2014.03.23 19:00 - Transcending "Win"

Calvino was host for this session....


Calvino Rabeni: good evening druth :)
druth Vlodovic: hey
druth Vlodovic: was wondering if I'd be alone here :)
Calvino Rabeni: been here a while?
druth Vlodovic: just ten min
druth Vlodovic: been gone a while,this is the first I noticed the guardian board is gone
Calvino Rabeni: its been gone a few weeks I think, but I don't know what became of it

druth Vlodovic: do we still do themes?

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: I'm out of touch, I'm afraid, with the Guardian intentions lately
Calvino Rabeni: Do you like themes / would you have one to suggest?

druth Vlodovic: I guess we must self-motivate then ;-/
Calvino Rabeni: that sounds hmmm, I hope you don't mind, but a but under-exciting, what do you think about the theme of "self motivation"
Calvino Rabeni: :)
druth Vlodovic: lol

druth Vlodovic: I almost suggested "winding down" whoch seems inappropriate for spring
Calvino Rabeni: maybe "clear the decks"
druth Vlodovic: the decks are never really clear
druth Vlodovic: always some sort of debris
druth Vlodovic: it seems
Calvino Rabeni: like the shipwreck already happened huh ...

druth Vlodovic: shipwrecks create life
Calvino Rabeni: life, the full catastrophe
druth Vlodovic: seen some interesting shows on how much sealife loves old battleships
druth Vlodovic: the difference between a happy ending and a sad one is often where you stop telling the story
Calvino Rabeni: perhaps because to them it is NEW! FRESH! Unoccupied!
druth Vlodovic: and yummy :)
Calvino Rabeni: if wooden
druth Vlodovic: often the sea is a desert due to lack of iron, interestingly
druth Vlodovic: or cellulose perhaps :)
druth Vlodovic: alien
druth Vlodovic: this is new and therefore interesting and magical
druth Vlodovic: :)

druth Vlodovic: I enjoy debates where you all try to find holes in other's reasoning,and examine the holes in one's own
druth Vlodovic: here I seem to engage in filling holes and finding connections

Calvino Rabeni: there's often big hole between two positions
Calvino Rabeni: and a seeming blindness to see it
druth Vlodovic: oh?
druth Vlodovic: brb
druth Vlodovic: bk

Calvino Rabeni: for example, atheists and theists, having a pointless debate about the nature and origins of life, or, maybe an easier one, the nature of belief
druth Vlodovic: lol,the nature of belief would seem the more personal and dangerous

--BELL--

druth Vlodovic: I have met religious atheists and "reasonable" xtians, by my definitions, of course
druth Vlodovic: perhaps we need new categories
Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking, one of the main dangers is the mind numbing boredom of fixated ideological positions and postures
druth Vlodovic: evangelical vs LALL's
Calvino Rabeni: nothing , as you were saying earlier, ever new

druth Vlodovic: IDIC
druth Vlodovic: infinite diversity in infinite combinations
druth Vlodovic: which dovetails interestingly with "there is nothing new under the sun"
Calvino Rabeni: well you get the battle of the fundamentalists ... on the theist side, the religious fundamentalists, on the atheist side, the logical positivists, none commited to budge from that position or even acknowledge the fixation
Calvino Rabeni: just an example I've seen lately

druth Vlodovic: if I define a fundamentalist as someone who needs to convert people then we end up placing people in bed with very interesting companions
druth Vlodovic listens for the example
Calvino Rabeni: For example, the idea that science is not a belief system
Calvino Rabeni: well that term is a bit vague, unfortunately
Calvino Rabeni: and "belief" is defined by logical positivists as a dirty word
Calvino Rabeni: meaning "unnecessary and vacuous of truth" or something like that
Calvino Rabeni: but obviously their system depends on "justified belief"
druth Vlodovic: emotional definitions
Calvino Rabeni: and surrounding it there are plenty more, outside the methodology and ideology, that are accepted as axioms or not justified
Calvino Rabeni: occam's razor, for instance
Calvino Rabeni: and the faith in an essentially orderly cosmos
Calvino Rabeni: with essentially simple and understandable or representable rules
druth Vlodovic: by occam's razor you mean the kiss principle?
Calvino Rabeni: all I think, not easy to substantiate within the confines of scientific methodoligy
druth Vlodovic: well, we needtobe careful who is saying what, and in what context

Calvino Rabeni: but in spite of this, "science is not a belief system" is the conclusion of the belief system
druth Vlodovic: let me know when you're done :)
Calvino Rabeni: without an awareness of the possibility of reflexivity
Calvino Rabeni: (done)

druth Vlodovic: well
druth Vlodovic: "science is not a religion" depends on what you mean by science
druth Vlodovic: I see it as a method of approaching, umm,things
druth Vlodovic: examine, question, examine and always know you might be wrong
Calvino Rabeni: I wouldn't go that far "religion", I said, belief system as, system that involves beliefs, some not comprehended by methodology
druth Vlodovic: some forms of spiritual paths urge similar methods
Calvino Rabeni: that degree of examination is foreign to most logical positivists
druth Vlodovic: well
Calvino Rabeni: who "stand on" certain unnamed ideas, usually
druth Vlodovic: people who call themselves logical positivists anyway :)
Calvino Rabeni: i meant the ones who act as if they are but don't label themselves as such
druth Vlodovic: maybe most proper users of logical positivism won't define themselves as such
Calvino Rabeni: if they have done the amount of thinking it takes to self-name, it implies a certain amount of that self-examination

--BELL--

druth Vlodovic: many of the actual feminists I have met would be made uncomfortable by the title "feminist"
druth Vlodovic: due to the corruption of terms inherent in living languages
druth Vlodovic: I can name myself and others with many titles,but what that takes is narrative
druth Vlodovic: if i use fact, observation and logic it becomes more difficult
Calvino Rabeni: but doesn't that imply, there's an uncorrupted state of being that the language represents inaccurately? That's where I question things
Calvino Rabeni: I'd say there is no "it" that is being misrepresented
druth Vlodovic: I'm no lover of Plato
Calvino Rabeni: or that rather "It" is as motly and inconsistent as the language
Calvino Rabeni: though in a more interesting way :)

druth Vlodovic: but if I say "what floats is a boat"
druth Vlodovic: I am obviously wrong
druth Vlodovic: if I say "boats float" then I am less obviously wrong
Calvino Rabeni: yes but consensus objects don't make good exemplars for the kinds of disputes that people end up wasting so much time de3bating :)
druth Vlodovic: more a matter of fitting a definition to a preconception
druth Vlodovic: some would say "religion" needs a god
druth Vlodovic: I would not
Calvino Rabeni: well I feel, often there's a presupposition that the preconception is in some way more perfect and well-defined than it is, and the the definition, with enough work, could be suitably improved to reach faithfulness
druth Vlodovic: I have even heard that for something to be a god it must be omniscient, which shows a misunderstanding of mythology
Calvino Rabeni: a partial understanding, favorable to a singular myth

druth Vlodovic: better to admit that we talk at cross-purposes and seek understanding through explanation or similie
Calvino Rabeni: that might be a good first step, but what is the presumed advantage and result?
Calvino Rabeni: at that point expectations diverge
druth Vlodovic: interesting conversations and excuses to share wine with intelligent folks to start with
Calvino Rabeni: :)
druth Vlodovic: over time I seek to learn when I speak
Calvino Rabeni: well said
druth Vlodovic: which is not always obvious
druth Vlodovic: one wins debates by making friends and learning something
Calvino Rabeni: that seems to transcend the concept of "win"
druth Vlodovic: so if I convince you then you have won the debate, at best I am an accessory to your success
Calvino Rabeni: but I know what you mean
Calvino Rabeni: I thought of another example .. of what, I'm not quite sure
druth Vlodovic: 'k

Calvino Rabeni: there is a christian we site that has a goal of diversity in its ministry
Calvino Rabeni: specifically, it is meant to be gay-friendly
Calvino Rabeni: so its messages have been engineered (my term) to bear a fixed content
Calvino Rabeni: it is "jesus loves you, because you are perfect just the way you are"
Calvino Rabeni: and this message, repeated consistently and relentlessly
Calvino Rabeni: inevitably reinforces the very opposite idea
druth Vlodovic: there must be something wrong with you or you wouldn't need to be convinced
Calvino Rabeni: it becomes, I've been told by interpreters, tiresome and relentless
Calvino Rabeni: exactly
druth Vlodovic: "say something often enough and people will believe it"
Calvino Rabeni: whilst a more savvy communicator, a writer of a similar web site, simply provides that knowledge as the given, the background of other content
Calvino Rabeni: its absurd, really

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: like someone standing on the corner repeating "I can ASSURE you, I'm completely innocent of the accusations"

druth Vlodovic: I gave up superstition as hard, and somewhat more successfully than, the communists, so I fail to understand the continuing need for such bridges
Calvino Rabeni: And the main casualty isn't truth value, but simply motivation, interest, alertness, openness to any kind of creative understanding
Calvino Rabeni: a terrible loss of opportunity for self-definition through creativity and choice
druth Vlodovic: they use it to get even more firmly entangled in the invisible needs that religion created then filled
druth Vlodovic: "you NEED someone to love you and you are completely unloveable,so you NEED NEED NEED GAWD!!!!!!!!!"
druth Vlodovic: sheesh
Calvino Rabeni: it's well meant but a crude understanding of communication and cognition
druth Vlodovic: yes, it still does annoy me :)
druth Vlodovic: it is not well meant

Calvino Rabeni: a message-based fundamentalism that I think could be characteristic of nearly any religious or non-religious group
druth Vlodovic: it is an attempt to shore up what cannot stand on it's own
Calvino Rabeni: sort of like saturation advertising

druth Vlodovic: at least science openly admits that it's straw men can be knocked down, and frequently are
Calvino Rabeni: well, rhetoric of repetition is the assumption that mechanical association adds up to a cognitive change
Calvino Rabeni: conditioned reflex
druth Vlodovic: why else start evey basic science course with "this is a list of al the silly things that science once proved was true but weren't"
Calvino Rabeni: like late nite infomercials
druth Vlodovic: religion isn't about truth
druth Vlodovic: it's about control

Calvino Rabeni: I'm frightfully bored, with either "side" of that philosophical gap ... there must be something wrong with me :)
druth Vlodovic: making people accept things that can't be true is a good step to having them accept the ridiculous and random
Calvino Rabeni: anyway, im afraid also, my hour is up, I have to get to dinner :)
druth Vlodovic: nah,you're just coming to your senses
Calvino Rabeni: thanks for sitting with me, and the chat
druth Vlodovic: have fun cal :)
Calvino Rabeni: take care, be well
Calvino Rabeni: bye :)