry to be contrarian, Wol :-)
Pema Pera: Wol, what do you think, shall we get started?
Wol Euler: yes, let's.
Wol Euler: Shall I?
Pema Pera: please!
Wol Euler: OK, it all began with a misunderstanding, or a misstatement.
Pema Pera: (this is a theme session: for the first ten minutes and a bit, Wol and I will talk, and then everybody can jlin in)
Pema Pera: *join
Wol Euler: We had been talking about the practices, in particular the Seeing ones. Aubergine asked for a definition.
Wol Euler: I said: Wol Euler: it's part of a pair, actually, YSBS is the full set Wol Euler: You Seeing -- which is how you normally exist in and see the world
Wol Euler: Wol Euler: Being Seeing -- which is how someone who was fully in tune with Being, having dropped all preconceptions and whatnots, would see the world
Wol Euler: ... which is of course false :) as Pema then rightly corrected.
Wol Euler: Pema Pera: in your description there were still two: someone and Being -- in tune with is still separation
Wol Euler: I'd been describing the third Seeing, Enlightened Seeing.
Wol Euler: I knew at the time that I was wrong, but in the stress ofhte moment I couldn't find the way to the proper description :)
Mickorod Renard: am in im with Liza
Bolonath Crystal: namaste @ all :)
Fefonz Quan: (why so snow?...)
Wol Euler: That prompted Pema to suggest a theme session to discuss all three, how they relat
Wol Euler: *relate
Bolonath Crystal: sorry for being late. did i miss something important?
Bertram Jacobus: hi maxine hi liza hi bolonath ! ... ;-)
Pema Pera: thank you, Wol!
Pema Pera: the three ways of seeing, YS, ES, BS were introduced more than a year ago
Pema Pera: but so far we have focused on YS and BS mostly
Pema Pera: the problem with ES is that that there is a danger of emphasizing misconceptions we all have about what it might mean to "be enlightened"
Pema Pera: personally I prefer to avoid the whole term if I can help it
Pema Pera: it can easily lead to a kind of ego inflation
Pema Pera: both in the way we strive for it as a goal, as well as when we get a few tiny glimpses and then think that we are pretty far along with the Big Thing
Bertram Jacobus: i like the term becuase it can give a nice impression / description - on the other hand ...
Pema Pera: in contrst, the danger of misunderstanding the notion of Being is much smaller I think
Pema Pera: we just have *no* idea what it can be, no pun intended
Pema Pera: so we just play with it, innocently, like a child
Pema Pera: waiting for Being to show itself to us
Pema Pera: if we could play equally innocently with thenotion of "enlightenment" there would be far fewer problems there.
Pema Pera: In any case, to wrap up:
--BELL--
Pema Pera: it may be hard to avoid getting into a form of ES, when first trying BS. Therefore, much as I have tried to steer away from ES, I also see a need to talk about it, if nothing else to distinguish between ES and BS. So . . . here we are. Wol, do you want to add something further at this point?
Wol Euler: not yet, no :)
Pema Pera: shall we open the floor then?
Wol Euler nods
Archmage Atlantis: Then I have something to say
Archmage Atlantis: it is my understanding and it comes from reading and living and observing
Archmage Atlantis: It doesn't fit a formula or an established practice
Bertram Jacobus: is that all arch ?
Archmage Atlantis: when all parts of me cooperate as one, and, to use terms used before, I am at once both BS and YS, and that is a moment of ES
Archmage Atlantis: Those moments are of limited duration, as I do not know all
Bertram Jacobus: hi zen and aubergine ! :-)
Vendy Walpole: Let us Pema and Wol talk then we can discuss
Archmage Atlantis: Therefore, new depths and heights of ES are always available to me
Maxine Walden: There may be several definitions of BS, YS and ES; perhaps it would be helpful to hear a bit more about ES and BS from Pema and Wol
Pema Pera: The way I understand the notion of Being, is that it points to what is above all distinctions, including the notion of moments, and certainly the notion of an experiencer having experiences
Archmage Atlantis: That is all, Pema, just my personal viewpoint
Pema Pera: we are done, Vendy and Maxine, thank you!
Pema Pera: everybody is free to speak up at this point
Pema Pera: thank you, Arch!
Mickorod Renard: could Being be described as a presence?
Pema Pera: there is the presence of Being yes
Pema Pera: but I wouldn't equate the two
Pema Pera: ah, Wol, did you want to say something about using tools?
Wol Euler: more of an "is-ness" :)
Pema Pera: yes
Zen Arado: emptiness too?
Pema Pera: emptiness is an aspect, so is clarity
Pema Pera: Being is beyond all concepts
Pema Pera: the central thing is that we *can* in some way "work" with it, it can give us traction, as a kind of "tool"
Wol Euler nods
Pema Pera: as long as we are careful not to reify Being
Mickorod Renard: reify?
Fefonz Quan: i find that one of the issues here, is that we are using words that we don't know the meaning behind them
Pema Pera: make it into a thing = re-ify
Fefonz Quan: d
Zen Arado: as soon as you say anything you are reifying though
Wol Euler: I see (and use) YS and BS in that way, as tools - rather than as states of being, as I think Arch was speaking about
Mickorod Renard: ok thanks
Pema Pera: (there is no meaning behind Being, Fef :-)
Wol Euler: the difference there to the Nines is that they are in my experience more changes of state.
Pema Pera: yes, Wol, thinking in terms of "states" of being/mind/consciousness is exactly the kind of trap in thinking about ES
Wol Euler: I use YSBS as deliberate exrercises in visualization or experiencing
Fefonz Quan: (Nines?)
Pema Pera: (sorry, Wol, was refering to your earlier use of "state")
Wol Euler: (pause coming up, do we want to try YS this time, then BS?)
Wol Euler: (I was unclear, I meant that the Nines are or produce changes in my state of being, whereas YSBS is a short-lived tool)
Pema Pera: yes, Wol, the only way to "use" Being is to let it speak, see -- to play as Being, really :-)
Wol Euler writes down the nice phrase.
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Pema Pera: just thinking about letting Being be can free up so much ego clinging . . . .
Archmage Atlantis: I feel a need to go back and review the written material to claify conversation
Pema Pera: rather than trying to fight the ego or confront it, you can simply bypass it, let it drop
Pema Pera: let Being take care of the illusion that there is a separate self
Pema Pera: since Being is playing everything, including self/ego, we can return the compliment and play Being
Pema Pera: to short circuit the whole game
Vendy Walpole: Pema, Wol, could you tell more about the difference between BS and ES? If there is difference? We have talked about YS and BS, this is rather new topic here- ES.
Wol Euler: Did anyone try YS or BS or both during hte pause? would you like to talk about what happened?
Wol Euler: Enlightened Seeing was invented in a session talking about YSBS, if I remember correctly
Pema Pera: yes, partly as a way to contrast it with BS
Vendy Walpole: what differs it from Being seeing?
Pema Pera looking at Wol :-)
Wol Euler: someone suggested trying to See as though you were at the end of the process (a common idea here)
Wol Euler: as though you'd already achieved enlightement and were doing the exercise from that positoin of ... refined purity of being, let's say.
Wol Euler: how would what that person sees differ from what you or Being saw?
Wol Euler: so it was a bit of a theoretical exercise at first.
Wol Euler: ES is still based in the presence of a person who sees. BS is just being, it just *is*
Wol Euler looks at Pema. OK so far?
Pema Pera: and the big danger there is to continue to posit a subject/object split: an (enlightened) experiencer somehow still having experiences of something
Pema Pera: yes, Wol :-)
Aubergine Mint: how are you defining enlightenment?
Pema Pera: I'd rather not, Aubergine :-)
Wol Euler: that's the catch!
Bertram Jacobus: freedom from suffering / pain aubergine
Storm Nordwind: Ah no Bertram - there is still a good way to go from there to enlightenment (by scholarly accounts!)
Wol Euler: I would rather say "having seen and put aside all harmful habits of body and mind", but then I am very pragmatic
Pema Pera: enlightenment as a liberation can easily come across as an attempt to liberate a cartoon figure: cut out Donald Duck from the pages of the magazine and try to let it walk on the streets . . . .
Pema Pera: Storm, can you tell us more?
Pema Pera: (Storm warming up to the task, one degree at a time :-)
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Pema Pera: (from -16 to -15 Celcius)
Mickorod Renard: freedom from suffering and pain can be obtained through dispair,,and not always the most prefered route
Storm Nordwind: I hesitate to derail the discussion and was merely correcting an impression. Being free from suffering is the first ground of a Bodhisattva in classical Mahayana Buddhism
Aubergine Mint: so it doesn't sound like ES is possible unless you're enlightened
Pema Pera: see, that's the catch, Aubergine, "you" can never become enlightened . . . .
Pema Pera: Donald Duck cannot escape the pages of the comic book
Wol Euler: it's a "what if", Aubergine. The idea behind it is (and I am going out on a limb of my own here) is that by contrasting what you imagine ES would see to what you did see, you can perhaps spot some attachments or weaknesses in yourself
Wol Euler: that you hadn't previously considered.
Pema Pera: oh yes, there is a good way to use ES, in that way, I full agree!
Pema Pera: it's like a half-way house to BS in that sense
Pema Pera: half-way house to sanity
Wol Euler: A lot of the work of becoming some-other-word-than-enlightened is in identifying the things that you take for granted
Wol Euler: and this is a way to spot them
Bertram Jacobus: (sry i´ll leave - don´t let the talk be interrupted please) ...
Pema Pera: the drawback in my opinion is that ES is an attempt to exchange YS problems for ES problems, whereas BS is a faster and more pure approach -- again, in my opinion, and for my taste, not as a general recipe of course
Wol Euler: (another pause coming up, shall we try again?)
Storm Nordwind notes that it is 1 minute to the next bell
Zen Arado: I thought it was just our original state before we consttructed our illusions and a sense of self - so progress towards enlightenment is more a process of substraction
Pema Pera: shall we try another Being Seeing during the break?
Pema Pera: yes, and you can subtract "progress" then as well, Zen :-)
Mickorod Renard: ok
Wol Euler: taking "seeing" in a very loose way: meaning appreciating appearances, experiencing what is
Bolonath Crystal: i find it impossible to just see without thinking about what i see
Bolonath Crystal: so i suppose seeing is a kind of thinking
Pema Pera: "seeing" is used here in a very general way
Bolonath Crystal: yes... same with hearing, of course
Pema Pera: allowing, letting are also aspects
Pema Pera: sure!
Mickorod Renard: I feel its more out of body,,no wieght, no barriers
Pema Pera: We can also just sit back, smiling, enjoying watching Being talking with Being about Being Seeing Being
Wol Euler: I think that this relates to a discussion some time back about intuition, the difference between intuition and thought.
Fefonz Quan: j
Bolonath Crystal: i found out, that i think of my ego as an (it) during this practice
Wol Euler: someone defined intuition as a wu-wei kind of thinking: thinking without having thoughts.
Pema Pera: can you say more about how you saw/encountered your ego, Bolo?
Bolonath Crystal: i try to...
Pema Pera: (wonderful phrase, Wol !! that's how it feels)
Aubergine Mint: maybe like thinking before there was language?
Bolonath Crystal: when i see as being, i see the ego as a point, where different perceptions meet to form a "virtual reality modell"
Wol Euler: /m enods
Pema Pera: :-)
Bolonath Crystal: there is seeing, there is hearing, there is thinking. ego brings them together
Wol Euler: yes, aubergine, BS would be trying to see without language
Wol Euler: to have intuition in seeing, as it were
Pema Pera: yes, the ego feels so powerful, but shrinks back when seen -- it needs to hide itself to play its boastful role -> Bolo
Bolonath Crystal: the only thing that being "is", is the power of creation. the rest, ego included, are creations of being
Pema Pera: the rule of thumb in PaB is "seeing is enough" . . . and speaking for myself, each day I find new depths in that notion, from daily practice
Wol Euler: Mick, you said " I feel its more out of body,,no wieght, no barriers". Would you like to expand on that?
Mickorod Renard: mmmm..you caught me thinking elsewhere mpw
Mickorod Renard: now*
Calvino Rabeni: The ego shrinks back when seen because it doesn't actually exist, not because it is "scared" of exposure. (Or so I conjecture)
Wol Euler: mmhmm, like a shadow that ceases to exist when the lighting changes
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Bolonath Crystal agrees. only being exists
Calvino Rabeni: You can't actually catch it
Pema Pera: but you can be afraid of shadows, for quite a while :-)
Wol Euler: oh yes.
Agatha Macbeth: As a child
Calvino Rabeni: Shadows delimit the boundaries or edges of ego
Wol Euler: and as an adult. "What would the neighbours think"
Calvino Rabeni: But which came first?
Agatha Macbeth: :)bWol
Geoff Baily: My feelings are in tune with Mick. An openness and availability, a joining with' what is '
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Vendy Walpole: We have noticed that our senses become sharper when we are more aware, and now, to me when I was in Being seeing, my pain - the headche I have right now, became weaker as it was getting smaller as the borders were expanding. Does this have some sense?
Mickorod Renard: perhaps for me some abandonement of physical reminders
Pema Pera: absolutely, Vendy (and Geoff, Mick, and all): just relaxing into Being opens up so much in so many ways!
Wol Euler nods. I find that all annoyances generally are reduced, or even turn enjoyable.
Pema Pera: We're approaching the hour. Thank you so much, Wol, and everybody!
Pema Pera: I have to scoot to another meeting at 2 pm sharp
Wol Euler: thank you Pema, it was a great session.
Pema Pera: I really enjoyed this conversation!
Mickorod Renard: thankyou Pema,and Wol,,and everyone
Pema Pera: and we can continue if there is sufficient interest
Zen Arado: thank you
Vendy Walpole: Thank you
Yakuzza Lethecus: thanks!
Geoff Baily: thank you Pema
Fefonz Quan: thanks Wol and Pema
Aubergine Mint: thanks everyone
Mickorod Renard: incuding Liza,,a new visitor
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: As always, thank you for this place, Pema, Storm ..... Wol thank you for guiding the discusussion........later all
Wol Euler: shall we continue next week, same time same place?
Mickorod Renard: yes please
Wol Euler: all right, done. I'll tell Pema and post a message.
Mickorod Renard: great
Wol Euler: Aubergine, the theme session come up irregularly, whenever something of interest arises in a discussion.
Bolonath Crystal: thank you all, bye and om shanti :) *bows*
Wol Euler: This came out of your question on the 4th, last Friday I think, which I answered and Pema corrected
Wol Euler: actually there is another one this evening!
Wol Euler: EOs and Calvino are talking about facilitation, enabling, at 7pm here
Wol Euler: it is you, isn'T it?
Aubergine Mint: i'll try to come, thank you
Agatha Macbeth: Facilitation?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, we are doing that. :)
Wol Euler: I would paste in the intro, but my mail account is on anohter computer.
Calvino Rabeni: Facilitation is the general practice of helping people or groups - in PAB, with a mindfulness aspect.
Agatha Macbeth: Oh I see
Agatha Macbeth: Is it me or has it gone quiet?
Wol Euler: it's gone quiet, Often happens after the hour is up :)
Agatha Macbeth: Ah :)
Mickorod Renard: I am in Im with Liza
Mickorod Renard: sorry
Agatha Macbeth: ooooooooh!
Mickorod Renard: well,,that was fun ,,and during my slot too,,I feel honoured
Wol Euler smiles
Geoff Baily: A lot to think about
Wol Euler: thanks for letting us use it :)
Agatha Macbeth: Take care of yer slot Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: he he ..yehhhhh,,your not having it permanent
Wol Euler: well, next week :)
Wol Euler: that's permanent enough.
Mickorod Renard: might have to charge a fee
Agatha Macbeth: How much?
Wol Euler: *we* might have to charge admission :-P
Agatha Macbeth: Mmmmm
Wol Euler giggles
Agatha Macbeth: :P
Mickorod Renard: I will work out a charge Wol,,mmmmmm
Wol Euler: we'll pay you in virtual cigars
Wol Euler: oh, hey, that reminds me, my alt found a marvellous cigar store. I'll have him send you a LM
Mickorod Renard: he he ,,,,smokingggggg
Mickorod Renard: thanks
Mickorod Renard: I could do with finding someone who can export cigars to me,,
Agatha Macbeth: Fidel Castro?
Mickorod Renard: he he he
Wol Euler: is he still around? I thought he'd left his baby brother in charge.
Mickorod Renard: he is still alive
Agatha Macbeth: Apparently his speeches still go on for hours
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: well, they used to here too.
Agatha Macbeth: Starting to look his age though :)
Agatha Macbeth: Bring back Che that's what I say!
Agatha Macbeth: Or david essex
Wol Euler: ah, those were the days.
Mickorod Renard: when you said that what we related about seeing as being was ok,,are we not just being imaginative Wol?
Agatha Macbeth: Sure were!
Wol Euler: depends what you mean by "just", Mick :)
Wol Euler: if you mean "it's worthless if it is from my imagination", then definitely no.
Calvino Rabeni: It seems imagination is an essential instrument for this practice
Wol Euler: the formal name for it would be "visualization"
Mickorod Renard: mmm,,well I always add that bit,,it seems less definative
Agatha Macbeth: Is that like Creative Visualisation?
Wol Euler: imagination definitely is part of ES, and that's one of hte reasons Pema is hesitant about it.
Calvino Rabeni: It is creative. Don't know about that work, specifically
Wol Euler: BS is (ideally) about pure appreciation, seeing intuitively without labelling
Wol Euler: sounds like it would be, Agatha, yes.
Agatha Macbeth: :)
Wol Euler googles
Agatha Macbeth: Googles or giggles?
Geoff Baily: yes
Wol Euler: wikipedia "Creative visualization (sports visualization) refers to the practice of seeking to affect the outer world via changing one's thoughts.[1] Creative Visualization is the basic technique underlying positive thinking[2] and is frequently used by athletes to enhance their performance."
Agatha Macbeth: Well I didn't know *that*!
Wol Euler: yes, that is related to ES, but less so to YS and (ideally) not at all to BS
Agatha Macbeth: About the athletes I mean
Agatha Macbeth: i thought they used drugs :)
Wol Euler: well, that is perhaps the bias of whoever wrote the article. heheheheh
Agatha Macbeth: Mmm
Wol Euler: it continues "Creative visualization is the technique of using one's imagination to visualize specific behaviors or events occurring in one's life.[7] Advocates suggest creating a detailed schema of what one desires and then visualizing it over and over again with all of the senses (i.e., what do you see? what do you feel? what do you hear? what does it smell like?)."
Calvino Rabeni: There is a long history of visualization in athletics
Agatha Macbeth: Wow
Wol Euler: that is more generally applicable, and clearly relates to visualizing what an enlightened being would be in order to think what it might see
Calvino Rabeni: I was in an ultramarathon runnng club where it was used extensively
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Wol Euler: ooooh
Agatha Macbeth: Sports pschycology eh?
Agatha Macbeth: Psychology
Agatha Macbeth: Whatever
Calvino Rabeni: It is one of the areas of practice that have influenced how I think about things
Wol Euler: interesting.
Calvino Rabeni: Not very psychological actually
Agatha Macbeth: Are you an athlete then cal?
Calvino Rabeni: Not anymore at this time.
Calvino Rabeni: I had some very athletic periods.
Calvino Rabeni: Hard on the body
Agatha Macbeth: I'll bet!
Wol Euler: how long is an ultramarathon?
Calvino Rabeni: Visualization and meditation during running is a fascinating practice
Agatha Macbeth: Run fat boy run?
Calvino Rabeni: It is anything longer than a marathon - 26 + miles
Agatha Macbeth: That's a film btw
Calvino Rabeni: Good film?
Agatha Macbeth: I thought it was quite funny, yes
Agatha Macbeth: And quite touching too
Agatha Macbeth: But that's me :)
Calvino Rabeni: There are various sects that use running as a primary practice
Calvino Rabeni: One in japan - also the sri chinmoy sect in america
Agatha Macbeth: Religious sects you mean?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Agatha Macbeth: Uh huh
Mickorod Renard: is this because of a hightened auto suggestive state that one can reach when in that mode?
Calvino Rabeni: Not really
Calvino Rabeni: Any art can become a practice for reaching full mindfulness and presence
Agatha Macbeth: Mevlevi Mehlevi?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Agatha Macbeth: Are they not associated with Sufism?
Wol Euler: I thought they were the basis of it.
Agatha Macbeth: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: Running, for instance, requires one to mobilize ALL aspects of mind and body into a unity
Agatha Macbeth: That's it
Calvino Rabeni: The physically challenging aspect of it is an advantage
Calvino Rabeni: Martial arts - same. If you are not present, you get an immediate reminder :)
Agatha Macbeth: Oh yes!
Wol Euler: :)
Calvino Rabeni: It is like the .09 second pause.
Calvino Rabeni: And it has to pragmatically work
Agatha Macbeth: Like Kwai Chang Caine metitaing by firing a
Agatha Macbeth: oh hell
Calvino Rabeni: :)
Agatha Macbeth: when i type 'bow' it makes me
Calvino Rabeni: Be one with the keyboard, Grasshopper :)
Wol Euler: :)
Agatha Macbeth: That's damned annoying
Agatha Macbeth: How can you stop that?
Agatha Macbeth: OK Wol, timeslip!
Liza Deischer: I'm leaving
Liza Deischer: thank you for letting me part of this evening
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Liza
Liza Deischer: bye
Calvino Rabeni: BFN Liza
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