2014.03.24 13:00 - Liminal World

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: hiya Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu! :)
Eliza Madrigal: feeling need to garden :)
Bleu Oleander: ah lovely giant flowers :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: I didn't remember them as being quite so large
Bleu Oleander: quite the green thumb!!
Eliza Madrigal: supergrow
Bleu Oleander: lol

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce!
Bleu Oleander: hiya Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Eliza and Bleu!
Bruce Mowbray: Still rezzing, here.
Eliza Madrigal: Blub is stunned by the giant roses I think... at a standstill
Bruce Mowbray: I can 't see them yet, unfortunately.
Bruce Mowbray: AH!

Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Wol.
Bleu Oleander: hiya Wol
Eliza Madrigal: I bought daffodils today.. just a few, but they felt to fill the whole space
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol :)
Wol Euler: evening all! sorry I'm late
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome to the garden of giant roses!
Wol Euler smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: no worries, glad you made it
Bleu Oleander: feeling small next to the flowery giants :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: "impossible in real life"
Bruce Mowbray: I especially like the white one behind Liz.
Bleu Oleander: except maybe northern California :)
Eliza Madrigal: haha, yes
Eliza Madrigal: my great grandmother loved roses but very difficult in FL humidity
Bruce Mowbray: In Ohio, roses are a mid-summer blessing.
Bleu Oleander: in AZ too not so easy to grow
Bruce Mowbray: and on into the fall.
Eliza Madrigal: ah, interesting... seems late, but what do I know
Eliza Madrigal: :)



Eliza Madrigal: So what's on our minds today?
Eliza Madrigal: I was thinking.... but didn't get far with it... "edges" - as in, we are really pushing the edges of our known universe at this point
Wol Euler listens.
Bleu Oleander: universes perhaps
Eliza Madrigal: just that we (they) can see back to beginnings of time (construct of our time, but still)
Eliza Madrigal: exactly... it is as though we begin to fathom, and discoveries come so fast

Eliza Madrigal smiles at Blub swimming through the Marylin Monroe roses ^^
Wol Euler: aggers
Eliza Madrigal: and then there are other edges... personal edges
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha! :)
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, aggers!
Bleu Oleander: hey Aggers
Agatha Macbeth: And she waddled in...waddle waddle

Bleu Oleander: i feel rather edgeless, don't you?

Wol Euler: hmmm
Agatha Macbeth: Oh great I can see Woolie's face today
Wol Euler: could you expand on that a bit, please, Bleu 
Wol Euler: ?
Eliza Madrigal: until I come across one I didn't realize

Agatha Macbeth: Woolie?
Eliza Madrigal listens
Agatha Macbeth: Woolie*
Agatha Macbeth: Wollie
Agatha Macbeth: Dammit
Wol Euler sighs.
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!
Bruce Mowbray: It happens to us all, aggers.
Agatha Macbeth: Woolie rhinoceros perhaps?

Bleu Oleander: edgeless in the sense of a give and take with the universe ... as part of the universe ... porous
Wol Euler: ah :) ty
Eliza Madrigal: nice phrasing
Bleu Oleander: both physically and mentally
Agatha Macbeth: Why is there a triffid behind you Liz?
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome to the Garden of Giant Roses, aggers!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Oh my
Agatha Macbeth: Roses grow on you I hear

Eliza Madrigal: occasionally I find myself in a situation, or even watching a film, when I realize I'm being challenged in a way I find exhilarating and scary
Agatha Macbeth: 0.0
Wol Euler listens.

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: I felt that last night when I watched ZORBA again for the n^9999 th time.
Agatha Macbeth: How's Baboushka?
Bruce Mowbray: Bouboulina is excellent -- until she died....
Eliza Madrigal: :) what did you feel, Bruce?
Agatha Macbeth: That's the one

Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Zen!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Zenny
Bleu Oleander: hi Zen
Wol Euler: hello zen
Zen Arado: Sorry I forgot the early time again
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome to Liz's Garden of Giant Roses, Zen!
Zen Arado: Hi all
Eliza Madrigal: no worries Zen, we're talking about edges for the moment
Zen Arado: was watching new course

Agatha Macbeth: Arose by another name would still mean got up
Zen Arado: kk

Bleu Oleander: ha! just got that :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: me too...
Agatha Macbeth pokes Bleuji
Zen Arado: love roses - hated having to prune them
Bruce Mowbray: but it took me several seconds!
Bruce Mowbray: Ha!
Bleu Oleander: :P

Agatha Macbeth: Wonder why roses have thorns?
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Zon
Bleu Oleander: the better to prick you with
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zon :)
Agatha Macbeth: Ow
Bleu Oleander: hi Zon
Zen Arado: Hi Zon
Zon Kwan: hey all
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps for the same "reason" that cacti have spines.. needles....
Zen Arado: protection
Eliza Madrigal: I love the way roses have oils... maybe the thorns protect the essence
Bruce Mowbray: Those that could protect themselves from predators made it into the next generation.

Agatha Macbeth: Makes you wonder why all plants don't have them then
Zen Arado: they have other means
Wol Euler: and other predators
Bleu Oleander: all humans too
Agatha Macbeth: Thorny subject?
Eliza Madrigal: some plants have to trick insects to come and distribute their gifts, lol
Zen Arado: vegetables we eat have toxins
Bruce Mowbray: Indeed, aggers, but some ANIMALS even have them.
Agatha Macbeth: Thorns?
Bruce Mowbray: yes, or spines.
Agatha Macbeth: Oh, spines
Agatha Macbeth: Right
Bruce Mowbray: not the backbone kind...
Agatha Macbeth: Porky pines
Bruce Mowbray: the needle-like kind.
Bruce Mowbray: sry.
Agatha Macbeth: I get the point

Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Bleu Oleander: got that one ha ha!
Bruce Mowbray: I caught THAT one in about one second!
Bruce Mowbray: I'm getting better!
Agatha Macbeth pokes Bleu again
Bleu Oleander: :P

Agatha Macbeth: Sorry, what were we talking about?
Bruce Mowbray: edges.
Bleu Oleander: thorns
Eliza Madrigal: barbed wire?
Bleu Oleander: thorny edges
Eliza Madrigal: mhm
Zon Kwan: protection
 

Eliza Madrigal: what edges did you feel when watching Zorba last night Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: [13:14] Eliza: occasionally I find myself in a situation, or even watching a film, when I realize I'm being challenged in a way I find exhilarating and scary [13:14] Agatha Macbeth: 0.0
Eliza Madrigal: what challenges?
Bruce Mowbray: LIFE!
Zen Arado: never quite got the 'edges' idea
Bruce Mowbray: Living it the way ZORBA did!
Bruce Mowbray: and fear....
Bruce Mowbray: the fear of the villagers...
Agatha Macbeth: Perennial philosophy?
Bruce Mowbray: and anger/revenge...
Bruce Mowbray: scary.
Bruce Mowbray: Lots of stuff, actually.
Bruce Mowbray: no, not that, actually.

Bleu Oleander: never respected edges when coloring as a child ... still don't :)
Bruce Mowbray: but maybe the monks in the forest monastery knew about it.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I really tried to stay in the edges as a child, seemed my nature wouldn't allow it :)
Zen Arado: depends how you feel about falling off the edge I guess
Eliza Madrigal: I still want to!
Agatha Macbeth: Close to the edge
Bleu Oleander: my father told me to go outside the lines
Bruce Mowbray: "Staying inside the edges" has never been a major strength for my typist... although he has sincerely tried, honest.
Eliza Madrigal: fortunate, Bleu
Zen Arado: some like nice safe secure rules and regulations
Bleu Oleander: indeed
Bruce Mowbray: You were blessed with a wise father, bleu.
Zen Arado: but I fear they are a false security
Wol Euler smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: the most vivid film I can think of that pushed at edges is Truman Show
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhh.
Agatha Macbeth: Harry?

Zen Arado: maybe if you think there is an 'unseen order' behind everything
Agatha Macbeth: Hello San
Eliza Madrigal: or don't think so, but realize you believe that
Santoshima Resident: hi
Zen Arado: as William James said and is quoted in new course
Eliza Madrigal: Hi San :)
Wol Euler: hello san
Zen Arado: Hi San
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120382/
Bleu Oleander: hi san
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, San-ji!
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Zon-ji!
Zen Arado: I don't
Zen Arado: it borders on religious belief

Zon Kwan: we are sitting on a globe in the air speeding through universe, how can we think we are safe?

Bruce Mowbray: an "implicit order"?
Eliza Madrigal: we have to, in order to function
Bruce Mowbray: as the quantum physicists say.
Zen Arado: we go along with probabilities
Zen Arado: patterns
Zon Kwan: function in which way?
Eliza Madrigal: so we can philosophize and acknowledge facts, but as far as what we experience... that seems opposite at times, to what we know?
Zen Arado: but knowing they can change anytime
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, our biological systems - including neurological - are a-tuned to find patterns immediately, or asap....
Zen Arado: comforting to think there is an entity in control
Zon Kwan: there is no safety or certainty in life
Bruce Mowbray: so, "order" is part of our very biology.
Zen Arado: but maybe there is no one at the helm

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Having done my time with parents, teachers, and authorities of all sorts, I am now happy to have NO ONE at the helm but little me . . . and I'm happy to take my chances with the edge-stuff on my own (and fortunate to be FREE to do that.)

Zen Arado: it isn't the edge..it's what we fear is over the edge?
Zen Arado: nothing safe and predictable?
Bruce Mowbray: "Find your own light." -- the Buddha
Bruce Mowbray: If you need predictability, then go for that.
Bruce Mowbray: or go for authorities.

Zen Arado: ha we now know who sang the most Buddhis song
Bruce Mowbray: or go for an edge-less world (Good luck!)
Bruce Mowbray: but one can hardly call that "Free."
Bruce Mowbray: And THAT was what ZORBA said.
Bruce Mowbray: Unless a man has a little madness, he never dares break the ropes and be free.
Zen Arado: some need a feeling of structure
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Zon Kwan: if all is predictable, how boring would that be
Zen Arado: some more than others
Bruce Mowbray: (My typist has PLENTY of madness to go around.)
Zon Kwan: no need to live it

Zen Arado: if every day was totally predictable we might go mad
Eliza Madrigal: there IS a kind of freedom when in being dwarfed/humbled/awed ... like, fortunate to come upon expanses of stars
Zen Arado: so our minds make it seem predictable perhaps?
Wol Euler: agree
Eliza Madrigal: takes one beyond the edge of themselves

Bruce Mowbray: not even a single nano-second is "for sure" predictable. . . . but you gotta consider scale...
Wol Euler: I think if one knew one's own future, one would probably jump off the next-best bridge
Bruce Mowbray: I have enough challenge dealing with my own present, thanks.
Bleu Oleander: unless you knew that was your future
Zon Kwan: happiness is in the uncertainty
Zen Arado: then we get shocks when reality suddenly veers away from our expectations with a horrible jolt
Bleu Oleander: might stay away from bridges lol
Wol Euler: heheeh true
Bruce Mowbray: but I am also well familiarized with nearby bridges.
Zen Arado: bridge a good metaphor

Bruce Mowbray: "bridge" is as good a metaphor as "gate" -- another excellent one!
Bruce Mowbray: in fact,
Bruce Mowbray: a gate is a sort of bridge, isn't it?
Eliza Madrigal: indeed
Agatha Macbeth: Bill Bridges
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Zen Arado: bridges join edges
Wol Euler: yes, all thresholds are the same really :)

Agatha Macbeth: Liminal
Zon Kwan: gates allows entrance in unknown
Bruce Mowbray remembers when he first encountered and learned the term "liminal"
Bruce Mowbray: psychology.
Agatha Macbeth smiles
Bruce Mowbray: Winnicott.
Bruce Mowbray: liminal space.
Bruce Mowbray: transitional objects.
Bruce Mowbray: Teddy Bears.
Agatha Macbeth loves teddy bears
Bruce Mowbray sits on hands.
Santoshima Resident: & the "good enough" mother
Bruce Mowbray: yes, the good enough mother.
Santoshima Resident: (if i remember correctly)
Bruce Mowbray: That was Winnicott.

Bruce Mowbray: a special rose goes to you, San!
Santoshima Resident: bless him
Wol Euler smiles.
Bruce Mowbray: hee hee.
Agatha Macbeth: Mind the thorns

Zen Arado: Winnie the Pooh was better
Bruce Mowbray: Also, Milne: Peter Rabbit
Zen Arado: at least I have heard about him
Agatha Macbeth: The tao of Pooh
Zen Arado: :)
Bruce Mowbray: How about the Te of Pooh?
Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
Bleu Oleander: my bear is better than your bear ha ha!
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!
Agatha Macbeth: The bear facts
Bruce Mowbray: Yikes!
Bleu Oleander: bear edges
Agatha Macbeth: Can't bear it
Zen Arado: getting subliminal
Bruce Mowbray wonders if bears have thorns.....
Agatha Macbeth: They have hunny
Bruce Mowbray: AHHH!
Bruce Mowbray: for sure!
Bleu Oleander: they're gummy
Agatha Macbeth: That too

Zen Arado: funny I know what subliminal is but not liminal...
Bruce Mowbray: I saw a photo of a lion hugging a man today. It brought me to an "edge," and it warmed my heart.
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe your sub sank
Zen Arado: yeh saw that
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bruce Mowbray: GREAT, wasn't it?
Zen Arado: a dangerous occupation I thought
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that was the "edge."
Agatha Macbeth: The lion in winter
Bruce Mowbray: nope, the lion in the Sahara, I think it was.
Zen Arado: one swipe from those huge paws and...



Eliza Madrigal: ah, really nice description of "liminal" in wikipedia (whole page worth reading):

In anthropology, liminality (from the Latin word līmen, meaning "a threshold"[1]) is the quality of ambiguity or disorientation that occurs in the middle stage of rituals, when participants no longer hold their pre-ritual status but have not yet begun the transition to the status they will hold when the ritual is complete.

During a ritual's liminal stage, participants "stand at the threshold" between their previous way of structuring their identity, time, or community, and a new way, which the ritual establishes.

Eliza Madrigal: (sorry not to warn)
Agatha Macbeth: It applies to dreams too
Wol Euler smiles.
Zen Arado: another word for edge then
Zen Arado: ?

Agatha Macbeth: Edging closer

Bruce Mowbray: http://twistedsifter.com/2013/09/my-...icolai-rossen/
Bleu Oleander: more of a fuzzy edge perhaps
Zen Arado: an edge leading somewhere
Agatha Macbeth: Fuzzy logic
Zen Arado: joined to another edge

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: there is a shakiness... that is exactly what idea I began trying to describe... nice to arrive there without trying
Bruce Mowbray: http://twistedsifter.files.wordpress...n-rossen-3.jpg

Zen Arado: who here thinks they are living on the edge?
Agatha Macbeth: Edge of what?
Bruce Mowbray: I do.
Zen Arado: of their ability to cope with life I guess
Zon Kwan: hopes so
Wol Euler: depends what you mean by edge. I would say yes to certain values of that
Bruce Mowbray slaps his typist, tells him to return to sitting on hands, and to listen, for a change.
Wol Euler: but not in the rock-n-roll way
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Eliza Madrigal: yeah...

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ari :)
Arisia Vita: greetings all
Agatha Macbeth: Rock n, roll!
Zon Kwan: whats wrong in rock n roll?
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, ARI! MY MAN!
Bleu Oleander: hi Ari
Eliza Madrigal: I live on the edge in some areas... can relate to that
Zen Arado: Hi Ari
Agatha Macbeth: Hello dear Ari
Arisia Vita: always Bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome to the land of giant roses, Ari!
Wol Euler: hello ari
Bruce Mowbray: (returns to sitting on hands.)
Zon Kwan: hi Ari
Wol Euler: nothing at all, zon, just that it isn't what I mean
Arisia Vita: giant roses and great friends :)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bruce Mowbray: 
Eliza Madrigal: great roses and giant friends

Zen Arado: or maybe we all live on the edge but don't admit it?
Zen Arado: the impermanence of life doesn't make for security
Bleu Oleander: not sure what you mean Zen
Eliza Madrigal: okay one example I think we all can relate to... having been in SL for a while, is, whether one lives here as though it is a different place with different rules
Agatha Macbeth: Don't say we Zenny
Zon Kwan: isnt growth just that?'

Wol Euler: I've been thinking ever since I heard of L'Wren Scott's suicide about living close to that edge, and how sometimes one just gets pulled over
Bruce Mowbray: For my typist, it is a "different place with different rules, yes.
Agatha Macbeth: Like Ian curtis maybe
Eliza Madrigal: do you imagine that is what it is like Wol, pulled over?
Bleu Oleander: actually sl seems a lot like rl to me
Zen Arado: maybe if I don't worry about edges or falling into the abyss they don't exist?
Bruce Mowbray hums sseveral "Rolling Stones" songs -- all at once.
Agatha Macbeth: With more sex

Wol Euler: yes, I can imagine her situation feeling like that, yes, like a ship at sea sucked into a vortex
Bruce Mowbray: And how do you imagine Mick Jagger feels about now?
Zen Arado: from the outside she had everything going for her
Wol Euler: indeed zen, that's part of what's so awful about it
Wol Euler: the false front
Bleu Oleander: it's all about the inside though
Eliza Madrigal: I imagine it like climbing and climbing and forgetting how to live normally...how to come back to earth
Zen Arado: an invisible edge
Zen Arado: maybe edges are manufactured
Bruce Mowbray: so, there really IS a reality, after all... to return to?
Zen Arado: (didn't say 'we')
Wol Euler: admittedly, Manhattan seems to be an awful place for social distress
Eliza Madrigal: :) Zen
Bleu Oleander: Manhattan?
Wol Euler: http://nypost.com/2014/03/23/scotts-...-glitzy-scene/
Bruce Mowbray: "It's a great place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there."
Wol Euler: the specific example(s) are from there
Bleu Oleander: was great place to live
Zen Arado: reality?
Zen Arado: :)

Zon Kwan: are we talking of edges as protection barriers or as something we are bound to step over one time?
Eliza Madrigal: there is a pressure in that environment, that can be both exciting but maybe ... fear of losing...
Zen Arado: places we are afraid of?
Agatha Macbeth: An edge is something you fall off
Zen Arado: like going too far..in my society
Zon Kwan: then its negative
Eliza Madrigal: "places that scare you" I think applies, but not limited to
Eliza Madrigal: (@Bleu, loose end) the opportunity is there to live differently in SL I think, but only with others who do that... I feel I stepped off that edge at some point, but have tasted what it would be like
Bruce Mowbray: NEW York is CONSTANT stimulation to the physical and psychological systems -- when that is "absent," one can feel might lost, indeed.
Zen Arado: 'don't make an exhibition of yourself'

Bleu Oleander: are u calling me a loose end? ha ha!!
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Bleu Oleander: lol
Zen Arado: good way to be perhaps
Agatha Macbeth: Loose edge
Zen Arado: at a loose end
Bleu Oleander: phew that's better!
Eliza Madrigal catches herself at close to "crazy cat lady" status at times

Bruce Mowbray: If you do fall off, be sure you're not clinging on to something.
Wol Euler smiles.
Bruce Mowbray: Make it a FREE fall.
Zen Arado: not tight and constrained
Agatha Macbeth: Like Prokofy
Zen Arado: whats that saying about jumping without a parachute?
Eliza Madrigal: well, fruitful topic that refuses to stay in the lines :)
Agatha Macbeth: Don't do it?
Eliza Madrigal: hahah Agatha
Wol Euler: hehehehe
Zon Kwan: enjoy it, its a once in a lifetime experience
Agatha Macbeth: As yossarian said 'Where's my chute?'
Wol Euler: "it's a job for life, but not for long"


Zen Arado: reminds me of the story of the strawberry and the tigers :)
Wol Euler listens.
Agatha Macbeth: What an amazing film that was
Zen Arado: you all know it I am sure
Eliza Madrigal: I don't think so...
Bleu Oleander listens

Zen Arado: a man is chased of a cliff by a tiger
Zen Arado: he manages to clutch a vine
Zen Arado: he oks down and there is another tiger at the base of the cliff
Zen Arado: and a mouse starts nibbling at the vine
Zen Arado: then he seea a big strawberry and eats it
Zen Arado: and it is deelicious
Zen Arado: :)
Bleu Oleander: his last meal?
Eliza Madrigal: :)

--BELL--

Zon Kwan: view of life
Agatha Macbeth: Is that a Buddhist thing?
Eliza Madrigal: :P shh
Zen Arado: yep
Bleu Oleander: strawberries?
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Zon Kwan: enjoy uncertainty
Agatha Macbeth: Probably why I don't understand it
Bleu Oleander: speaking of not respecting edges :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Shhh
Bleu Oleander: Shhh :P
Eliza Madrigal: don't cross this line ----
Zon Kwan: brakes rules
Eliza Madrigal: ---- okay, this one
Wol Euler smiles.
Eliza Madrigal: haha sorry, rebellioin :)
Zon Kwan: :)
Santoshima Resident: (pajama party)
Bleu Oleander: good to do once and a while

Zen Arado: ha a woman at my meditation group got really angry about that story
Eliza Madrigal: for sure
Zen Arado: said it was stupid
Wol Euler grins.
Agatha Macbeth: She was right
Bruce Mowbray: really what?
Eliza Madrigal: is that what is meant by honey on the razor's edge?
Zon Kwan: reminds me of the story of Job

Santoshima Resident: maybe she never tasted wild strawberries
Zen Arado: living in the present
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: kk, angry.
Zen Arado: if you could enjoy a strawberry in that predicament
Eliza Madrigal: many who come to the edge of their lives find it liberating to let go of what they didn't see they had been holding
Bruce Mowbray: I understand why she might do that, especially if she interpreted the story literally.
Zen Arado: that is living in the moment
Zen Arado: also an analogy of life
Zen Arado: yes exactly Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: tigers to the left of me, tigers to the right...
Zon Kwan: eat strawberry when life offers it to you
Bruce Mowbray: Mythic "reality" holds SO MUCH more "truth" than "literal" reality.
Zen Arado: if we could do that now though
Eliza Madrigal: like came up earlier, I think most do in some areas and not in others
Zen Arado: we are all going to hit base
 

Holy Sepulcher Chapel, Michelsberg Cloister, Bamberg.
https://www.facebook.com/OrderoftheGoodDeath?fref=ts

Arisia Vita: it's been great being with you all but a friend needs me so I will go and help....be well and happy
Zen Arado: so enjoy the strawberry
Arisia Vita: see you all again soon
Zen Arado: byee Ari
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Ari
Eliza Madrigal: bye Ari, be happy
Bleu Oleander: c u Ari
Zon Kwan: bye Ari
Zen Arado: wondr why no friends ever need me?
Arisia Vita: I am always happy when helping
Zen Arado: hmm
Eliza Madrigal: heheh Zen

Bruce Mowbray: Zorba continually created mythic illusions for those he loved... I felt that was compassionate on his part.

Arisia Vita: oh Zen.... :)
Arisia Vita: I know better
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, GOOD ARI !
Zen Arado: guess I am pretty useless
Arisia Vita: pffft
Wol Euler: awwwww
Wol Euler: bye ari
Zen Arado: :(
Arisia Vita: I'll be back to help you Zen... :)
Zen Arado: eats strawberry
Agatha Macbeth: Too busy eating strawberries
Wol Euler: "they also serve who only stand and play music" :)
Zon Kwan: to be useless is very zen
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Arisia Vita: bye for a bit
Eliza Madrigal: Zon :)
Zen Arado: heheh right Zon
Wol Euler nods.
Bleu Oleander: ha! Zon
Eliza Madrigal: interesting places this session has gone ^.^
Wol Euler: really :)
Zen Arado: over edges?
Bruce Mowbray: lots of edges, huh?
Bleu Oleander: edgy
Bruce Mowbray: snap!
Bruce Mowbray: Yikes!
Agatha Macbeth: Supercalifragilisticexpealidocious
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Zen Arado: even spelled right
Bruce Mowbray: Tupence, tupence....

Zen Arado: worries about Aggers
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: I'm worried about me too
Bruce Mowbray: not to worry, you have the necessary madness to be Free.
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh it helps
Eliza Madrigal: "don't worry, there is nothing real about your confusion"
Santoshima Resident: see ya
Eliza Madrigal: bye San :)
Santoshima Resident: "keep on rocking in the free world" (neil young)
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Sanji
Bleu Oleander: that's when you should worry ha!
Wol Euler: bye san, take care
Zon Kwan: dont worry, you cant help it

Zen Arado: bye San
Bleu Oleander: bye san
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, good San!
Zen Arado: nobody answered my question
Zon Kwan: bye San
Agatha Macbeth: Which one?
Eliza Madrigal: about living on the edge?
Zon Kwan: what was it?
Bleu Oleander: what ?
Zen Arado: who sings the most Buddhist song?
Bleu Oleander: Mick
Agatha Macbeth: Beastie Boys?
Wol Euler: hmmmmmm
Bruce Mowbray: [14:06] Zen: over edges?
Zen Arado: yeh but you read the course Bleu:)
Wol Euler: John Cage :)
Eliza Madrigal: give it away give it away give it away now...
Bleu Oleander: sorry
Bleu Oleander: can't get no . . .
Bruce Mowbray is a great admirer of John Cage.
Zen Arado: got the first part
Bruce Mowbray: but can't stand his "music."
Zen Arado: Mick
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Bruce Mowbray: OH. That "jaggered" edge.
Eliza Madrigal: the first noble truth
Zen Arado: 'I cain't get no satisfaction'
Agatha Macbeth hits Bruce
Zen Arado: yep
Bruce Mowbray: ouch!
Bruce Mowbray: Yikes!

Bleu Oleander: are we looking for a continual state of satisfaction?
Agatha Macbeth: :p
Agatha Macbeth: Send for the viagra
Zen Arado: or life is always just a bit unsatisfactory
Bleu Oleander: lol
Wol Euler: mu
Agatha Macbeth: Moo
Zen Arado: dukkha
Bruce Mowbray: A few cheap thrills -- I mean real pleasure/joy/happiness - are enough for me, thanks.

Zon Kwan: we cant be satisfied
Wol Euler: we make ourselves dissatisfied by hoping for satisfaction
Bruce Mowbray: I can.
Eliza Madrigal: freedom in a bit of stoicism
Zon Kwan: nope
Bruce Mowbray: (be satisfied.)
Zon Kwan: nope
Bruce Mowbray: All I need to do is bring my desires into range.
Zen Arado: he could have used 'You cain't always get what you want' too
Eliza Madrigal: but a trap to be pessimistic (I think)
Zon Kwan: life is desire
Bruce Mowbray: a mere beam on sunlight on the window sill, sheer ecstasy.
Zen Arado: Mick is a great Buddhist teacher
Agatha Macbeth: Let it bleed
Bleu Oleander: who's pessimistic?
Bruce Mowbray: not moi!
Zen Arado: but you get what you need
Wol Euler: satisfaction and happiness have the same paradox, that if you are trying to find them you cannot
Eliza Madrigal: well I think that's what grips some at some moments
Agatha Macbeth: Got any grapes?
Bruce Mowbray: "You'll find sometimes, that you get what you need." -- Jagger and crew.

Zen Arado: strawberry is enough for me
Bruce Mowbray: YES!
Bruce Mowbray: ONE strawberry is sufficient.
Zon Kwan: then you need something else
Zon Kwan: and on and on it goes
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
Zen Arado: just enjoy the next thng too
Bruce Mowbray: Don't want to go to that edge.,
Zon Kwan: yes
Zen Arado: forget about the tigers
Eliza Madrigal: "live like you were dying"
Bruce Mowbray: Yes!
Zon Kwan: enjoy next desire

Bleu Oleander: so what's the take home message from this session? or is there one?
Bruce Mowbray: and HUG THE LION!
Eliza Madrigal: http://www.tricycle.com/blog/newslee...uth-discovered
Wol Euler: O.O
Bruce Mowbray: http://twistedsifter.files.wordpress...n-rossen-3.jpg
Eliza Madrigal: not sure Bleu... for me it is about liminality, of all things :)
Bleu Oleander: fuzzy edges?

--BELL--

Zen Arado: I better go have tea
Eliza Madrigal: conscious and unconscious thresholds
Agatha Macbeth: And strawberries
Eliza Madrigal: :) Bye Zen
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, good Zen!
Zen Arado: (in lieu of strawberry)
Zen Arado: byee
Zon Kwan: bye Zen, you are needed
Bleu Oleander: I thought strawberries were enough?
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Zen
Wol Euler: bye zen
Eliza Madrigal imagines the poor guy who doesn't like strawberries and finds himself in that predicament
Agatha Macbeth: Perhaps blueberries are better

Bleu Oleander: what is the 5th noble truth?

Eliza Madrigal: guess he just laughs at the sky
Eliza Madrigal: Oh... 5th?
Agatha Macbeth: The one after the 4th
Eliza Madrigal: “We can now say with absolute scientific certainty that suffering, the first noble truth, is an inability to accept life as it is, while the second noble truth, the cause of suffering, is bad social conditioning. Research strongly suggests that the third noble truth is that suffering can’t be ended but it can be managed, while the fourth noble truth, the path for the management of suffering, corresponds to learning an attitude of mindful acceptance.”

“The newly discovered fifth noble truth is that all other noble truths are subject to change without notice,” added Briss. “Obviously, this last truth is the noblest of the five.”

Bleu Oleander: lol
Wol Euler chuckles.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bleu Oleander: everything is subject to change :)
Bruce Mowbray: ACCEPT what is.
Eliza Madrigal: and objects in the mirror are...
Agatha Macbeth: Including underwear
Bruce Mowbray: (Jeff Foster?)
Eliza Madrigal giggling a lot... some joy in working with life as it is, no matter how baffling, scary, wonderful
Bleu Oleander: accept what is unless you don't want to :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: no matter how changing, too.
Wol Euler nods to Eliza
Bruce Mowbray: nanosecond by nanosecond....

Bruce Mowbray: So, if one truly accepts all the changes, one has finally made it?
Zon Kwan: accept and stop suffering
Bleu Oleander: made what?
Eliza Madrigal: not sure one can make it, cept for moments
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, you good people, maybe we should start a new religion. What do you think? (JUST KIDDING!)
Bruce Mowbray: Yikes!
Eliza Madrigal: have some sense that "all is in oder"
Bruce Mowbray: Yikes!
Bruce Mowbray: Yikes!
Eliza Madrigal: order, lol
Zon Kwan: we need many new ones
Bruce Mowbray: everything stinks?
Zon Kwan: as many as we are
Wol Euler: I don't think there is a "made it" actually, short of fullblown enlightenment
Eliza Madrigal: as many religions as people
Bleu Oleander: glad you put the "lol" after "order"
Bruce Mowbray: all is in odor.
Bruce Mowbray: Well, there you go.
Zon Kwan: be a light unto yourself
Eliza Madrigal fragrance wafts across pond
Bruce Mowbray: Led around by my nose again.

Bleu Oleander: what is "fullblown enlightenment"?
Agatha Macbeth: He nose you know
Bruce Mowbray: Huh?
Wol Euler: enlightenment.
Bruce Mowbray: Sits on hands and wait for someone else to answer that one.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler: the nirvana thing. becoming buddha.
Zon Kwan: be
Eliza Madrigal: perhaps many ideas about that too
Bleu Oleander: are we becoming buddha?
Bruce Mowbray: I don't WANT to be Buddha. I want to be ME!

Wol Euler: hehe, there are so many answers to that
Wol Euler: well at least two
Bruce Mowbray: That's the "zen" of ZORBA, folks.
Bruce Mowbray: Be yourself.
Bruce Mowbray: and enjoy it.
Agatha Macbeth: As far as i know I'm not sure

Wol Euler: 1) yes, in the way that "all is God", we are all becoming buddha.
Wol Euler: 2) no.

Bleu Oleander: being me is hard enough :)
Agatha Macbeth: Thou art God
Zon Kwan: and zorba the buddha
Wol Euler nods.
Bruce Mowbray: Prefers answer "1"
Eliza Madrigal likes staying in the unanswered place on this one
Wol Euler smiles.

Zon Kwan: becoming something else we are?
Bruce Mowbray: Whew! I'm feeling like I've reached another "edge."
Bleu Oleander: on the edge?

Wol Euler: this is of course just my opinion. Yours may vary. Feel free to discuss.
Bruce Mowbray: yeppers.
Eliza Madrigal: sharp and open
Bleu Oleander: so fences ... our next topic?
Eliza Madrigal: hehe, OK
Bruce Mowbray: Your opinion is of great value. Please don't say "just my opinion."
Wol Euler smiles.
Agatha Macbeth: De fences
Bruce Mowbray: (Let my typist do that!)

Wol Euler: good fences make good neighbours, as they say
Wol Euler: Robert Frost wrote about them too actually, I think
Bruce Mowbray: Now that's a Frost-y approach.
Agatha Macbeth: Oh him
Eliza Madrigal: fences, boundaries... a very good topic
Eliza Madrigal: somewhat the same
Bruce Mowbray: I think Winnicott would agree with Frost, btw.
Wol Euler: yes. http://writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/8...t-mending.html
Zon Kwan: we need boundaries to be free
Bleu Oleander: but we can nuance them I'm sure :)
Eliza Madrigal: for sure
Eliza Madrigal clicks

Bruce Mowbray: He moves in darkness as it seems to me~ Not of woods only and the shade of trees. He will not go behind his father's saying, And he likes having thought of it so well He says again, "Good fences make good neighbors."

Agatha Macbeth: Don't take a fence
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: who doesn't love a wall? hehe
Agatha Macbeth: Pink Floyd
Eliza Madrigal went to an ice cream shop called Walls today
Bruce Mowbray: I do NOT love a wall.... unless it has vines growing on it.
Agatha Macbeth: Walls have ears

Eliza Madrigal: "No billboards in space"
Eliza Madrigal: (Carl Sagan)

Wol Euler: as an architect I am professionally obliged to love walls
Bruce Mowbray listens for more about the ice cream shop.
Agatha Macbeth: Makes a change from sausages
Wol Euler: or at least pretend to
Bleu Oleander: we are very wall happy society
Agatha Macbeth: Another brick in the wall
Eliza Madrigal: walls are communication aren't they... and sometimes display power in ways words won't
Bruce Mowbray: (Put vines on all your walls, Woly (!!!!)))
Agatha Macbeth: Good for posters
Zon Kwan: walls are building blocks to play with
Agatha Macbeth: And pictures
Bleu Oleander: walls can "say" stay out
Wol Euler: there#s an idea, paintings onthe outside and ivy on the inside
Bruce Mowbray: Walls a very important, of course.... with our without vines.
Eliza Madrigal: yes, while the signs on them say welcome
Bruce Mowbray: are*
Bruce Mowbray: or*
Agatha Macbeth: Ere
Bleu Oleander: exactly

Eliza Madrigal: kind of like "with our without vines"
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Bruce Mowbray: My "solitude" is a sort of wall, actually.
Agatha Macbeth: De vine
Eliza Madrigal: solitude when chosen, Bruce?

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: indeed, but mostly chosen.
Zon Kwan: a life form needs walls, otherwise its not a form
Bruce Mowbray: every cell needs a wall.
Bleu Oleander: but even skins and cell walls are porous

Bleu Oleander: have to go
Eliza Madrigal nods
Bleu Oleander: take care all
Wol Euler: bye bleu, osmote well
Bruce Mowbray: walls within walls....
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bleu, tc
Bleu Oleander: color outside the lines :)
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, good Wol!
Zon Kwan: bye all
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Bleuji
Agatha Macbeth: Love to the dogs
Wol Euler points to Bleu
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, good Bleu!

Eliza Madrigal: and inner fences.. to keep the rascal at bay, hehe
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm. Ponders those inner fences, and wishes to be done with them.
Bruce Mowbray: Let the rascal come!
Eliza Madrigal: freedom in discipline at times
Eliza Madrigal: but I guess everything to its time?

Bruce Mowbray: But, what about radical acceptance.....
Bruce Mowbray: ?
Bruce Mowbray: Does radical acceptance know about walls?
Eliza Madrigal: haha, maybe. but the rascal might not be the one to give the keys to the safe?
Bruce Mowbray: and rascals?
Agatha Macbeth: Better safe than sorry
Wol Euler: I think even radical acceptance allows for common sense
Eliza Madrigal: :::woohoo strawberries for everyone::::

Bruce Mowbray: But maybe he might be the PERFECT ONE to give you the keys!
Wol Euler: it doesn't mean lying down on the freeway on-ramp
Agatha Macbeth: And blueberries
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: And grapes
Eliza Madrigal bought plums today
Wol Euler: are they in the icebox?
Wol Euler grins.
Bruce Mowbray ponders the possibilities of lying down on freeway on-ramp.
Agatha Macbeth: Plum fed up
Wol Euler: if so I will steal them, and be sorry later
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eliza Madrigal: they aren't...but that's a good idea!

Bruce Mowbray: btw, I do NOT subscribe to the better-safe-than-sorry code.

Agatha Macbeth: Hamster*
Eliza Madrigal: well, in some ways you have arranged your life as suitable and with ability to choose solitudes?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Eliza.
Bruce Mowbray: A good point, to be sure.
Agatha Macbeth: Some choose solitude, some have it thrust upon them
Bruce Mowbray: and silences.
Eliza Madrigal: mmmm
Bruce Mowbray: mmmmm
Agatha Macbeth: mmmmmm

Eliza Madrigal: yes... a mad choice to some
Bruce Mowbray: for sure.
Bruce Mowbray: But for my typist, the best one.
Bruce Mowbray: for now,
Agatha Macbeth: It's a mad mad mad mad world
Bruce Mowbray: for this lifetime, at least.
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Eliza Madrigal: it is really hard to see where others push against their conditionings
Eliza Madrigal: what is brave and daring for one might look safe to another
Bruce Mowbray: indeed, good point, Liz.
Wol Euler nods.
Eliza Madrigal: like, when I watched a little video about a buddhist nun the other day.. it felt so easy, dropping out almost ... but I'm 'watching'
Eliza Madrigal: and find my edges in the chaos
Eliza Madrigal: my practice
Agatha Macbeth: Feed the birds

Bruce Mowbray: Solitude and silence were the scariest things of all -- in my childhood -- but now (70 years later) they are my most accommodating environments.
Eliza Madrigal: beautiful, Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: ty, it's true, actually.
Eliza Madrigal: do wonder why it is so hard to "just sit" actually.. seems like such a tiny thing

Bruce Mowbray: and now, alas, I must leave this GOOD assemblage.
Bruce Mowbray: THANK YOU, ALL!
Eliza Madrigal: OK, bye for now Bruce, thank you!
Bruce Mowbray: YOU are the true gate.
Wol Euler: thank you, bruce, take care
Bruce Mowbray: You are the true Edge.
Bruce Mowbray: You are Real!
Agatha Macbeth: Bye for now divine Brucie
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you for that!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!
Bruce Mowbray: I bow to you.
Agatha Macbeth: And Blubster
Agatha Macbeth: What a guy
Eliza Madrigal: there goes a good fellow :)

Wol Euler: there's probably a metaphor about being a gate and needing to be oiled, that could be made
Agatha Macbeth: Hinge and bracket
Eliza Madrigal: staying juicy?
Agatha Macbeth: 0.0
Wol Euler: not squeaking :)
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Eliza Madrigal: if not squeaky, forget the gate is there
Agatha Macbeth: Rust in time
Agatha Macbeth: Anybody fancy 10 mins meditation?
Wol Euler: love to

Eliza Madrigal: before we close shop, anything you wish to add to earlier thoughts, Wol?
Eliza Madrigal: Ohhhh
Wol Euler: another time, perhaps
Eliza Madrigal: good idea, that
Wol Euler: (not meaning to be dismissive, thank you for asking/offering)
Eliza Madrigal: not at all...
Eliza Madrigal: very hard to follow up on the deepest darkest threads.. though, without them we're just pretending at things :)
Wol Euler nods.

Eliza Madrigal: so to Zen retreat?
Wol Euler: let's go sit :)
Eliza Madrigal: Tara Ling may not be around much longer
Eliza Madrigal: :(
Agatha Macbeth: Tara King?
Agatha Macbeth: Oh
Eliza Madrigal: next to Zen Retreat... will show you