The Guardian for this meeting was Wol Euler.

Wol Euler: guten morgen, lieber Berti
Bertram Jacobus: good morning dear woly :-)
Qt Core: Hi Bert, Wol
Wol Euler: buongiorno, Qt
Wol Euler: long time no see :)
Qt Core: :-)
Bertram Jacobus: hey qt, good morning ! :-)
Bertram Jacobus: sometimes we are more then two here ... ;-)
Wol Euler: seldom :) but it does happen
Bertram Jacobus: on europe´s sundays and saturdays mornings ... :-)
Qt Core: the old debate of quantity over quality ? ;-)
Wol Euler: well, I couldn't be here at this time during the week
Bertram Jacobus: hehe.
Bertram Jacobus: may be we must not debate it ... hmmm :-)
Bertram Jacobus: but we could, if we would like ! (?) ;-)
Qt Core: i may ne in next couple days as i'm home with a little flu and doc ordered me mre rest than medicines so, i'll be back to work on wednesday
Bertram Jacobus: and i could be here this time, excepts on fridays
Wol Euler: well, take care of yourself
Wol Euler: there's a lot of flu going around at the moment

Bertram Jacobus: i´m in a kind of self organized retirement before official retirement and so i only have to work one day a week, very luxury situation
Wol Euler: indeed :)
Wol Euler: whereas I am pleased when I only hve to work five days a week instead of six
Bertram Jacobus: but "therefore" i have a really small income - but i prefere more time then money ...
Qt Core: since school days i supported (but never had) a four day working week, or even better a two plus two with wednesday as festive
Wol Euler: that would be good :)

--BELL--

Bertram Jacobus: and when i wouldn´t work at all, the support wages of the gouvernment would be clearly more then i have now (!) ...
Qt Core: support or state backed retirement, if i may ask ?
Bertram Jacobus: ah ! in german car industry there is often such a four day week i guess
Bertram Jacobus: both would be possible qt, but retirement only in two years and 8 month qt
Bertram Jacobus: and money is same, for both
Bertram Jacobus: and although that is called "poor" by the official definition, it´ll be much more then i have now - so very good perspectives for me (!) ;-)
Wol Euler: fascinating :)
Qt Core: ok just the headache of understanding how to retire in my own country is overwhelming ;-) long story short, the new law includes increment of retirement age in base of the increase of life expectancy, that is about 67/69 at the moment
Bertram Jacobus: but i should add or admit, that i still have small savings, which can help when a special situation with need for money would occure - for a new washing machine for example ...
Qt Core: good

Wol Euler: every country seems to be struggling with finding money to pay for citizens' retirement, at the same time as most countries are giving huge tax breaks to people who are already very wealthy
Wol Euler: this seems odd to me
Bertram Jacobus: yes. in germany it´s similar. for me, retirement age is 65 years and 7 month. it´s stepwise changing, depending on the age and will be 67 as highest age at the moment if i don´t err
Bertram Jacobus: sure - the old topic of the dispension ... should be a bit wiser handled as at the moment, worldwide
Bertram Jacobus: ghandi said, there is enough for all to live, but not enough to feed the greed ...
Wol Euler: true
Wol Euler: because greed is endless
Qt Core: with the increasing of retirement minimum age i, funnily enough, will find myself getting a little private retirement fund plan i subscribed starting to repay me some 10 years before i could retire ;-)
Wol Euler: do you have to take that, or could you leave it in the fund to accrue more interest?
Bertram Jacobus: and not only concerning to that, we really should have the change of paradigmas as soon as possible
Qt Core: no, i think i can only choose if getting a big lump of money in a single payment or having it split in monthly payment
Wol Euler: there is a lot of discussion of a guaranteed basic income these days, I think it's a good idea
Qt Core: it may help in something like bert is doing, lessening the work rate, but then as of now i don't choose mine
Qt Core: i agree but than it should not encourage just wasting away your day/life

--BELL--


Wol Euler: well, that's the issue. What percentage of the population would use the GBI as a reason/excuse to stay home? There have been experiments done in several countries, and on the whole people do NOT stay home all day :)
Wol Euler: other than those who would (and do!) find a way to do so right now
Bertram Jacobus: i prefere the idea, that the help, which is given to poor people in the german system, should be given without the possibility of restrictions
Wol Euler: also true :) GBI should not be the end of what is available to those who need assistance.
Qt Core: worst case scenario they would be to be forced to spend their time in a public library... maybe they just will read only for boredom (just joking) ;-)
Wol Euler: and just for the record: do you consider what the Trump children do to be "working"? I sure as hell don't. They sit around and waste time all their lives.
Wol Euler: but the rich are "allowed" to do that
Qt Core: you tie them in the library ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: yeah ! very true ! even my last gf had such a luxury situation : some money, which "workes / worked" for her. but she did not accept the view on it that not working in this way would be not working (!) - she did, and made so her income even higher, but did not want to see what i wrote here ... hm
Wol Euler: I'd certainly tie them up
Wol Euler: heheheh
Qt Core: it is part of a classical question, will you still work (whatever work, the old one or a new one) if you win the lottery, maybe after a year long vacation/trip ?
Wol Euler: I would definitely continue, but on a different time basis
Bertram Jacobus: but my impression is, that it would be enogh, to cut only a few of the richness worldwide to support all poor people so that nobody must die by hunger at least anymore or from a lack of water, inadequate temperatures and so on ( basic needs ) ...
Wol Euler: because I love the job

Wol Euler: aggers!
Wol Euler: lovely to see you here again
Agatha Macbeth: Guten morgen :)
Qt Core: Hi Aga
Wol Euler: ayup lass
Bertram Jacobus: people who like, can go on the earn and have richness and i think, a motivation like that would not be harmful - if all people can live, so to say ...
Qt Core: whatever to fill the days after i while i think
Wol Euler: we're talking about retirement, and income, and income support, and greed
Bertram Jacobus: AGGERS ... :-)))
Agatha Macbeth: Who's retiring?
Agatha Macbeth: Berti :)
Wol Euler: there are a lot of people who would drop their jobs in a second, though.
Wol Euler: all of us, aggers, if we live long enough
Qt Core: ;-)
Agatha Macbeth: Ha
Bertram Jacobus: me, self constructed so to say - but i still work one day a week ;-)
Agatha Macbeth: You became a priest? :P
Wol Euler: I don't think that the guy whose job is sucking the excrement out of those blue portable toilets on construction sites, then taking them away for cleaning, loves his work the way that I love mine
Wol Euler: perhaps I am wrong
Wol Euler: heheheheheh
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. dunno - may be close to that. but more a facility guy in the spiritual center where i live now ... ;-)
Wol Euler: there's a cozy job
Agatha Macbeth: 'It's a hell of a job, but someone has to do it'
Qt Core: yes, Wol, those that work just to live, but even those, i hope, after the "year liong vacation" would need something to fill their days, and i count volunteering for the local parish (just as an example) as work in this situation
Wol Euler nods.
Agatha Macbeth: Right
Qt Core: (i'm following the what you will do with your life if you win the lottery, aga)
Agatha Macbeth: Oh, good luck with that
Wol Euler: case in point. when my mother retired from teaching schoolchildren she took a 1/3-ish time volunteer job teaching visitors to the Botanical Gardens, and doing some gardening there
Qt Core: nice
Agatha Macbeth: Look at Santa, he only works one day a year
Qt Core: and he surely won the lottery to splurge on all those gift...
Wol Euler: it's good for her, Qt, but I am not sure it is good for us (society)

--BELL--

Wol Euler: I'd prefer that the Gardens were properly funded, so they didn't have to rely on (exploit) free labour
Wol Euler: when I was a kid there were no volunteers there, everyone was paid
Qt Core: as a young could have that place for a wage, wol ?
Wol Euler: indeed
Bertram Jacobus: i don´t believe that there wouldn´t be enough work, enough to do. the other point is, what is paid for all that ...
Wol Euler: it used to be paid for.
Wol Euler: before greed took over the world
Wol Euler: there was a time when bosses were content to earn 20 times what they paid their staff
Qt Core: it is something to consider, but then, if all (or most of) volunteer would be payed position, what will retired people do ? just gardening on their own ?
Wol Euler: now they earn 500 times or more
Wol Euler: is that necessary? is it good?
Bertram Jacobus: greed is a basic characteristic of humans i think, but it´s possible to overcome it, again : i think it is so
Wol Euler: well, in my opinion: if a job could go to someone who needs the money, or to someone who does NOT need money, then the poor person should have it.
Wol Euler: that seems reasonable to me
Agatha Macbeth: Agreed
Qt Core: reasonable
Wol Euler: and if that means that a comparatively rich retired person needs to find a different way to fill their time, so be it. They can hang around the library ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: again : i would be content if everybody worldwide had enough to live that he must not die and can decide whether he wants to do and earn more ... then even absurd richness from others wouldn´t bother me at all ;-)
Agatha Macbeth: Works for me
Wol Euler: agreed, berti
Bertram Jacobus: :-))

Qt Core: if everyone can have a working watch i have no problem with people wanting/having Rolex ones
Bertram Jacobus: hehe and i agree with you woly :-)
Wol Euler: right
Wol Euler: exactly
Wol Euler: just don't wear a Rolex and tell me that poor people don't deserve any watch at all
Wol Euler: of course, if there WERE a guaranteed basic income, I predict a sudden and total shortage of people to vacuum the shit out of blue portable toilets on construction sites :)
Wol Euler: that and similar issues would have to be dealt with
Bertram Jacobus: and - i told woly before - because i try to support also the people in the house where i live now in their spiritual practices, i must leave today very in time, which means at 2 am slt. i already took one hour before for here away so to say ... ;-)
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: bless you, Berti
Qt Core: ok
Agatha Macbeth: They can always do what they usually do and leave it to migrants
Wol Euler: ... who would NOT have a guaranteed basic income? where do you draw the line?
Wol Euler: what about their children?
Bertram Jacobus: ty ! and the people for for blue toilets then must be paid better or work less or the work conditions had to be better, better technique and all such
Wol Euler: exactly
Wol Euler: perhaps the job could be made less disgusting if the bosses found that they HAD to make it less disgusting ...
Qt Core: but then many new techniques ask for less workers...
Agatha Macbeth: Not sure if you could make that job less disgusting
Agatha Macbeth: Technology only goes so far
Bertram Jacobus: i think, it´s easier to hold the social system we already have and modify it "a bit", as said before : where is the need for support, it should be given, but without restrictions. that would be nearly the same effect on society and work like the basic income i think
Wol Euler: in much the same way that people are not regularly crippled by industrial machinery because of safety regulations and protective screens etc.
Agatha Macbeth: Which are comparitively recent

Wol Euler: factory owners said it was impossible to make factories safe, that they would be bankrupted if these were made mandatory, and then -- nothing happened! safe workers and factory owners are richer than ever.
Wol Euler: but yes, aggers, there will always be some truly disgusting jobs that somebody needs to do
Wol Euler: for our sake
Bertram Jacobus: sure. but when people can´t be forced anymore, because they get the unrestricted support, work must be made more attractive
Qt Core: i've read about creating taxes for indistries using a lot of robot to found the increased social spending for the people dismissed by said robots use
Wol Euler: because the alternative is that the construction workers walk off the site and crap on your lawn, because they have to crap somewhere...
Wol Euler: it's a good idea, Qt
Agatha Macbeth: Saves dogs from doing it
Bertram Jacobus: sure. a tax on machine work, in other words
Wol Euler: exactly
Qt Core: yes
Qt Core: until machines become self aware ;-)

--BELL--

Wol Euler: I am not convinced that the Soviet factories with their twenty-man teams of floor sweepers were doing it wrong. Those people had jobs, they earned an income, they had respect from their working neighbours and a reason to get out of bed in the mornings. I don't think that is wrong.
Bertram Jacobus: dears, so i must hurry and run off - so nice that we even were four this morning here - ty all and may all beings be happy ;-)
Qt Core: on an instinctual level i found communism right, but then the human factor messes it up
Wol Euler: take care, Berti
Agatha Macbeth: Be well Bertichen
Qt Core: bye Bert
Wol Euler: I love that outfit, Aggers
Agatha Macbeth: Had it ages dear
Agatha Macbeth: The old leopard look
Wol Euler: I know, but I still love it :)
Agatha Macbeth: Always works
Agatha Macbeth: One thing I've noticed with those Uti avs is the eyes often won't render unless you cam in
Agatha Macbeth: They just look solid
Wol Euler: yes that's a known and very annoying bug in mesh
Wol Euler: because of the eyelid alphas
Agatha Macbeth nods
Wol Euler: as you say zooming in or out fixes it
Agatha Macbeth: So many people with his stuff, must be making a bomb out of SL
Wol Euler: I hope so :)
Agatha Macbeth: Beats portallos any day
Agatha Macbeth: loos*
Qt Core: would you consider sl creating (avs, clothing, etc) a work one (the lottery winner) may consider for its day to day life ? it is enough, for oneself and society ?
Wol Euler: sure
Wol Euler: no less valid than writing poetry :)
Agatha Macbeth: If it works, go for it
Wol Euler: or painting forest scenes

Wol Euler: this is where what you called the human aspect of Communism failing comes in
Qt Core: ahhh slippery road ahead... how to give value to art (and what art is )
Agatha Macbeth: Anshe Chung has made enough just selling and renting sims
Agatha Macbeth: Ars gratia artis
Wol Euler: because the "logical" consequence of a fully planned economy is that someone has to decide who is allowed to be a poet and who is not
Agatha Macbeth: Then you also get Stalin cricising your symphonies :p
Wol Euler: my feeling is that the GBI would take a lot of strain out of art-work, the business of making art as a business
Agatha Macbeth: 'So how many did *you* write Joe?'
Wol Euler: "take him out and kill him." "yes sir"
Qt Core: averyone should make art in his/her free time... then there are x-factor/Y got talent show to decide who the real artists are ;-)
Agatha Macbeth: Wonder where Filthy Fluno is now?
Wol Euler: dunno
Agatha Macbeth: I remember him on the Avatar games
Agatha Macbeth: Wish they'd bring it back
Wol Euler: make it happen :)
Wol Euler: organize it :)
Agatha Macbeth: I asked Bryn, she wasn't hopeful
Wol Euler: hmmmm
Agatha Macbeth: Think anything involving LEA is much like that
Agatha Macbeth: Good to see Bert again
Wol Euler: yeah, he comes in many weekend mornings
Wol Euler: but it conflicts with his RL meetings
Agatha Macbeth: Wish he'd start his meditation up again
Agatha Macbeth: Moonie's back doing his at Hikari
Agatha Macbeth: Which is good to see
Wol Euler: agreed

--BELL--

Agatha Macbeth: Anyone know how Fc is these days?
Wol Euler: I haven't heard from them in ... years I guess
Agatha Macbeth: Hm
Agatha Macbeth: Sad that
Wol Euler: it says here that FC was in SL on October 4th
Wol Euler: so zie is still around
Agatha Macbeth: Oh good
Agatha Macbeth: Good to know
Wol Euler: it#s been a year since Eos was in, almost exactly
Agatha Macbeth: It was good to hear from Boxy too, if only a tech report :p
Wol Euler nods.
Agatha Macbeth: Anyways
Agatha Macbeth: I'll try to get to Fracture again one of the nights
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: you know where to find us
Agatha Macbeth: I do
Agatha Macbeth: Working today?
Wol Euler: no! day off!!! naps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Agatha Macbeth: Woot
Wol Euler: indeed
Agatha Macbeth: Nap well
Qt Core: :-)
Wol Euler: my favourite activity!
Wol Euler: seriously
Agatha Macbeth: More than reading?

Wol Euler: I don't understand how I can claim to enjoy something that I am unconscious of, but there you have it.
Wol Euler: yesbutno, because you can read while doing many other things. eating, bathing ...
Agatha Macbeth: True dat
Agatha Macbeth: Right I'm off to sort out more advent boxes
Agatha Macbeth: Have fun kiddos
Qt Core: bye Aga
Wol Euler: bye aggers
Wol Euler: I should be getting on too, despite all my talk of naps there is also laundry to do etc
Qt Core: and napping while a machine work for us is even better ;-)
Wol Euler: yay :) double win :)
Qt Core: and i have food to get ready
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: cook well, dear Qt
Wol Euler: my regards to your family
Qt Core: ty
Qt Core: have fun/naps
Wol Euler: will do :)