2014.03.30 07:00 - Buddhism and Psychology

The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.

Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
Korel Laloix: Osiyo
Bleu Oleander: hiya Kori
Bleu Oleander: how are you?
--BELL--
Korel Laloix: love the LBD.. looks good on you.
Korel Laloix: Great. just a bit tired.
Bleu Oleander: ty!
Bleu Oleander: bit tired myself :)
Korel Laloix: The first weekend I have really had off in a month or so... so really winding down a bit.
Bleu Oleander: nice to take a break!
Eliza Madrigal: 's current display-name is "Eliza".
Korel Laloix: brb
Bleu Oleander: hiya Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Morning Bleu, Kori
Bleu Oleander: lovely sunrise here
Eliza Madrigal: How's the day so far?
Bleu Oleander: early for me :)
Eliza Madrigal: sign of pleasant day ahead perhaps
Bleu Oleander: yes :)
Eliza Madrigal: thankfully, I haven't seen the sun rise all week (Spring Break for my son, so have been sleeping in just past sunrise)
Bleu Oleander: nice!
Bleu Oleander: somehow my pups won't let me do that
Bleu Oleander: same time every day lol
Eliza Madrigal: that's something to consider in puppy days to come
Eliza Madrigal: ^.^
Bleu Oleander: indeed!
Bleu Oleander: especially puppies
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aggers :)
Bleu Oleander: hey Aggers
Agatha Macbeth: Hello folks :)
Eliza Madrigal: I considered for an ever so brief moment, being a foster puppy care, for military etc... but have decided against that for now
Bleu Oleander: non stop puppies oh my!
Eliza Madrigal: yes, nonstop attachment and detachment @@
Bleu Oleander: too hard for me
Eliza Madrigal: that's what I decided too
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: and for son
Eliza Madrigal: maybe later in life ... does seem a positive thing to do
Bleu Oleander: yes, nothing like a puppy to keep you happy and healthy :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: any subjects to talk about today?
Eliza Madrigal: nothing springs to mind :)
Bleu Oleander: anyone taking the Buddhism and Psychology class?
Eliza Madrigal: I did sign up for that... once I made the connection to who was teaching it
Eliza Madrigal: but am not caught up on all videos
Bleu Oleander: interesting the discussion threads
Eliza Madrigal: haven't perused yet... am hoping to, but we'll see
Eliza Madrigal: what is being discussed?
Bleu Oleander: it all takes time!
Eliza Madrigal: very much so
Bleu Oleander: so many topics!!
Bleu Oleander: emotions and feelings is one
Bleu Oleander: natural selection another
Bleu Oleander: lots of Buddhism ideas
Eliza Madrigal: yes! you know, I've been studying buddhism for quite a few years now and had never heard someone describe it as a rebellion against natural selection
Bleu Oleander: me either
Eliza Madrigal: still going back and forth with how I feel about the idea
Bleu Oleander: I don't like the choice of words
Bleu Oleander: too war like
Eliza Madrigal: yes.... on the one hand, I do think there is a certain spirit of ...not rebellion but, questioning
Eliza Madrigal: and I like that
Eliza Madrigal: but on the other, what is being worked with is one's own mind..not a reaction against natural selection ...
Korel Laloix: Rebellion is a word that seems to have no defined limits in English though.
Korel Laloix: It can me like drinking decaf to causing a war.
Eliza Madrigal: true
Bleu Oleander: well the idea that one's mind has been created over a long time by natural selection perhaps
Korel Laloix: Sort of like the English work "love".. it is so broad that it does not mean anything.
Eliza Madrigal: maybe that's what he's saying, nods... but that would imply a lot more knowledge about mind than I think anyone has :)
Agatha Macbeth: Surely natural selection only creates physical things?
Eliza Madrigal nods @ Kori
Bleu Oleander: I think we do have quite a lot of knowledge of the brain and mind ... obviously not the whole story but making a lot of progress
Eliza Madrigal: our "tendencies" have developed, by and large, as a result of NS it seems
Eliza Madrigal: to bypass or question them, he sees, I guess as a form of rebellion
Bleu Oleander: someone like Antonio Damasio is doing some amazing work at USC
Agatha Macbeth: Depends how you define tendancies I guess :p
Eliza Madrigal: :)) too true
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: "tendencies" may be closer to lizard brain than a mind that is open, spontaneous... but creativity also has survival benefits.. so I think we're just updating our notions really fast atm
Bleu Oleander: we have a collection of universal emotions that genetics gives us
Agatha Macbeth needs to relog brb
Eliza Madrigal: hb Aggers
Bleu Oleander: for example fear, anger, sadness, happiness, disgust and surprise
Eliza Madrigal nods...
Bleu Oleander: these seem to be unlearned and automated and stable across cultures
Bleu Oleander: developed by NS
Eliza Madrigal nods... fight and flight, for instance
Bleu Oleander: social emotions are more cultural
Korel Laloix: So with our modern desires to purge certain emotions, do you think they will fade?
Eliza Madrigal: that's an interesting question
Bleu Oleander: I don't think we can purge them
Bleu Oleander: we can become conscious of them
Bleu Oleander: and develop strategies for dealing with them
Bleu Oleander: like meditation for example
Eliza Madrigal: I'd completely agree with that.... am not fond of suppression strategies - ie "Mr Spock"
Bleu Oleander: but they're there for a reason ... have helped us
Eliza Madrigal: place them in a wider context
Eliza Madrigal: I see it a bit like finding out the earth is not the center of the universe
Eliza Madrigal: not everything that had been learned or developed up to that point was wrong anymore, but had to be revised
Bleu Oleander: well that was our own knowledge not something given through NS
Eliza Madrigal: but NS develops in a certain scope ?
Bleu Oleander: changing our genome is a bit harder than changing our minds :)
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Bleu Oleander: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: all about time scale :P
Bleu Oleander: just think how hard it is to change our minds lol
Eliza Madrigal: wb Aggers :) hope better now
Bleu Oleander: hey Aggers
Korel Laloix: heya
Eliza Madrigal: my mind is often running ahead of my body
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: dragging it along... c'mon....
Agatha Macbeth: TY
Bleu Oleander: that's probably a good thing ha!
Bleu Oleander: keeps you from bumping into things hehe
Eliza Madrigal: if up to my mind I've had grown many more arms by now, and who knows what else
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Bleu Oleander: in the class they were suggesting that feeling weren't real
Eliza Madrigal: but Kori's question is interesting... if we 'could' would we (humanity) phase out more painful emotions?
Eliza Madrigal: ah
Bleu Oleander: well we can probably ... drugs and chips lol
Eliza Madrigal: exactly
Agatha Macbeth: Think the point of pain is a warning something is wrong...
Bleu Oleander: perhaps that's why we drink so much
Eliza Madrigal: what if the level of "something wrong" is far beyond fixable
Agatha Macbeth: So anesthatising is actually dangerous
Bleu Oleander: that's when the rational mind should kick in
Bleu Oleander: tell you to get help with your feelings
Bleu Oleander: not just take drugs
Eliza Madrigal: yeah, I feel that's the outlook of modern medicine... as though until/unless there is something hugely innovative that comes along, the best that can be done is make people more comfortable and functional for work
Bleu Oleander: so mindfulness meditation can help I think
Eliza Madrigal: agree
Bleu Oleander: become aware of our feelings
Agatha Macbeth: It's basically to take the workload off the doctors I think
Bleu Oleander: well even networks of friends can help
Bleu Oleander: like this :)
Agatha Macbeth: Ha yes
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
Korel Laloix: That is very true. this place does help me sort things out.
Bleu Oleander: family, friends, groups etc.
Bleu Oleander: someone to talk with
Bleu Oleander: goes a long way
Bleu Oleander: more serious problems need more
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: just somewhere to check in is often helpful
Agatha Macbeth nods
Bleu Oleander: our social conditioning is so important ... sometimes I think we do more for puppies than for children lol
Eliza Madrigal: in giving secure boundaries?
Bleu Oleander: much of our problems are social
Agatha Macbeth: They both need love ;)
Bleu Oleander: yes!
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Eliza Madrigal: we all need love
Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
Eliza Madrigal: "culture" is a concept, ultimately
Agatha Macbeth: God yes
Bleu Oleander: of course
Bleu Oleander: but very real
Agatha Macbeth: Perceived differently by different people
Bleu Oleander: and very influential
Korel Laloix: That is so true.
Eliza Madrigal: that's probably what people question more than Natural Selection
Bleu Oleander: has a huge impact
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eliza Madrigal: first you have to see it
Bleu Oleander: well its something we can work on
Bleu Oleander: creating a better environment
Agatha Macbeth smiles
Bleu Oleander: conducive to better living for more
Eliza Madrigal: we seem to be in a phase where a lot more people are seeing things more clearly, but the systems in place seem so entrenched
Agatha Macbeth: True that
Bleu Oleander: I would argue with that
Bleu Oleander: I don't think anyone sees things that clearly today ha ha!
Bleu Oleander: so complex
Eliza Madrigal: relative to say, 10 years ago?
Eliza Madrigal: some divisions seem starker to me... thus more clear in some ways
Bleu Oleander: I don't remember 10 years age to compare really
Bleu Oleander: its just that the more I look into the more questions there are
Bleu Oleander: what's clear to you?
Eliza Madrigal: hmm, nods... well I was going to ask for an example of what you are looking into
Eliza Madrigal: hehhe
Agatha Macbeth: There are more questions than answers as Johnny Nash said
Eliza Madrigal: means we're alive?
Bleu Oleander: well its a bottomless pit
Agatha Macbeth: Could be
Bleu Oleander: endless interesting things to explore
FcSeeker Resident: 's current display-name is "FcSeeker".
Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
Agatha Macbeth: FC :)
Bleu Oleander: who are we? where are we?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi FC
Bleu Oleander: hi Fc
Eliza Madrigal: twinkle twinkle little star... how I wonder what we are...
Agatha Macbeth: Good to see you again
Korel Laloix: Heya
FcSeeker Resident: Hello all *
Agatha Macbeth: Panda time :)
Eliza Madrigal: considering... and yes I can see how you're right in many ways Bleu... if I think that things have changed or are getting brighter, it is mostly a sampling of my direct environment and focus of attention
FcSeeker Resident: ty
Eliza Madrigal: but I think more people could say the same :)
Bleu Oleander: yes I think we can feel we have a grip on things
Bleu Oleander: but thats a feeling
Eliza Madrigal: it is context too, that I don't look at outer circumstances to gage as much
Bleu Oleander: that's a perspective and a subjective view
Eliza Madrigal: nods.. may be a realm of privilege
Bleu Oleander: which we all have
Bleu Oleander: perhaps none more "right" than any other in some sense?
Eliza Madrigal: 10 years ago I knew no one personally, that I could have a talk like this with... just a few people on message boards
Bleu Oleander: what is most helpful? we struggle to answer that
Bleu Oleander: yes, networks of people to talk with and trust is very important
Eliza Madrigal: (and my kids whether they liked it or not, lol)
Agatha Macbeth: Trust is a hard thing I find
Bleu Oleander: yes! family can be great
Agatha Macbeth grins @ Liz
Korel Laloix: I think just being there to talk with grandma is the most important support that I give her... all the physical stuff is just secondary.
Eliza Madrigal: actually I'm not being fair... occasionally there were... but it just feels to me that the mainstream culture has opened up in some ways
Bleu Oleander: and she gives you?
Eliza Madrigal: *company* Kori?
--BELL--
Korel Laloix: Well.. she is the mother I really never had.... and that relationship is one of the most important.
Bleu Oleander: I find connecting with technology lacking a bit and contrasting to being live with someone quite a bit more
Bleu Oleander: ah thanks for the reminder Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: she is your ground, in a way Kori
Korel Laloix: But sometimes in methods like these, I am more open about some things.
Bleu Oleander: thats great for her and you!
Bleu Oleander: hi Zon
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Zon
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zon :)
Korel Laloix: The relative anonymity helps me open up.
Agatha Macbeth: Nice view :p
Eliza Madrigal: that's true... an important point
Bleu Oleander: agree that Kori
Zon Kwan: heya
Korel Laloix: Osiyo
Eliza Madrigal: people are no longer limited to family, which in some cases can be a very narrow influence
Bleu Oleander: but when that happens live its fantastic for me
Eliza Madrigal: indeed, Bleu... and I like the way you've cultivated that lifestyle
Bleu Oleander: the main thing is trust and closeness ... can be family or friends i think
Korel Laloix: And getting away from my home "family" was one of the best things that ever happened to me.
Agatha Macbeth smiles
Bleu Oleander: family not always the best for sure
Korel Laloix: Finding new ways of looking at things.
Eliza Madrigal: travel without having to be born into relative privilege
Korel Laloix: New perspectives, challenges, topics, etc
Eliza Madrigal: new edges :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Korel Laloix: True.. if I understand your meaning.
Eliza Madrigal: I grew almost at the very end of a dead end street... and that was the center of my universe for a long time...
Eliza Madrigal: didn't know it was a small frame until getting 'really' away for a bit
Eliza Madrigal: meeting people who challenged me
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: I'd been raised "not to talk back" or question elders, etc
Bleu Oleander: wow
Bleu Oleander: I was raised very "chatty"
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Korel Laloix: That was sort of beat into me as well growning up.
Eliza Madrigal: you said your dad told you to color out of the lines, Bleu ^^
Bleu Oleander: growing up in NYC area you have to learn to jump in
Bleu Oleander: yes Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: haha...yes see young kids out on skateboards going about their business like adults, in NYC
Eliza Madrigal: catching buses and subways... still hard for me
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: can't get a word in edgewise in my family lol
Korel Laloix: Sort of the same thing around here.... we give kids agro drivers permits at the age of 14 and you see them running combines for hours with no adult in site.
Eliza Madrigal: amazing to me
Eliza Madrigal: every once in a while I'd spend the night with a friend who had a talkative and happily argumentative family and was in complete wonder
Korel Laloix: Not may places in the world would you give a 14 year old a machine like that.
Bleu Oleander: like an alien group lol
Eliza Madrigal: true... increasingly less maybe Kori... litigiousness :)
Eliza Madrigal: YES, exactly like an alien group
Eliza Madrigal: like spying on another universe really
Bleu Oleander: so I didn't realize that until I moved to AZ
Bleu Oleander: had to slow down a bit lol
Eliza Madrigal: or speed others up? :)
Bleu Oleander: ha ha yes!
Agatha Macbeth: Accelerated cacti
Eliza Madrigal: hahahha
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: supergrow
Korel Laloix: I have always been hyper and manic... and sweeping those around me along at my pace... smiles
Bleu Oleander: so shall we make our way to our mtg?
Eliza Madrigal: I was terrified of asking questions...that's probably why my kids are so stubborn and argumentative now lol
Korel Laloix: Sometimes that does not go over well though.. lol
Agatha Macbeth: And we love you for it K :p
Eliza Madrigal smiles at Kor
Eliza Madrigal: exactly
Agatha Macbeth: Well, I do
Eliza Madrigal: we do :)
Korel Laloix smiles
Bleu Oleander: thanks all for coming!
Eliza Madrigal: OK...village hall awaits
Agatha Macbeth: VH here we come
Korel Laloix: Take care.... sorry... have to get to dance practice.
Eliza Madrigal: OK...happy dancing
Agatha Macbeth: Bye K, dance well
Eliza Madrigal: anyone need landmarks?
Korel Laloix: do na da go hv i
Agatha Macbeth: Coming FC and Zon?
Zon Kwan: where?
Agatha Macbeth: Village hall for Guardian Meeting
Zon Kwan: k
Agatha Macbeth: OK, foolow me
FcSeeker Resident: **