2014.08.03 07:00 - Direct Experience, Assumptions, Playdoh

The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.

Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
Bleu Oleander: hey Aggers :)
Agatha Macbeth: Bleuji ♥
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: ♥

* Play Doh, by Jeff Koons . . . questioning our assumptions :)

http://nyti.ms/1qobpbE

Agatha Macbeth: Got here early today
Bleu Oleander: yes! nice to see you
Bleu Oleander: what's happening?
Agatha Macbeth: Dunno :p
Agatha Macbeth: What is happening?
Bleu Oleander: :P same here
Bleu Oleander: nice day though
Agatha Macbeth: Ah, I take it as it comes these days
Bleu Oleander: good plan
Agatha Macbeth: Tomorrow never knows as they say
Eliza Madrigal: 's current display-name is "Eliza".
Bleu Oleander: hiya Eliza :)
Agatha Macbeth: Lizzie ♥
Agatha Macbeth waves
Agatha Macbeth: Over here
Bleu Oleander: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: Hello :) Sorry... bit of lag
Agatha Macbeth: Does take ages to rez here for some reason
Eliza Madrigal: related note - I emailed with Boxy a while yesterday, about the wiki slowness
Agatha Macbeth: Aha
Bleu Oleander: oh great and ...
Eliza Madrigal: he's about to make and suggest some changes that I think will be helpful
Agatha Macbeth: Actually hasn't been too bad for me last few days
Eliza Madrigal: having to do with how the traffic flows through the wiki
Bleu Oleander: ah
Eliza Madrigal: well, he began tweaking a few days ago ^.^
Agatha Macbeth nods
Agatha Macbeth: Wish we could talk him into coming in in person :)
Bleu Oleander: the photos take a really long time for me on the main page
Eliza Madrigal: :) me too, but he sounds content
Bleu Oleander: yes, he was a fun voice in the group
Agatha Macbeth: If he's content that's good
Eliza Madrigal: one of the changes he suggested may take care of my issue concerning finding and posting the logs with the new wiki format (sans 4x a day), so I'm really happy about that too - we're fortunate
Bleu Oleander: sounds great
Agatha Macbeth: It does look a lot better minus all the red ink
Eliza Madrigal nods
Agatha Macbeth: Have you cracked the code yet Liz?
Agatha Macbeth: Hi E :)
Bleu Oleander: hey Eos :)
Eliza Madrigal: Morning Eos :)
Bleu Oleander: nice to see you all
Eos Amaterasu: Hi... sorry for overlapping :-)
Bleu Oleander: goes with the territory :)
Bleu Oleander: overlapping ... fun word for that
Eliza Madrigal: Agatha, you mean the new job? Not really... trying to take it lightly
Eliza Madrigal: did you land in someone's seat, Eos?
Agatha Macbeth: Yep
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Bleu Oleander: mine
Eos Amaterasu: Yours!~
Eliza Madrigal: perfect word, hah
Bleu Oleander: LOL
Agatha Macbeth: Guess lightly is good
Eliza Madrigal: it is what it is, that's for sure
Agatha Macbeth: Agreed :p
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: Cruise ship captain?
Agatha Macbeth: I yam what I yam and I yam what I yam
Agatha Macbeth opens the spinach
Bleu Oleander: lol
Eliza Madrigal: I'm learning a lot, just not sure I'm learning fast enough. I've never had this kind of job before and it is more complex than I imagined when looking for something to fill in the gaps a bit but still leave room for life :)
Agatha Macbeth: Gaps are an acquired art I think
Agatha Macbeth: Like old Parkinson and his law
Eliza Madrigal: "work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion".
--BELL--
Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
Bleu Oleander: indeed
Bleu Oleander: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Or contracts of course...works both ways
Eliza Madrigal: I can't remember a time when I felt less sure about what to do with myself :)
Bleu Oleander: that can be a good thing
Agatha Macbeth thinks of Dudty Springfield
Bleu Oleander: lots of possibilities
Agatha Macbeth: or Dusty even
Eos Amaterasu: thinks of when kids say, "mom, what can I do?"
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Eliza Madrigal: yes, please tell me
Agatha Macbeth: 'What time will we get there?'
Bleu Oleander: lol are we there yet?
Eliza Madrigal: "we never left" ^^
Eos Amaterasu wonders if Pema ever saw those commercials about "put a tiger in your tank"

Eliza Madrigal: commercials?
Agatha Macbeth: Ger-owl
Bleu Oleander: didn't everyone? hehe
Eos Amaterasu: Tony the tiger... I think it was Chevron or something
Eliza Madrigal: I don't think I have
Bleu Oleander: really?
Eos Amaterasu: that dates me :-)
Agatha Macbeth: Wasn't Tony the tiger Kellogg's frosties?

Bleu Oleander: and me lol
Eos Amaterasu: oh, right
Eliza Madrigal: aren't most tigers named Tony?
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Agatha Macbeth: 'They're GRRRRRRRRRREAT
Bleu Oleander: two different tigers here lol
Eos Amaterasu: especially after you step on their tail!
Bleu Oleander: hehe
Agatha Macbeth: I'm pretty sure tiger in yer tank was Esso
Eos Amaterasu: some people are literal-minded
Agatha Macbeth: Hm
Bleu Oleander: does anyone want to describe the experience of picking up a rock without assuming a world or yourself?
Agatha Macbeth: Eh?
Bleu Oleander: just following Pema's emails
Agatha Macbeth: Oh
Bleu Oleander: are you following?
Eos Amaterasu: palm sized rock... slightly cool... smooth survace... nice feeling weight
Eliza Madrigal: Ahhhh okay I'm catching on... seeing there are new emails
Bleu Oleander: a new one from Pema
Eos Amaterasu: hand curls naturally around it
Agatha Macbeth: I would only pick up a rock to see if it had fossils
Eos Amaterasu: ancient tigers
Agatha Macbeth nods
Bleu Oleander: ok but you're assuming the existence of yourself Eos
Eos Amaterasu: I am?
Bleu Oleander: your hand at least
Eos Amaterasu: yes, I can see my hand, and feel it
Bleu Oleander: so some assumptions necessary?
Eos Amaterasu: I have some kind of experience of it being "my" hand
Eos Amaterasu: experiencing the assumptions is all right
Bleu Oleander: background assumptions are a "you" and a "world" and a "rock"
Eos Amaterasu: like when Pema uses the term "acceleration" - that's a highly complex word
Eos Amaterasu: especially for a physicist
Eos Amaterasu: but when I step "on the gas" - ie, step on the pedal (step on the gas is like saying step on the tiger's tail) - the car goes forward faster, and I get pushed back a bit
Bleu Oleander: ok driving cars and picking up rocks ... are not direct experiences
Bleu Oleander: we "think" they are
Eos Amaterasu: I have a feeling that the rock is not "me" in the same way that "my" hand is "me"
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eos Amaterasu: but thinking is also an experience
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eos Amaterasu: I experience thinking... so there's already an "am" or "is" there - you don't need to put Descartes before the horse
Bleu Oleander: yes, we can reflect on our thinking
Bleu Oleander: still assumes a "me"
Eos Amaterasu: it there a difference between experiencing "me" and assuming "me"?
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: related words ... maybe assuming me is more of a background word whereas experiencing me in a conscious way is more upfront perhaps?
Eos Amaterasu: talking to you feels a bit different than talking with myself, interior dialog - but there's also many similarities
Bleu Oleander: very different I think
Bleu Oleander: common language perhaps
Eliza Madrigal: my experience of doing this is a bit different, but I think that is also due to our attempts at conveying to one another
Bleu Oleander: indeed
Bleu Oleander: hard to convey these concepts
Eliza Madrigal: let me post my notes from doing this a moment ago...
Eliza Madrigal: part 1 I go to pick up a small rock that has sentimental value to me, from the dresser. I begin to hold it, notice that four fingers are just right for moving it around to feel all the sides, that one side is smoother than another, that there is a crease. part 2 I see all those ideas in play, as ideas. What if not? The first thing that comes up is that size is in question. Pat 3 As I release my thinking, it isn’t exactly clear that the rocks is small and I am large by comparison. It isn’t even clear that I am holding something.
Eliza Madrigal: that's all I wrote, but actually quite quickly there was more of an interrelatedness that came up, that surprised me. I'm not saying that it isn't an imposed interrelatedness - I can't know that - but that I experience it as a surprise
Eliza Madrigal: *experienced
Bleu Oleander: many assumptions there including you, fingers, dresser, rocks, size relationships, clarity ....
Eliza Madrigal: yes, well part one in particular was not attempting to drop assumptions yet
Eos Amaterasu: experience assumptions?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, take note
Eliza Madrigal: I'm also not saying I'm doing it 'right' since I don't think there is a right/wrong way... main thing is to sincerely try
Eos Amaterasu: I think there are highly charged assumptions that literally affect perceptions and our psycho-muscular stance vis a vis... everything
Bleu Oleander: for me it just sound like you are describing your experience using different words, its not any more "direct" than part 1 ... to me and thats important ... the "to me" part ... we think that others understand what we are trying to communicate ... it goes both ways
Eos Amaterasu: thy are hard to uncover
Bleu Oleander: there is no right way
Eliza Madrigal: but normally that the rock is small and I am large by comparison would be a hidden assumption..wouldn't notice that I 'think' that or impose that
Eos Amaterasu: there may be a progressive way to discover and unearth both assumptions and new experiences
Eos Amaterasu: also sudden ways
Eos Amaterasu: that rope turns out to be a snake
Eos Amaterasu: (or a tiger's tail :-)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
Bleu Oleander: I think the comparison of size is not a hidden assumption ... its a perception that you either pay attention to consciously or not
Eliza Madrigal: well, my own experience was of it as an assumption I'm imposing all the time without realizing it
Eos Amaterasu: there's inevitable mixture of assumption and speculation in our everyday language
Bleu Oleander: but you don't impose it on a rock that is bigger than you, do you?
Eliza Madrigal: in this case I am describing a particular experience
Agatha Macbeth: You'd have a job to pick that up!
Eliza Madrigal: haven't tried with a big rock :)
Eliza Madrigal: maybe that's what tree huggers experience ^^
Bleu Oleander: its a judegment call when we see an object we compare its size to other objects
Agatha Macbeth: Ask Brucie
Eliza Madrigal: right... I think I said that it was
Eliza Madrigal: that I picked up what I saw as a small rock
Bleu Oleander: not an assumption
Eos Amaterasu: sometimes we can discover :"psychosomatic" assumptions
Eos Amaterasu: deeply held assumptions we have been carrying with us
Eos Amaterasu: maybe not even "assumptions" - intentional stances
Bleu Oleander: assumption: something taken for granted: something that is believed to be true without proof (one dictionary definition)
Eliza Madrigal: the judgment comes with the assumption, to my thinking.. but no need for us all to think the same
Bleu Oleander: an assumption might be ... all rocks are smaller than me
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: In this intance I honestly wasn't approaching all rocks, just the one
Bleu Oleander: right, so making a judgement call on the size of the specific rock not making an assumption about the size ... the assumption maybe is that it IS a rock
Eliza Madrigal: that it is a rock is definitely in there too
Eos Amaterasu: yes, it could be a petrified fossil
Eos Amaterasu: but it feels like a rock
Eliza Madrigal: or is my approximation of what I need to follow directions in this instance
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: could be playdoh
Agatha Macbeth: DOH!
Bleu Oleander: duh!
Agatha Macbeth: Playdoh as being perhaps?
Eos Amaterasu: I think part of the value of this kind of bare attention observation is that you can unearth/discover assumptions
Bleu Oleander: playdoh IS being ... big assumption there lol
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eos Amaterasu: I once had the experience of discovering I had had a self
Eos Amaterasu: through experiencing it having dropped away
Eos Amaterasu: like noticing there was noise in the background after it suddenly stops
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
Eliza Madrigal: interrupted
Agatha Macbeth: Seeing holes
Eos Amaterasu: I think that's part of the "play" of Play as Being
Eos Amaterasu: making up little games to see what happens
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: that's one thing that may not be clear in the email discussion - that it isn't just suspending judgment about our intellectual thinking but also magical thinking... in that sense the tiger in the tank is a good example
Bleu Oleander: say more?
Eliza Madrigal: well the tiger in the tank, to me, represents the spiritual learning people (I) may feel I've acquired and therefore project
Eliza Madrigal: I may have specialized language about it
Bleu Oleander: does it make sense to think about a tiger in the tank when we know its an engine? or only as a thought experiment?
Bleu Oleander: does projecting spiritual language on experience make the experience more direct?
Eliza Madrigal: for me it helps to start fresh, when I'm willing to see that some of my thinking is magical imposition
Eos Amaterasu: well, when I turn the key in the car there's something that kind of roars, seemingl under the front hood
Eliza Madrigal: no, the opposite.. that's what I'm saying actually
Bleu Oleander: what?
Eos Amaterasu: "angels push the planets around" vs "gravity pushes the planets around" are both speculative conclusions
Bleu Oleander: what does it mean to say "direct experience?"
Eliza Madrigal: that spiritual language gets in the way too. It has its place, in getting closer to understanding within certain specialized contexts, but for this it isn't useful
Eliza Madrigal: YES Eos >whew<
Bleu Oleander: disagree with that ... big assumption the angels thing
Eos Amaterasu: there are beautiful white dots and smears in the sky is more like experience
Bleu Oleander: but no angels
Eliza Madrigal: right, we're leaving out the angels too
Bleu Oleander: so not experence?
Bleu Oleander: but we can have a much more nuanced view/experience of the sky through a telescope, can't we?
Bleu Oleander: isn't that experience too?
Eos Amaterasu: indeed
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: but I wouldn
Eliza Madrigal: wouldn
Eos Amaterasu: I once saw a globular cluster through a large telescope: it was an amazing experience, stars more brilliant than diamonds
Bleu Oleander: is any of it "direct experience"?
Eliza Madrigal: yikes sorry for weird typing, was stuck. *wouldn't say "more" nuanced... different
Bleu Oleander: direct experience, without assumptions?
Bleu Oleander: well more detailed perhaps
Eos Amaterasu: I think all experience is mediated - through telescope, through eyes, senses...
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bleu Oleander: we "see" with our brains
Eliza Madrigal: amazing though.. in such a circumstance one ceases to experience the telescope in a way, so forefront is the awe
Eos Amaterasu: yes, just as we don't experience our eyes usually when seeing
Bleu Oleander: yes, like one forgets one is wearing glasses
Eos Amaterasu: and that's the thing - there are other things we don't directly experience that affect our seeing experience
--BELL--
Bleu Oleander: exactly
Eliza Madrigal: thanks for a great session
Bleu Oleander: yes thanks all!
Agatha Macbeth smiles
Bleu Oleander: so fun to talk about
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, wonderful - :-)
Eliza Madrigal: I need to go... and won't be able to host guardian session next week... so maybe we'll skip and meet again the following?
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
Bleu Oleander: ok sounds good
Eliza Madrigal: OK :) (((( ))))) yes very fun :)
Eos Amaterasu: Ciao and cheers!
Bleu Oleander: (((( all )))))
Agatha Macbeth: Iechyd da