2015.06.09 13:00 - Developing character

What is character?

Darren Islar: anyone anything to discuss?
Bleu Oleander: I had an interesting one
Darren Islar: tell us Bleu
Bleu Oleander: character
Bleu Oleander: what is it?
Darren Islar: a, nice one, what about it?

Bruce Mowbray: 's current display-name is "Bruce".
Zon Kwan: hi Bruce
Darren Islar: hi Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Hi!
Avaline DeCuir: Hey Bruce
Bleu Oleander: hi Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Hi!

Bleu Oleander: what does it mean to say someone has character?
Avaline DeCuir: well in my experience it can be used as an insult ... kind of like sying that instead of saying they are weird
Bleu Oleander: not really meaning it that way
Darren Islar: or the other way around
Bleu Oleander: but yes like a character actor perhaps?
Bruce Mowbray: He/she has a moral compass -- is not devious -- knows who he/she is and what he/she stands for...

Moving on to Morality and the objectivity of it

Bleu Oleander: what is a moral compass and how do you get one?
Zon Kwan: a person who has rather permanent an coherent ways to act
Bleu Oleander: is it subjective?

ElanVitalo Resident: 's current display-name is "Elan".
Darren Islar: hey Elan
Zon Kwan: hi Elan
ElanVitalo Resident: Hi!
Bleu Oleander waves to Elan

Bleu Oleander: is it related to meaning of life or world view?
Darren Islar: In the end everything is subjective but moral standards need to be coherent with culture I suppose
Bleu Oleander: so cultural guidelines?
Bruce Mowbray: A moral compass is a "sense of the right thing" -- and yes, it is subjective, although in a high-tone society, most folks would agree about what' "right" -- or they would agree, at least, with what criteria should be used to determine what's right.
Avaline DeCuir: but if you live in a counry that has many different cultures ... who's morals should you take as law> and why?
Bleu Oleander: yes exactly
Zon Kwan: your own character
Bleu Oleander: is it just a "feeling" of what's right?
Darren Islar: There is also a personal standard if it comes to moralism, I think a healthy character is open to morality in itself, open to how other cultures might use it
Bruce Mowbray: Does this multi-cultural country have some way of codifying it's laws?
Avaline DeCuir: well in Australia it seems to be a matter of we were here first so our laws go .. except white man wasn't here first
Bruce Mowbray: hmmmmm.
Darren Islar: I think "feeling" is based on conditioning, experiences and character
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bruce Mowbray: Similar to America . . . (Whites we're here first, either.)
Bruce Mowbray: were NOT here first*
Bleu Oleander: so perhaps feeling may not be enough to know what is right or wrong?
Bruce Mowbray: Are you talking about individuals or about nations?
Avaline DeCuir: take for example the issue of gay marriage ... it is being debated in Australia .. usingg christian values as the yardstick .. yet not everyone is christian .. so why should they be restricted by beliefs they don't even hold?
Bleu Oleander: well both ... character can be about either
Bruce Mowbray: Not even all Christians would agree about what "Christian" means -- let alone agreeing about gay marriage.
Avaline DeCuir: exactly
ElanVitalo Resident: Australia doesn't have a state religion, does it?
Darren Islar: I think "feeling" is not enough ... contemplation on values, comparing them to what other people or groups feel, might be helpful
ElanVitalo Resident: But nations don't do that -- CAN'T do that, Darren. Only individuals can "discern" in the ways you suggest.
Darren Islar: ponders
Avaline DeCuir: that is only one example .. but I get fed up with hearing "the bible says" ... and completely ignoring the fact that not everyone lays credence in that tome
Zon Kwan: finally..what else is there...the inner feeling based on emotions or thinking or others influence
Avaline DeCuir: Yes and no ... re the state religion ... it is basiclly a christian country .. but trying to be accepting of other beliefs ... unless they tread too hard on christian beliefs and morals
Bruce Mowbray: One point I try (politely) to make with Biuble-thumpers is that the Bible also contradicts itself in many places -- especially at the most important events in the New Testament...
Darren Islar: hmmmm ... I don't think there is anything like an objective morality
Bruce Mowbray: Bible literalists -- not "thumpers."
Bruce Mowbray: I disagree, Darren.
Darren Islar: please elaborate ... after the bell :)
Bruce Mowbray: kk.
Avaline DeCuir: Well I am not sure morals actually have anything to do with the bible .. otherwise there wouldn't be child molestation in religious groups
Bleu Oleander: objective morality?
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps it depends on what you mean by "objective" -- If you're looking for a mathematical certainty -- or for sense experience to tell you what's moral, then I would agree that it's merely subjective, but there are other ways of determining morality... that DO seem objective to me.
Bleu Oleander listens
Darren Islar listens as well
Avaline DeCuir: I think you are right Darren ... morals rely on tradition and cultural background ... neither of which are objective
Bruce Mowbray: There is a communal "morality" that every society builds for itself.
Bleu Oleander: well that wouldn't be objective tho?
Bruce Mowbray: Can things not be "objectively" against the law -- or objectively legal, perhaps... as in some states gay marriage is legal, and not so in others.
Avaline DeCuir: exactly Bleu that is subjective
Bruce Mowbray: kk, then WHAT would be objective.
Bruce Mowbray: ?
Avaline DeCuir: I would debate whether laws are objective
Bleu Oleander: some moral code that wasn't decided by humans perhaps?
Bruce Mowbray: I could say, "It is three mikes to the border of the next state, where gay marriage is legal." Are yo saying that the first part of the sentence is objective but that the second part is not?
Darren Islar nods to Bleu and Ava ... I think we are bound to look at our own (close) environment and though we know about others, we only respond to it gradually or with distance, so highly subjective to me ... so I don't think there is really something objective, but since morals ARE a human thing, they might better not be
Darren Islar: who might that be Bleu?
Avaline DeCuir: lawas as all rules are made as a reaction to a proble or issue .. and they are applied with regard to circumstances and persons involved ... I would debate whether either of those things are objective
Bruce Mowbray: miles, not mikes* sry.
Bleu Oleander: well exactly Darren
Darren Islar: yes Ava
Bleu Oleander: built into the universe
Darren Islar: I think miles are highly subjective since we have kilometers here :)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha.
Darren Islar: interesting Bleu, how are we going to recognize those?
Bruce Mowbray: Mikes are also subjective, I suppose.
Darren Islar: hahaha
Avaline DeCuir: a truly objective morality would have to apply to every person that lived, ever has lived or ever will live without any bias
Zon Kwan: morals are objective rules a certain society normally follows
Bruce Mowbray: agrees with Zon.
Bleu Oleander: so I don't think there are any objective moral codes
Zon Kwan: one way agree or disgaree wiht those rules
ElanVitalo Resident: Even when they are written into laws and enforced?
Zon Kwan: but they are ojective
Darren Islar: what is objective about that Zon?
Bleu Oleander: there are tendencies kinda "built in" to humans that may lead us to behaviors that we might consider to be moral perhaps?
Zon Kwan: they are followed
Avaline DeCuir: how can they be objective when they are written as a reaction to a problem?
Darren Islar: or maybe I should ask, what do you mean with objective here?
Zon Kwan: objective means yhey are real rules for many....
ElanVitalo Resident: Kilometers were invented to solve the problem of mesuring distance --- are kilometeers not objective measurements?
Zon Kwan: we agree on kilometre
Bleu Oleander: probably not written by anyone ... existing in and of themselves somehow
Zon Kwan: ita agreed objectivity
Zon Kwan: based on subjectivity
ElanVitalo Resident nods.
Zon Kwan: shared subjectivity..
ElanVitalo Resident: Can something be subjective -- and then become objective?
Bleu Oleander: as soon as human get involved its subjective from someone's point of view?
ElanVitalo Resident: So animals are more objective that humans?
ElanVitalo Resident: than*
Avaline DeCuir: Kilometers are subjective .. they may be an agreed measurement amongst a group of people .. but they are not objective
Bleu Oleander: I don't think so ... at least not the ones I know :)
Zon Kwan: they are if we garee
Zon Kwan: agree
Darren Islar: I think that kind of objectivity would be called laws, but how about a country with a dictator, dictating laws?
ElanVitalo Resident: kk, if km's are not objective, then please give me an example of something that IS objective.
Zon Kwan: they are objective laws if followed
Bleu Oleander: I think objectivity goes beyond laws ... laws were written by humans
Zon Kwan: not necessarily good ones
Bruce Mowbray: Can a human ever describe something objectively, then?
Darren Islar: I think we are talkling about different kind of 'objectives', but I feel more for the interpretation of Ava's and Bleu's
Avaline DeCuir: the sun and the moon are objective .. they exist for everyone the experience of them may be subjective ... but they are objective reallities becuase their existence does not depend on any group or individual definition of them

Zon Kwan: must run, waves
Darren Islar: bye Zon
ElanVitalo Resident: bye, Zon.

Darren Islar: actually I don't think so
Bruce Mowbray: Let's say we both get on a bathroom scale and weigh ourselves -- then we compare our weights -- maybe even add them together. Is their ANY objectivity in this?
Avaline DeCuir: yes there is a relative objectivity ... our mass would be an agreed upon measure ... and tht mass will not change no matter the unit of measurement ... but the actual unit itself is subjective
Darren Islar: relatively yes, since you compare one with another, but your scale will say somethign quite different on the moon or the sun
Bleu Oleander: dictionary says: "not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts." I don't think anything we do is not influenced by personal feeling or opinions, do you?
Avaline DeCuir: I gree Bleu
ElanVitalo Resident: ahhh, now I'm beginning to understand.... Anything human-made has the potential for subjectivity, then?
Avaline DeCuir: yes
Bleu Oleander: I think that's becoming more apparent these days
Darren Islar: yes Elan, and agreed Bleu
Avaline DeCuir: although our mass would not change .. the reality of it ... the measurement of it would change depending on what units we used
Bleu Oleander: subjective: "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions."
ElanVitalo Resident: How about if a meteor lands on my head -- and I explode.... Could there be an objective judgment that I had been killed by the meteor?
Darren Islar: relatively you can say one has more mass than the other, but even then ... there needs to be something around giving that mass
Darren Islar: can you get killed?
Avaline DeCuir: well yes and no Elan .. I could also say you died of heart failure and be completely correct
ElanVitalo Resident: relativity is QUITE an objective scientific way of viewing and explaining thngs, though.
Avaline DeCuir: so how objective is it really?
ElanVitalo Resident: Ha ha!
Darren Islar: yes, but within a certain environment, when we leave Earth, there is no mass
ElanVitalo Resident: Yes there is.
Avaline DeCuir: yes there is .. there is no weight but the mass remains the same
ElanVitalo Resident: There may not be any weight, but there is mass.
ElanVitalo Resident: nods, agrees.
Darren Islar: ah ... that way

Character as a balance

Bleu Oleander: so what does all this say about character?
Avaline DeCuir: which is why I used the word mass and not weight
ElanVitalo Resident: ahhh. Only a character would ask such questions about character!
Bleu Oleander: lol
Avaline DeCuir: well to me it says that character is highly subjective
Bleu Oleander: my book club is reading "the road to character"
Bleu Oleander: and i was curious what you all thought
Avaline DeCuir: since it not only changes from moment to moment depending on how a person feels but it changes depending on who is observing it
Bleu Oleander: yes Ave!
Darren Islar: maybe it tells us that character is not something we can define and is something we balance with some +'s and -'s, and maybe what is balancing it, is only a conditioned mindset
Avaline DeCuir: exactly Darren
ElanVitalo Resident: I agree that character is subjective --- but I also think that there would be consensus that SOME behaviours would indicate "poor character" and other behaviours would indicate "good" character...
Bleu Oleander: I like that Darren :)
Avaline DeCuir: I disagree Elan
Bleu Oleander: but maybe only "poor" from a certain point of view Elan?
ElanVitalo Resident: Most societies would say that someone who lies most of the time has "bad" character.
Avaline DeCuir: because what I think is good behaviour and bad behaviour may differe from moment to moment ... depending on my mood, and on those around me
Darren Islar: deathpenalty might be for some groups a way of punishment which is good, where it isn't for others
Darren Islar: ((checks her mood to be sure))

Darren Islar: hey QT
Qt Core: Hi all!
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Qt.
Bleu Oleander: hi Qt
Avaline DeCuir: Hello QT

ElanVitalo Resident: Civil societies have written laws . . . . shall we just let people's moods determine whetyher they obey those laws or not?
ElanVitalo Resident: whether*
Darren Islar: we are talking about character, morality and objectivity .. we have been wondering if morals can be objective then what it tells us about character
Avaline DeCuir: if for example someone called me an idiot .. or other unkind thing ... I might feel they are a bad person if I am feeling vulnerable that day .. yet on another day I might just laugh at them and feel generous enough to see the good in them despite their words
Qt Core: ty leaping
Avaline DeCuir: (( hehe Darren .. well later you can get me in the mood :)))
Bruce Mowbray: Sure, Ava! And your moods might be affected by such things.... and that would be subjective, for sure.
Darren Islar: ((grins))

The possibiliby of developing character

Bleu Oleander: so how does one develop character?
Avaline DeCuir: yes you are right Bruce .. my mood might be affected by how often that person said unkind things to me
Bleu Oleander: can culture encourage character development?
Darren Islar: comparison?
Avaline DeCuir: it could do Bleu .. but it could equally do the opposite
Bleu Oleander: yes
ElanVitalo Resident: life experience, weighing values, making mistakes, learning from errors, empathy... (so you can learn from others' experience as well as your own.)
Bleu Oleander: actually that's the point of the book I think Ava
Darren Islar nods to Elan
Qt Core: facing hardship, but not strong enough to break the spirit
Bleu Oleander: that our culture is not encouraging character cultivation
Bruce Mowbray: Well I surely HOPE that cultures can encourage character development.
Darren Islar: I just wanted to say: not our society :)
Avaline DeCuir: if the culture I grow up in judges me for a belief or behaviour that I see as quite normal for the way I feel ... how would that culture influence the development of my character other than to perhaps influence me to distance myself from it or avoid it
Bruce Mowbray: The mere fact that the culture "judges you" indicates that it has some sense of what constitutes "good" and "bad" character, doesn't it? --- even though you might disagree with the culture's judgments.
Bleu Oleander: does too much emphasis on success and making money cause us to not focus on the moral issues, so not encouraging us to develop character or are they separate issues?
Darren Islar: true Bruce
ElanVitalo Resident: Excellent question, Bleu.
Avaline DeCuir: QT makes a good point about hardship ... think about western culture for example .. that encourages capitalist beliefs and morals ... yet that culture also causes hardship for many ... and ignores the hardships it causes ... how would that culture help someone develop character along the lines of its promoted morals?
Bleu Oleander: yes, perhaps a better way of phrasing my question Ava
Darren Islar: well, there is also education, time and money ... so the basic needs for development are there
Bruce Mowbray: are you advocating free education for evryone, then --- for the sake of a "standard" ?
Darren Islar: so maybe no encouraging directly, but indirectly
Bruce Mowbray: a standard for character, perhaps.
Avaline DeCuir: but does education always help Darren? when children from a poor neighbourhood recieve a far inferior education to those from a rich one
Avaline DeCuir: and when only those who have money can get a full education? same goes for health .. which is another need that adds or detracts from social capital
Darren Islar: I agree it's not for everyone in this society, but with the people we are sitting here, it is possible, we even discuss it
ElanVitalo Resident: We continue to work TOWARD resolving these unfairnesses, I hope.
Darren Islar: I'm not sure what you try to say Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: ?
Avaline DeCuir: I am not sure that education and character are necessarily related
Darren Islar: I like free education though in the sense it won't cost anything
Bruce Mowbray: There is a book "Everything I Need to Know I learned in Kindergarten." ---
Avaline DeCuir: think about the politicians who have had a good education ... can you honestly say that all of them have a good character?
Bruce Mowbray: I think that book was talking mostly about character issues, not arithmetic or spelling.
Darren Islar: no, but there is also the other side, it's not all bad, look at the initiatives people take, the Buddhist center in Nijmegen for instance
ElanVitalo Resident: EVERYONE has character issues, don't they?
Bleu Oleander: suggesting character may be learned early in life?
Darren Islar: or that we don't need much?
Darren Islar: I would say so Elan, except maybe the Dalai Lama :)
ElanVitalo Resident: Surely so, Bleu.
Bruce Mowbray: Oh he has character issues too,m I'm sure.
Bleu Oleander: but we can improve our character, yes?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes.
Bruce Mowbray: we can.
Avaline DeCuir: actually I think character is one of the things we keep learning throughout our whole lives and it is heavily influenced by our life experiences
Bruce Mowbray: hear hear!
Bleu Oleander: yes I think so
Bruce Mowbray: agrees with Ava.
Darren Islar: agrees also with Ava
Avaline DeCuir pats Darren on the head then kisses hi
Avaline DeCuir: him
ElanVitalo Resident: :)
Bleu Oleander: which comes back to the culture ... are we having enough conversation in the culture?
Darren Islar: growls softly, then smiles brightly and kisses back
ElanVitalo Resident: conversation about character, you mean?
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bleu Oleander: importance of values, morals, ethics, character
Avaline DeCuir: I think we are having several conversations and no one is listening to anyone else .. or perhaps they are only listening to their own groups but not other groups
ElanVitalo Resident: I don't think it's possible to have "enough" conversation about it.
Bleu Oleander: not so focused on marketing, money, getting ahead
ElanVitalo Resident: Wherever human interaction is involved, character issues are also involved.
Bleu Oleander: to create a balance I mean
Darren Islar: I think morals are based on fairness and honesty, I distrust every politican though
Bleu Oleander: :)
Darren Islar: or actually, I should say the political system
ElanVitalo Resident: :)
Avaline DeCuir: I agree Darren
ElanVitalo Resident: (Good thing the Dalai Lama isn't running for office, then.)
Darren Islar: hehe
Avaline DeCuir: hahahaha
Bruce Mowbray:
Bleu Oleander: he isn't? lol
Bruce Mowbray: Yikes!
ElanVitalo Resident: Yikes!
Avaline DeCuir: perhaps if everyone based morals on compassion we might have a better world
Darren Islar: I think it depends highly on persons, on you and me and the little societies we can create in the bigger one
ElanVitalo Resident nods.
Avaline DeCuir: trouble is half the world needs to learn what compassion is first
Darren Islar: he stepped back from Office
Qt Core: It is a well-known fact that those people who must want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it... anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. Douglas Adams
Darren Islar: only half?
Bruce Mowbray: When I think about other people... it is almost always the case that I am thinking about their character... in one way or another.
Avaline DeCuir: yep great quote QT
Darren Islar: I agree with Douglas

Bleu Oleander slips away quietly ... take care all :)
Avaline DeCuir: bye Bleu
Qt Core: bye Bleu
Darren Islar: tc Bleu
Bruce Mowbray: bye, Bleu.

Bruce Mowbray: I like that quote, but would it not also apply to joining a spiritual group --- No one who joins the group is worthy or joining?
ElanVitalo Resident: of joining.
Qt Core: in mst cases if you are already at the level the group aim there is no reason to join
Avaline DeCuir: actually Vruce I think everyone is worthy of joining ... what they do in it is a matter for debate though ... but I think everyone deserves and is worthy of the opportunity to improve themselves sprirtually
Darren Islar: I agree Ava

Bruce Mowbray: need to go, too.
ElanVitalo Resident: me too.
Darren Islar: ok elan and Bruce, have a good day
Avaline DeCuir: bye Bruce and Elan
Qt Core: bye Elan
Darren Islar: I think it's time to go for us as well
Bruce Mowbray: kk, bye for now, then.
Avaline DeCuir: yep ... time for me to teach you some morals ... *smirk*
Darren Islar: good ... grins
Qt Core: bye all
Darren Islar: bye QT
Avaline DeCuir: bye QT
Darren Islar: have a good evening