2015.06.22 13:00 - Re-thinking the real

The Guardian for this meeting was Aphrodite Macbain. The comments are by Aphrodite Macbain.

druth Vlodovic: you're shedding plants
Aphrodite Macbain: LOL
Aphrodite Macbain: hi
druth Vlodovic: where did you get that getup?
Aphrodite Macbain: I have to check out my shampoo
Aphrodite Macbain: at the place we visited a while back
Aphrodite Macbain: You got a few get ups too
Aphrodite Macbain: Don't like my Mohawk?
druth Vlodovic: it's ... interesting
Aphrodite Macbain: should I remove it and find something less bristly?
druth Vlodovic: nah, looks good
Aphrodite Macbain: there
Aphrodite Macbain: now I'm bald
druth Vlodovic: oooohhhh
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
druth Vlodovic: nobody coming?
Aphrodite Macbain: who knows. It's only 1:01
Aphrodite Macbain: maybe Zen and Bleu
druth Vlodovic: I didn't see if you did a theme
Aphrodite Macbain: the theme is: "Why do different orders or types of thoughts arise with presence of different people?"
druth Vlodovic: jazz blue, or generally depressed blue?
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
druth Vlodovic: ah
Aphrodite Macbain: Eliza raised the question at the Guardian meeting.
druth Vlodovic: so what orders of thought do you have?
Aphrodite Macbain: I prefer to say "types" of thoughts. My thoughts are rarely orderly
druth Vlodovic: genus then
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: I have thoughts that make me feel or are result of a feeling: angry thoughts, happy thoughts, thoughts about things that are bothering me
Aphrodite Macbain: It's nice when people shake my assumptions and make me think differently
druth Vlodovic: intrusive thoughts can be a bother
Aphrodite Macbain: what do you mean by intrusive thoughts?
Aphrodite Macbain: Thoughts that are disturbing that come from something you try and avoid?
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Bruce!
Aphrodite Macbain: You have saved us from our thoughts
druth Vlodovic: hey Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Hi. So sorry to be late -- My internet connection has been unstable all afternoon.
Bruce Mowbray: Are you SURE they were 'thoughts'?
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: what else could they be?
Bruce Mowbray: Are you talking about Vipassana today -- and thoughts, of course?
Bruce Mowbray: They could be "impressions" but not "concepts."
Aphrodite Macbain: Why do different orders or types of thoughts arise with presence of different people?"
Bruce Mowbray: kk, TY!
Bruce Mowbray: I was still hung up on the email question, I guess.
Aphrodite Macbain: I think I connect ideas or experiences differently with each person
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
Aphrodite Macbain: I have expectations
Aphrodite Macbain: of the other person
Aphrodite Macbain: I know what angers or upsets them so I act to accommodate that
Bruce Mowbray: Do you (as TS Eliot said in "J.Alfred Prufrock) "make a face to meet the faces that you meet?" -- or make different thoughts when you meet different folks?
Aphrodite Macbain: nice
Aphrodite Macbain: Perhaps we do
Aphrodite Macbain: as we are social beings
Bruce Mowbray: "I shall go to make a face to meet the faces that I meet." -The Lovesong of J.Alfred Prufrock
Bruce Mowbray: so, instead of making faces, you're making thoughts?
Aphrodite Macbain: It implies that we are never truly "ourselves" except when we're alone..
Bleu Oleander: hiya
Bruce Mowbray: [Did I scare off druthie?]
Aphrodite Macbain: aww. druth poofed
Bruce Mowbray: yeppers.
Bruce Mowbray: I've been poofing all afternoon myself.
Bruce Mowbray: Bleu!
Aphrodite Macbain: why?
Bruce Mowbray: unstable internet connection out here in the boonies.
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi lovely Bleu. What are u wearing?
Bruce Mowbray: (you wouldn't have such thoughts, of course).
Bleu Oleander: i'm wearing one of Mikati's lovely hats
Bruce Mowbray: a lovely Legos hat!?
Bleu Oleander: she's quite an artist!
Bruce Mowbray: I guess she is!
Aphrodite Macbain: Bleu, we are discussing: "Why do different orders or types of thoughts arise with presence of different people?"

Aphrodite Macbain: who is Mikati?
Bleu Oleander: big artist
Bruce Mowbray: Now, THERE's an interesting thought.
Bleu Oleander: she designed the 4 sim birthday cake for the sl 12th birthday party
Aphrodite Macbain: maybe I can get one to cover my baldness
Bruce Mowbray: "BIG ARTIST"
Aphrodite Macbain ponders the concept
Bleu Oleander: big cake!
Bruce Mowbray: BIG FAT artist? or a grand artistic person?

Aphrodite Macbain: what is the LM for the party- maybe we can go later
Bleu Oleander: one sec
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks Bleu
Aphrodite Macbain: (received LM)
Bleu Oleander: she's giving gift hats there too :)
 

Bleu Oleander: ok explain the subject again?

Aphrodite Macbain: "Why do different orders or types of thoughts arise with presence of different people?"
Aphrodite Macbain: It was a question Eliza raised at the Guardian meeting
Bruce Mowbray: yes, I remember now.
Bleu Oleander: hiya druth
Aphrodite Macbain: wb druthie
Bruce Mowbray: wb druth
Bleu Oleander: what does that mean "orders" or "types" of thoughts?
 

druth Vlodovic: shhhh, we're meditating
Aphrodite Macbain: :/
Aphrodite Macbain: I read it to mean, "do we think differently with different people". The answer may simply be "no" but I thought it worth exploring
druth Vlodovic: are we safe now?
Aphrodite Macbain: I doubt it druth :-)
druth Vlodovic: I find people change personalities depending on who is around
Bleu Oleander: I think we are different selves with different people and in different contexts
druth Vlodovic: primarily when young though
Aphrodite Macbain: hmmm - I feel like a little girl still when I'm with my mother
 

Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Korel
Korel Laloix: Heya
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Kori.
Aphrodite Macbain: Great to see you
Bleu Oleander: hi Kori
Korel Laloix smiles great to see you all as well.
 

druth Vlodovic: whelp! there goes my mind
Bleu Oleander: lol
Bruce Mowbray: How would you know that, druth?
druth Vlodovic: the small squeak I heard
Aphrodite Macbain: a mouse?

Bruce Mowbray: I mean, would that be a bit like trying to know your brain had been without blood for a while? You couldn't, right?
Korel Laloix: This is a new gazebo for me... has it been out long?
Aphrodite Macbain: What would be like that Bruce?
 

Bleu Oleander: yes went up on the 15th Kori
Bleu Oleander: by Xirana
Korel Laloix: Oh Ok.. nice.
 

Bruce Mowbray: Well, what I'm trying to say is that you couldn't KNOW what that would be like.
Aphrodite Macbain: what what would be like?
druth Vlodovic: you can be aware of yourself to an extent
Bruce Mowbray: [13:23] Aph: What would be like that Bruce?
Korel Laloix: I seem to do Ok without my brain sometimes... lol
druth Vlodovic: even fish can see fishbowls
Bleu Oleander: not sure what you guys are talking about lol
Aphrodite Macbain: are u referring to druth saying "there goes my mind"?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I am.
Aphrodite Macbain: ohh
Bruce Mowbray: and I responded, "How could you KNOW that?"
druth Vlodovic: sensing different mental states due to outside human influence
Aphrodite Macbain: If we had no mind we wouldn't be aware of not having it. True....
Bruce Mowbray: Exactly.
Aphrodite Macbain: I can be very aware of changing mental states
Aphrodite Macbain: because my body changes --my palms sweat, or my heart beats faster, or I feel warm around my heart

Bruce Mowbray: So, we were chatting about why Aph changes her personality depending on who's with her, right? Or did I just make that up?
Korel Laloix: I think we all do that.
Aphrodite Macbain: Bruce Mowbray listens.
Korel Laloix: It is just polite I think.. and functional.
Aphrodite Macbain: I don't know if our thoughts change too
Bleu Oleander: our thoughts change all the time
Korel Laloix: But people that expect you to change, often don't get the results they want from me.... smiles
Aphrodite Macbain: I think they might since thoughts are prompted by external as well as internal stimuli
Bruce Mowbray: I don't feel that in Aph's case it's a matter of her trying to manipulate people. I feel that it's more like she feels vulnerable.
druth Vlodovic: not just thoughts but types of thought
Aphrodite Macbain: It was just an observation Eliza made: "Why do different orders or types of thoughts arise with presence of different people?"
druth Vlodovic: when I was a teen I noticed it quite a bit in my peers as in thoughts coming from a different personality
Bleu Oleander: what are "types" of thoughts?
Korel Laloix: I think people more often than not react to me vs the other way around... just my personality though.
Bruce Mowbray: likewise, I don't think it THOUGHTS that Aph is speaking about (but help me out of this, Aph), Actually, it's more of an effect, a primary emotional, spontaneous reaction.
Aphrodite Macbain: angry, analytical, wandering, attentive
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- I think some of our thoughts are prompted by some form of feeling or emotion
Bleu Oleander: my thoughts change too fast to categorize them
druth Vlodovic: yes, less an emotion then a set of responses to an emotion

Aphrodite Macbain: I am most aware of my types of thoughts when I meditate (planning, reviewing the past, wondering, ) they change when I am with people and sometimes are reactive and shallow and sometimes, but only occasionally, are new!
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Well the reason I asked about Vipassana originally (in this session) was -- that I don't think that Vispassana is about "thoughts."
Aphrodite Macbain: no- that was another discussion I raised based on that TED talk
Bruce Mowbray: but I think that was the question (about Vipassana) that Aph raised in the email suggesting the TED talk.
Bruce Mowbray: yes, that one.
Aphrodite Macbain: that discussion was about our ability to really see reality. I enjoyed everyone's responses to that
Bruce Mowbray: sry.
Bruce Mowbray: yes,
druth Vlodovic: well our paradigm
Bruce Mowbray: So, does that connect in some way with your "reactiveness (my word, sry) to other people, Aph?
Aphrodite Macbain: druth Vlodovic: you could say it is a similar subject:
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: It can be linked
Bruce Mowbray: I agree with druth that it is very closely connected to the TED talk.... as well as to Vipassana.
Aphrodite Macbain: I sometimes get a skewed view of reality when I am influenced by love or fear or anger
Aphrodite Macbain: and my thoughts about a subject may change
Bruce Mowbray: That's why I called it "reactive," Aph.... but no judgment intended, just description of what you were saying about your responses to other people.
Aphrodite Macbain: I suppose are feelings are one form of reality - yes- and many of them are reactive
Aphrodite Macbain: rather than equanamous
Bleu Oleander: what do you mean by "reality"?
Bruce Mowbray: The "reality" that the TED talk guy was referring to was one that would be verifiable to the senses . . . but that doesn't matter with Vipassana.
Aphrodite Macbain: what is real as opposed to what is imagined
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: our senses are limited to 5 - or 6
Bleu Oleander: well we can't know the totality of reality
Aphrodite Macbain: No
Bruce Mowbray: something "imagined" and mentally constructed also is "real" -- it just doesn't have referents that are observable to the 5 senses of Western thought.
Aphrodite Macbain: but I wonder whether our limited view of reality is true
Bruce Mowbray: Buddhism, of course, has a sixth sense that DOES recognize such things as imagination and emotional impression.
Aphrodite Macbain: the 6th sense is the mind
Bruce Mowbray: It's called "mind"
Bruce Mowbray: yes.
Bleu Oleander: I think western thought recognizes imagination and emotional impression too
Aphrodite Macbain: [13:36] Aph: our senses are limited to 5 - or 6
Bruce Mowbray: but even with mind, there's a difference between impressions and thoughts.
Bleu Oleander: what do you mean by that?
Bruce Mowbray: Vipassana meditators know about this difference.
Bruce Mowbray: (Where's Zen when we need him?)
Bleu Oleander: ha ha!
Aphrodite Macbain: As I said in my email- I think all we can do is to be as open as possible- to all possible realities
Bruce Mowbray: a "thought" is a construct.
Bruce Mowbray: an impression is not fully a construct (as the TED guy was saying about "reality")
Bleu Oleander: not sure I understand that
Bruce Mowbray: we can have impressions of all sorts without constructing anything.
Bleu Oleander: I don't think so
druth Vlodovic: a thought comes from the current construct of the mind, like an apartment is a construct in an apartment building
Bruce Mowbray: explain, please, Bleu.
Bleu Oleander: what would an impression be?
Aphrodite Macbain: are you implying that a construct is something that is logically developed?
Bruce Mowbray: a sense of foreboding, or anxiety might be an "impression" -- but that doesn't mean it has been constructed like a thought...
Bleu Oleander: but it has
Bleu Oleander: the mind has created that anxiety feeling
Bruce Mowbray: I'm referring to what (and HOW) the TED guy said we "construct" our realities.
Bleu Oleander: I'm not sure what he said ... can you explain?
Bruce Mowbray: he used several optical illusions.
Bruce Mowbray: kk,
druth Vlodovic: constructing doesn't require conscious planning, though I imagine a lot of unconscious planning and tradition goes in to it
Aphrodite Macbain: one gets an impression from a diverse and unrelated sets of things and is shaped by emotions. It is not necessarily "real".
Bruce Mowbray: for example, he showed a field of different colored dots that appeared to be moving in waves toward the right.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods at druth
Bleu Oleander: tricks the mind
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray: but "in reality" he said, that the dots were simple changing colors in sequence.
Bruce Mowbray: giving the impression of movement.
Bleu Oleander: that's still a construct tho, just the wrong one hehe
Aphrodite Macbain: that showed how we cannot rely simply on our senses
Bruce Mowbray: He called that changing of color "real" -- and said that the previous impression of movement was NOT real,
Bruce Mowbray: but I strongly disagree with him.
druth Vlodovic: depends on how you define "real" i guess
Bleu Oleander: it was real to you tho
druth Vlodovic: "existing in the world without dependence upon an observer" type of real, it isn't
Aphrodite Macbain: if a tree falls in the forest....
Bleu Oleander: well the colored dots aren't either
Bruce Mowbray: Bleu has just made my original point - esp. concerning Vipassana... whatever rises has the quality of "reality" for the meditator...
Aphrodite Macbain: nods
Bruce Mowbray: simply notice what arises.
Bleu Oleander: for the one experiencing it
Aphrodite Macbain: but for me the danger is to believe that your reality is not only true but universal
Bruce Mowbray: no need to name it or to find a "real world" referent for it.
Bleu Oleander: that's not Vipassana that's just how it is
druth Vlodovic: "reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it still exists."
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Bruce Mowbray: Vipassna's goal is to show you "just how it is."
druth Vlodovic: perhaps we need to define new words
Bruce Mowbray: THAT would be construction, druth.
Aphrodite Macbain: nods- it's a goal but not a completely achievable goal
druth Vlodovic: the word, or the saying?
Bruce Mowbray: Suppose I construct a whole new mathematical symbol... and then I say, I have this symbol, therefore it refers to something real"
Bruce Mowbray: You'd think me crazy, right?
druth Vlodovic: not if you tested it to see if it did accord with reality
druth Vlodovic: of course, if you didn't then I'd just call you religious :P
Aphrodite Macbain: are we talking about the scientific method?
Bleu Oleander: hi Zen
Zen Arado: Hi all
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Zen
Bruce Mowbray: There it is, druth! That's what the TED talk dude said we need to do --- test it with "reality." and that is exactly what I disagree with.
druth Vlodovic: hey zen, we were just talking about you
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Bruce Mowbray: YAYYY! Zen can help dig us out.
druth Vlodovic: how so?
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: dig you further in
Aphrodite Macbain: why do you disagree Bruce?
Bleu Oleander: what do you disagree with?
Bruce Mowbray: I disagree because of MIND.
Aphrodite Macbain: we are trying to figure out what reality is Zen
druth Vlodovic: M.I.N.D.?
Aphrodite Macbain: ?
Bruce Mowbray: Not everything in MIND can be tested against a physical reality, so called.
Zen Arado: don't think there is one
Zen Arado: qed ;)
Aphrodite Macbain: what's making you think Zen?
Zen Arado: no idea
Aphrodite Macbain: your mind
Bleu Oleander: do you believe mind is something apart from the physical universe?
Aphrodite Macbain: no
Bruce Mowbray runs to get a glass of water to cool of his mind.... brb.
Aphrodite Macbain: It is embodied
druth Vlodovic: see, this is why we need a less emotionally charged word than "real"
Zen Arado: what happens if you aren't thinking?
Aphrodite Macbain: what would you propose druth?
druth Vlodovic: since the opposite of real is "fake" or even "unreal" which not what we would want to refer to
Aphrodite Macbain: thinking is always happening at some level
Zen Arado: don't thoughts just come into your mind- whatever it is
Aphrodite Macbain: truth? another word for real?
Zen Arado: ?
Bleu Oleander: I've never experienced a moment of not thinking, because if I became conscious of not thinking I'd be thinking :)
Aphrodite Macbain: it is created by our mind- all those electrical synapses
Zen Arado: yeh but we made these words up
druth Vlodovic: electro chemicals generate them according to physical properties
Aphrodite Macbain: exactly Bleu
Bruce Mowbray: the "opposite of real" might be illusory, imagined, or other things -- that are still "real" in themselves and MUCH worth looking at (thus, Vipassana).
Zen Arado: they only point to something
Aphrodite Macbain wonders if my mind has fingers
Bruce Mowbray: TOOOO reductionist, druth! :(
druth Vlodovic: ok, but imagination is the starting point for math
Aphrodite Macbain: why?
Zen Arado: what makes the brain think certain thoughts
Bruce Mowbray: OF COURSE your mind has fingers, and toes too.
Zen Arado: where do they come from?
Aphrodite Macbain: experience, memory, chemicals, electrical impulses Zen
Bleu Oleander: experience and memory
Bleu Oleander: yes
Zen Arado: I have no idea where my thoughts come from
Aphrodite Macbain: really?

Bleu Oleander: reactions to context/environment
Bruce Mowbray: Asking "where thoughts come from" makes the construction of specialness -- Is that appropriate with something like thoughts?
Zen Arado: they seem to arrive out of the blue
druth Vlodovic: hehe, many people are quite upset about the electrochemical model of "mind"
Aphrodite Macbain: a course in neuroscience might be handy - perhaps too reductionist?
druth Vlodovic: but to say "there is a paradigm of reality which exists only in the mind" seems ok
Zen Arado: we are just adopting conventions to speak about this
Bleu Oleander: well different levels
Aphrodite Macbain: of course
Zen Arado: nobody really knows what thinking is
Aphrodite Macbain: that is the only way we can speak Zen
Zen Arado: I know
druth Vlodovic: adopting conventions and "speaking of this" are co-dependent
Aphrodite Macbain: there are many scientists who say they know
Zen Arado: are there Aph?
Zen Arado: don't think so
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- even Buddhist monks
 

Zen Arado: but we think it gives us more than it does maybe?
Aphrodite Macbain: ?
druth Vlodovic: inventing conventions is a bit involved, but worth it
Zen Arado: I have heard famous scientists say that consciousness is a complete mystery
Aphrodite Macbain: Oops Bruce is cooling his mind (Bruce poofs)
Zen Arado: heheh
Aphrodite Macbain: wb Bruce
Aphrodite Macbain: how's the mind?
Zen Arado: I don't mind
Bruce Mowbray: wobbly
Aphrodite Macbain: protected by a hat. Very nice
Bleu Oleander: thinking is not some independent thing ... it's a word we made up to represent a process we also call mind, another word we made up
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Bruce Mowbray: Lost my connection AGAIN.
druth Vlodovic: they say that some cultures consider dreaming to be a real place
Bleu Oleander: some consider SL to be a real place
druth Vlodovic: a place where real exists but is a different real than physical real
Zen Arado: we can't see thinking
Zen Arado: only it's effects
Aphrodite Macbain: no - nor can we smell seeing
Bruce Mowbray: "where real exists" -- how would you know that?
Bleu Oleander: gtg to a mtg y'all
Bleu Oleander: bye for now
Zen Arado: it's purely subjective then?
Bruce Mowbray: bye for now, Bleu.
Zen Arado: bye Bleu
druth Vlodovic: by experiencing it I would guess, what you were referring to earlier (I think)
druth Vlodovic: ttfn bleu
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Blue- I'll be there in 5
Zen Arado: or see seeing
Bruce Mowbray: So if I experience something, is it "real"?
Bruce Mowbray: I experience a dream, let's say.
Zen Arado: depends what 'real' is
druth Vlodovic: it is experientially real, even if a mirage by physical real standards
Zen Arado: and we haven't decided that have we?
Zen Arado: it is an experience yes
Zen Arado: something happened
Zen Arado: that's about as much as we can say?
Bruce Mowbray: (plus a few instruments to extend those senses).
Zen Arado: what if all of our learned concepts and labels suddenly fell away
Zen Arado: wow scary
druth Vlodovic: maybe use phenomenon and whatever the term is for physically there
Aphrodite Macbain: sorry I must go-
Bruce Mowbray: (I'm losing my connection again. ... Time to go. THANKS, Aph and everyone.
Zen Arado: bye Aph
Aphrodite Macbain whispers "bye"
Zen Arado: me too then I guess
Zen Arado: byee
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks everyone
druth Vlodovic: bye all
Korel Laloix: ciao all