2014.08.04 13:00 - Brain, Mind, and How Could We Know?

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Eliza.
Eliza Madrigal: nice to see you - how is the day?
Bruce Mowbray: the day is going very well indeed, thank you.
Bruce Mowbray: I visited an antiques shop in a nearby village,
Bruce Mowbray: and I walked out with several items....
Bruce Mowbray: but the really amazing thing was....

Eliza Madrigal: ah, wonderful
Eliza Madrigal: what sorts of treasures?
Bruce Mowbray: oh, some hand made vases
Bruce Mowbray: and other things
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bleu :)
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Bleu!
Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza, Bruce :)

Eliza Madrigal: ...and the amazing thing was....
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bruce Mowbray: well, the really amazing thing had nothing to do with the antiques themselves.
Bruce Mowbray: the really amazing thing had to do with the proprietor,
Bruce Mowbray: whose uncle had died in 1976 and the original legionnaires disease outbreak in Philadelphia.
Bruce Mowbray: so he and I had a lot to discuss....
Bruce Mowbray: since I had the same disease three years ago.
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, my, yes
Bruce Mowbray: anyway it was an amazing experience,
Bruce Mowbray: and then his wife came in,
Bruce Mowbray: and she got wind of what we were talking about,
Bruce Mowbray: and she asked if she could pray for me,
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: and I said well of course...
Bruce Mowbray: ( I can use all the prayers I can get.)
Bruce Mowbray: so she anointed her fingers with some sort of oil,
Bruce Mowbray: came around to where I was and touched me on the neck right underneath my earlobes,
Bruce Mowbray: and then she prayed -- a very Christian, biblical sort of prayer...
Bruce Mowbray: ( reminding God of all he had promised, if we simply prayed in Jesus name, etc. etc....)
Bruce Mowbray: and when she was finished, all three of us said amen,
Bruce Mowbray: and I thank you very much, and I told her she had just made my day.

Bleu Oleander: hey Aggers :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Agatha :)
Agatha Macbeth: Evening all
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, aggers!
Eliza Madrigal: I'll IM you the story Bruce just told us
Bruce Mowbray: so, , how was your day, Eliza? and how was your day, Bleu?
Bruce Mowbray: and how was your day, aggers?
Agatha Macbeth: Productive
Bleu Oleander: mine is good ... mid way
Eliza Madrigal: Well Bruce, first let me ask... you have largely recovered now yes?
Agatha Macbeth: What are you holding Liz?
Eliza Madrigal: a bear
Agatha Macbeth: Oh a bear
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: How cute
Bruce Mowbray: I no longer have the disease, but I have the aftereffects of it... which will be with me for the rest of my life, of course.
Bruce Mowbray loves Eliza's bear.
Bleu Oleander: bear zooming
Agatha Macbeth: I can't bear it
Bruce Mowbray: and also her butterfly.
Agatha Macbeth: Butterflies and bears oh my

Eliza Madrigal: that's what I wondered Bruce, thank you and glad you're much better, though I understand lingering effects
Bleu Oleander: are the aftereffects disabling Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: well, I'm actually pretty glad to have survived at all, unlike this gentleman's uncle.
Agatha Macbeth: Always good to hear our Brucie is well
Bruce Mowbray: ty!
Eliza Madrigal: :) productive Aggers and good mid way Bleu
Agatha Macbeth: Midway?
Bleu Oleander: mid day
Agatha Macbeth: Wasn't that a battle?
Eliza Madrigal: oh, lol
Bruce Mowbray: the only disabling aftereffect that I'm aware of is that my inner ear is no longer function to give my brain the equation for balance.
Eliza Madrigal: sorry, lazy scrolling
Agatha Macbeth: Oh dear
Bruce Mowbray: therefore, my brain has to get its data or balance from tactile and visual senses....
Eliza Madrigal: is that why you don't travel so well primarily, the balance?
Bleu Oleander: ah difficult to deal with?
Bruce Mowbray: that's a large part of it, and another large part is that my memory lapses are becoming more and more frequent.

Agatha Macbeth: How does it feel when you close your eyes then?
Bruce Mowbray: I get immediately dizzy when I close my eyes, of course.
Bruce Mowbray: when I walk into a dark room.
Agatha Macbeth: Oh man
Bleu Oleander: a friend of mine has vertigo and has a really hard time with it
Bruce Mowbray: and when I take a shower I have to lean against the wall of the shower in order to maintain my balance,
Agatha Macbeth: Awful
Bruce Mowbray: and that can be a little dangerous.
Eliza Madrigal: yes... know that's really hard, just from short bouts
Agatha Macbeth: Yes be very careful of falls
Bruce Mowbray: but enough about me! I am very fortunate to be able to cope with the dysfunctions....
Eliza Madrigal: :) well it is good to check in
Agatha Macbeth higs Brucie
Eliza Madrigal boson Brucie
Agatha Macbeth: and hugs him too
Bruce Mowbray: it's just that when I travel, the dysfunctions of the airlines and the subways and the hostels and everyone else simply present me with more than I can cope with.... so it's best to stay home, I think.
Bruce Mowbray: TY TY TY!
Agatha Macbeth: I remember Rhiannon once referring to the 'Higgs bosom'
Eliza Madrigal: hah
Bruce Mowbray: My own dysfunctions are challenge enough....
Bleu Oleander: :)

Eliza Madrigal: I find myself very conflicted when people pray heavy prayers over or for me, or when, like in the training I went through recently, the default was automatically Christian references
Bruce Mowbray: listens for more about the Higgs.
Eliza Madrigal: on the one hand, I'm so touched because I know where they are coming from
Agatha Macbeth: Yes tell them to bang a gong or something
Eliza Madrigal: (I still keep a prayer cloth someone gave me when I was very ill)
Bruce Mowbray: yes, I used to feel that way too, Eliza. but now, although there is a subtle feeling of humor with their assumption that I am Christian, I'm just grateful for their positive thoughts in my regard.
Bruce Mowbray: people assume all sorts of things about me that aren't true, of course.
Bleu Oleander: goes with the territory
Bruce Mowbray: nods.
Eliza Madrigal: well, but on the other hand I also feel that to just sort of let things go a certain way doesn't help the big picture of cultivating awareness... guess each case is unique
Bleu Oleander: humanland that is :)
Eliza Madrigal: humandland!

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: the thing that would be "heavy" for me would be if some expectation came along with their prayers... I mean, if they then expected me to think and believe and behave as they think and believe and behave... THAT would be heavy, indeed.
Eliza Madrigal nods... what really matters is the compassion at heart
Bruce Mowbray: yes, that's exactly how I feel.
Agatha Macbeth: Indeed
Bleu Oleander: yes!
Eliza Madrigal: I cause my Christian friends a lot of confusion actually... they often start to say something to me then say "well even if you don't believe good things happen for a reason, I will pray for you..."
Eliza Madrigal: things like that, lol
Bruce Mowbray: I'm enjoying reading the compilation of the Pema/Bleu correspondence that Eliza put together.
Eliza Madrigal: they mean really well... just aren't very knowledgeable
Bruce Mowbray: for sure, and that can feel really condescending in my own experience.

Bleu Oleander: nice that Raffi jumped in
Bruce Mowbray: yes apparently Raffi's daughter is a brain scientist.
Eliza Madrigal: Glad to hear Bruce, and yes I agree regarding Raffi, although it came in once again as I just was arriving
Agatha Macbeth: I must ask her where I'm going wrong
Bleu Oleander: yes, haven't had a chance to read it all yet
Eliza Madrigal: going wrong, Aggers?
Agatha Macbeth: Brain
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha ha!
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Bruce Mowbray: if you think you're going crazy you're probably saner than most of us.
Eliza Madrigal: I like the way she articulated her email though... very clear
Agatha Macbeth: Maybe she get the firmware working for me or something
Bruce Mowbray: yes it was very well written.

Bruce Mowbray: I'm hoping shall be able to make it to the voice session at Five Bells on Friday.
Bruce Mowbray: Raffi is the one who suggested we start that up again, at our last Guardian's meeting.
Agatha Macbeth: Suppose Yaku is too busy with family now
Bruce Mowbray: actually he's in Germany, or he was until very recently....
Bruce Mowbray: to be going back to Sweden very soon, though.
Eliza Madrigal: I haven't made sessions on a Friday in a long while, but did anyone make it Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: Ari was there . . . but too shy to speak invoice.
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes takes a few weeks to jumpstart something
Bruce Mowbray: Ari and I had a nice conversation, though.
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, good :)
Bruce Mowbray: yes, I intend to give it the old college try... at least three or four Fridays in a row to see if folks might be interested in starting it up again.
Eliza Madrigal: thanks a lot :)
Bruce Mowbray: yw, but I really enjoy it... in my typist really needs that sort of direct connection with other humans, you know.
Bruce Mowbray: he's such a stay-at-home hermit.
Agatha Macbeth: Haven't heard any PaB voices for ages
Bruce Mowbray: Ari also turned me on to sim where one can get one's voice working properly...
Bruce Mowbray: it worked immediately...
Eliza Madrigal: seems a good idea... voice is so frustrating in SL
Eliza Madrigal: for events.... first 10-15 minutes trying to sort it out
Agatha Macbeth: Glad I don't use it
Agatha Macbeth: Typing is bad enough
Bleu Oleander: I hardly ever use it these days
Bruce Mowbray: (I'd been trying for half an hour to get the voice to work here... but it would not, so Ari gave me a landmark for another Sim . . . and the voice suddenly worked perfectly there.)
Eliza Madrigal: for me it sometimes removes the benefits of SL... being able to walk away and come back and scroll, or even just the restful buffering of communication this way
Eliza Madrigal: but, that said, I've enjoyed PaB voice sessions too :)
Bleu Oleander: thanks Bruce
Agatha Macbeth: Thanks Brucie
Bruce Mowbray: There, each of you has that landmark now.

Eliza Madrigal: so does anyone have thoughts on mind/brain?
Bruce Mowbray: yw.
Bleu Oleander: of course lol
Eliza Madrigal: or questions/comments about the unfolding email discussion you'd like to discuss in real time? :))
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Bruce Mowbray: listens intently and carefully.
Bleu Oleander: is "mind" a useful term anymore?
Agatha Macbeth ponders 'real time'
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: seems no one can really define it
Eliza Madrigal: that's one big reason for its usefulness
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Bleu Oleander: makes it hard to talk about it though
Eliza Madrigal: that there is this experience of it, or so many things we can't explain without it, yet we have no real definition - not even a "working definition" that we can all say "yes that's what it is."
Eliza Madrigal: maybe like dark matter

Bruce Mowbray: just before this session began, I ordered the Kindle version of "Superintelligence" from Amazon... I feel that some insights into how our brains work might be derived from how AI is working to duplicate our brain's functions.
Eliza Madrigal: Ohh yes
Bruce Mowbray: but that may be entirely the wrong fork in the road ( to use Pema's image.)
Bleu Oleander: who wrote that Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: our brains probably don't work anything like our machines that attempt to duplicate them.
Eliza Madrigal: well, maybe wrong fork for current discussion to do explorations together, but not wrong fork to try to understand mind in general
Bruce Mowbray: Borst.. something, just a second I'll find it on my Kindle.
Bleu Oleander: kk
Eliza Madrigal: what do you think Aggers?
Agatha Macbeth: About?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.amazon.com/Superintellige.../dp/0199678111

--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: ah ok I know of Bostrom's work
Agatha Macbeth: Cute owl on the cover
Eliza Madrigal: :)


Bruce Mowbray: Ever since reading Raffi's email, I've been pondering the Cartesian mind-body split thing.
Bruce Mowbray: I mean, since she made quite a strong point of mind being a very different thing from brain.
Bruce Mowbray: it put me in the mind of Cartesian dualism.
Eliza Madrigal nods... the split
Eliza Madrigal: and its true, that's the grapple point
Eliza Madrigal: the reason AI is fascinating is that when people think they understand the brain well enough, they have expected some things to happen faster with robots
Bruce Mowbray: personally, I have no problem at all thinking that mind is a function of physical brain...
Eliza Madrigal: for them to be more intuitive, etc
Bleu Oleander: hard to talk about the mind without the body
Bleu Oleander: genetics, environment, experience, the whole nervous system all contribute to the "mind"
Bruce Mowbray: I mean that consciousness is a product of physical networks doing their thing.
Eliza Madrigal: very well may be the case
Bruce Mowbray: I do know that if my body goes without sleep for a couple of nights, my brain doesn't work so well....
Bruce Mowbray: so would that be physical rest or would that be mental rest? or both, perhaps?
Bleu Oleander: looking at brains with lesions gives some clues
Bruce Mowbray: listens carefully.
Bleu Oleander: damaged parts of the nervous system damage parts of the mind
Bruce Mowbray: nods.
Agatha Macbeth: Here endeth the first lesion
Bleu Oleander: haha
Eliza Madrigal: I have often experienced a kind of "locked in" feeling
Eliza Madrigal: where the mechanisms didn't seem to be allowing me to express what was so apparent... not due necessarily to language access or anything like that... just the sense of being really distant
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps something that might confuse the discussion a bit is how the brain can repair itself ( plasticity) after having been damaged. I experienced this personally, and it is truly remarkable.

Agatha Macbeth: Osiyo K
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Kori :)
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Kori!
Bleu Oleander: hi Kori
Eliza Madrigal: you made it early-ish :)
Korel Laloix: Sorry, been on line for a while be doing some research.
Eliza Madrigal: we're talking about mind and brain
Eliza Madrigal: so please feel free to jump in
Agatha Macbeth: Ah research is good
Bruce Mowbray: sometimes my typist has to search, and research , and research when he's misplaced something.
Korel Laloix: I find it an interesting subject, how pathology in the brain can change our behavior.
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bruce Mowbray: listens once again.
Eliza Madrigal: that's a neat angle, yes.. especially for legal matters
Bruce Mowbray: we were just talking about that, Kori.
Korel Laloix: And how drugs can mess with us is also very interesting.
Agatha Macbeth: Very

Bleu Oleander: my dog has been on drugs this week and he's so different! funny
Eliza Madrigal: aww... how is he?
Bruce Mowbray: wow!
Bleu Oleander: doing great
Agatha Macbeth: Far out Fido
Eliza Madrigal: Good to hear. :)
Bleu Oleander: I think he kinda likes the drugs haha
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Agatha Macbeth: He'll be passing round joints next
Eliza Madrigal: doggie brownies :)
Agatha Macbeth: Yeh
Bleu Oleander: hehe loves his delicious soft food too haha
Eliza Madrigal: Bleu can move to CO and open a shop
Bruce Mowbray: nods, remembers when my farmer's herd of cows eight about a quarter acre of marijuana plants.
Bruce Mowbray: ate (not EIGHT!)
Eliza Madrigal: omg Bruce
Bleu Oleander: doggie joints
Bruce Mowbray: that was 43 years ago!
Bruce Mowbray: I think they're still probably high.
Bleu Oleander: haha
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Agatha Macbeth: And they're still stoned?
Agatha Macbeth: Snap
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Eliza Madrigal: okay, am resisting making mushroom comments... ahem.. back to the brain AND mind, brain OR mind?
Korel Laloix: Sure it happens a lot in Oklahoma, they might as well make MJ the state flower.
Bruce Mowbray: so, if these psychedelic substances can influence the human mind, perhaps there are similar influences that could affect artificial minds, or perhaps " artificial minds" is a misnomer.
Bleu Oleander: haha Kori
Agatha Macbeth: Well they might get a virus
Bruce Mowbray: I wonder what a artificial intelligence program would behave like if it were " high"....
Bruce Mowbray: sounds like it could be a dangerous thing....
Bleu Oleander: pull the plug

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: I think there is a lot to learn from that Bruce, but very hard to keep those experiements going
Bruce Mowbray: I'm looking forward to reading " Superintelligence" because I want to explore the possibility of "autonomy" -- when it is no longer possible for humans to pull the plug on their machines, as it were.
Korel Laloix: brb
Bruce Mowbray: kk, Kori.
Bleu Oleander: I think his ideas are very interesting Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Have you read the book yet, Bleu?
Bleu Oleander: no is it out yet?
Bruce Mowbray: yes it just came out.
Bruce Mowbray: I ordered a copy for my Kindle... just before the session started.
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: ah ok
Bruce Mowbray: it's only 11 bucks.
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.amazon.com/Superintellige.../dp/0199678111
Bleu Oleander: hard cover not till Sept
Bruce Mowbray: yes, but I couldn't wait until then.
Bleu Oleander: haha I probably won't either :)
Bruce Mowbray: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I think there have been advances, perhaps you guys would know more than I... but it used to be the case that AI could learn a scripted appropriate response for something, or a way of behaving... but there was still a big gap in mix matching
Bruce Mowbray: nods.
Eliza Madrigal: if I'm not mistaken though, there have been some leaps
Agatha Macbeth: Quantum leaps maybe
Eliza Madrigal: and I do wonder about where that might be... if just in the smoothness of accessing info for appropriate response..or really something closer to something that might look like intuition

Eliza Madrigal: Hi ContreCourant... very long time no see
Agatha Macbeth: Intuition, there's a word
Bleu Oleander: hi Contre
Bruce Mowbray: it seems that the " leaps" and " triggers" may come from heuristics. . . the ability, built into the code of the program, that enables the device to become more and more intelligent - - in other words, enables it to learn more and more.
ContreCourant Resident: Hello smiles
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Contre!
Bruce Mowbray: (ooops, wrong hotkey, sry.)
Bruce Mowbray: Yikes!
Bruce Mowbray: (not so intelligent of my typist!)
Agatha Macbeth: Let Blub do the typing instead
Bruce Mowbray: GREAT idea!
Agatha Macbeth: Get his fins going
Bruce Mowbray: go fins go!
Eliza Madrigal: to me it seems a whole different channel... being able to access information, vs accessing the finesse and insight to express the information in unique ways
Bruce Mowbray: yes, I agree, Eilza, and if you saw the Jeopardy program in which the computer beat the two best Jeopardy contestants ever, then you saw a demonstration of that.
Eliza Madrigal: I did see parts of that
Eliza Madrigal: watson?
Bruce Mowbray: the computer's ability to access information was phenomenal - that's why it won! but it was completely unoriginal, uncreative, and nonspontaneous.
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Bruce Mowbray: yes, Watson.
Eliza Madrigal: but in chess I think, there has been some progression in the 'way' the computer thinks
ContreCourant Resident: elementary
Agatha Macbeth: Elementary
Agatha Macbeth: Snap
ContreCourant Resident: snap
Bleu Oleander: nothing quite like the human brain yet
Bruce Mowbray: snapperooooo.
Eliza Madrigal: (if its okay to say a computer thinks :P)
ContreCourant Resident: laughs
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles

Bruce Mowbray: a computer performs reasoning functions....
Bruce Mowbray: if that's your definition of "thought," then computers do indeed think.
Bruce Mowbray: but thinking is far more than reasoning.....
Eliza Madrigal: I used to watch a 'GO' anime.. and the character was constantly in search of "the divine move"
Agatha Macbeth: So
Eliza Madrigal: so the expertise of the game and playing against better and better but really they're all after this moment when they experience or witness the creative leap
Agatha Macbeth: Sounds almost religious
Bruce Mowbray: can anyone even begin to think that Watson enjoyed his victory?
Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
Eliza Madrigal: @Aggers, yes
Eliza Madrigal: thinking, Bruce....good question
Agatha Macbeth: @Liz ♥
Bleu Oleander: how would we know?

Bruce Mowbray: well, how would we know that any other mind besides our own enjoys, knows, or thinks anything?
Agatha Macbeth: Which Watson are we talking about?
Bleu Oleander: not sure I'm able to know that about any humans either for sure
Eliza Madrigal: robotics is a serious ethical issue for this reason.. and prob a future rights issue
Bruce Mowbray: other minds express themselves to us, and that's the only possible way we would know.
ContreCourant Resident: a smile might help
Bruce Mowbray: Watson on the Jeopardy TV show.
ContreCourant Resident: unless it's a computer
Bleu Oleander: well, we're working on other species too on that question
Agatha Macbeth: No idea what that is sorry
Bruce Mowbray: the IBM computer named Watson beat the two best contestants ever - ever in history on the Jeopardy TV show.
Bruce Mowbray: I will find you a link, aggers.
Agatha Macbeth: Oh a quiz show?
Eliza Madrigal: indeed Bleu

--BELL--

ContreCourant Resident: maybe watson was smart enough to laugh
Bleu Oleander: I project enjoyment on to my dogs ... are they enjoying their life? dunno
Bruce Mowbray: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFR3lOm_xhE
Bleu Oleander: actually we even have difficulty knowing that about ourselves
Bruce Mowbray: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watson_(computer)
Agatha Macbeth: Food + play = happy dog
Eliza Madrigal: a brilliant point Bleu
ContreCourant Resident: Behaviour is a key ... unless they are pretending to be happy
Bleu Oleander: food + play = happy humans too haha
Agatha Macbeth: I envy mutts their simplicity
Bleu Oleander: even that is an assumption
Agatha Macbeth: Cats on the other hand can be frightfully complex...
Bleu Oleander: :)
Eliza Madrigal: where need and pleasure differentiates is a rich ground too


ContreCourant Resident: you would have to be a very well programmed computer to look happy
Bleu Oleander: I've seen some good human fakes
Bruce Mowbray: (Pay no attention to that programmer behind the curtain....)
Bleu Oleander: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: hah
Eliza Madrigal: I get a different "temp reading" at several points of the day when I do a measure on myself... sometimes it is an objective "things are going well so tharefore I should be happy therefore I must be..."
Eliza Madrigal: or sometimes it is "Wait, stop, experience this!"
ContreCourant Resident: I have been reading about happiness and how it is a superficial way to judge an ability to value life.
Bleu Oleander: I think there are many ways to value life
ContreCourant Resident: Instead, it proposes that ensuring your actions meet your values is the best way to have a full meaningful life
Eliza Madrigal: and many definitions of happiness... but I'd agree generally.. sense of purpose seems entangled with contentment
ContreCourant Resident: sorry - I guess this is way off topic
Eliza Madrigal: not at all
Bleu Oleander: not at all
Bleu Oleander: :)
ContreCourant Resident: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: haha


ContreCourant Resident: and computers dont have a value system, do they?
Bleu Oleander: could
Bruce Mowbray ponders whether his typist's actions are consistent with his values.....
ContreCourant Resident: or existential angst!
Eliza Madrigal: they may have one that is imparted... then it might be just as much theirs
Eliza Madrigal: ours might be a program :)
Eliza Madrigal: I need to go.... promised my daughter a birthday ice cream
ContreCourant Resident: perhaps the programmer instills/installs values into the computer

Eliza Madrigal: but please feel free to stay
Bleu Oleander: I must go too
Agatha Macbeth: Aww
ContreCourant Resident: happy birthday Eliza's daughter
Bleu Oleander: take care all
Eliza Madrigal: was really nice to see you Contre and I hope to see you again
Bleu Oleander: nice to see you all
Eliza Madrigal: thanks
Agatha Macbeth: Happy birthday to S ♥
Eliza Madrigal: bye friends :)
Bruce Mowbray: please do come back, Contre!
ContreCourant Resident: thank you. I will reteeurn
Eliza Madrigal: ♥ ♥ ♥
ContreCourant Resident: aww
ContreCourant Resident: thank you
Agatha Macbeth: 'I'' be back'
Agatha Macbeth: Byee
ContreCourant Resident: bye for now